Calling Trumpistas "Stupid" May Be a Kindness They No Longer Merit - Page 7

Joe Random · 1st August 2019, 12:46 PM

Thread has inspired me. Need to find one of these things now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGwg...youtu.be&t=669

Foolmewunz · 1st August 2019, 04:58 PM

"Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad".

Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?"

It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue.

Pterodactyl · 1st August 2019, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

"Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad".

Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?"

It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue.

Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ?

Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know?

Craig4 · 1st August 2019, 05:10 PM

I'm kind of turning onto the term "magascum". It calls out the obscenity and irony that their kind could ever be of enough value to bring America to greatness. It's also dehumanizing but it takes away their humanity for their choice to betray their country. I hope it catches on. It would be a great thing for the nation if people loyal to this country saw Trump supporters as something less than human.

Foolmewunz · 1st August 2019, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl

Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ?

Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know?

It doesn't really matter. The Quislings will continue to run interference for them and the Chamberlains will continue to explain why we have to understand them and have a dialogue, amirite?

theprestige · 1st August 2019, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

"Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad".

Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?"

It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue.

Have you considered "deplorable"?

There's also "nasty", if you favor giving Trumpistas a taste of their own medicine.

theprestige · 1st August 2019, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

It doesn't really matter. The Quislings will continue to run interference for them and the Chamberlains will continue to explain why we have to understand them and have a dialogue, amirite?

I don't know if you're 'rite', but I am curious. Are you saying the time for understanding and dialogue is over?

Foolmewunz · 1st August 2019, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I don't know if you're 'rite', but I am curious. Are you saying the time for understanding and dialogue is over?

Yes. Yes, I am. WITH TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Supporter does not equal voter. There will be useful idiots who will vote for him for various reasons we've all discussed (with disgust). Pro-Lifers, Fundies Praying for him to die so Bible-Thumping Pence is Promoted, People Who Vote Republican Regardless of the Scumbag Nominated By the Party, ~~Fiscal Conservatives~~ Fans of Huge Deficits, Greedy Bastards.... etc...

I'm talking about the Trumpistas, where the bigotry is not a bug, but a feature. People whose entire political involvement is "I hate people not like me". People who think that Go Back to Africa and Love It or Leave It are propositions that can be intelligently discussed.

Lurch · 1st August 2019, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Yes. Yes, I am. WITH TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Supporter does not equal voter. There will be useful idiots who will vote for him for various reasons we've all discussed (with disgust). Pro-Lifers, Fundies Praying for him to die so Bible-Thumping Pence is Promoted, People Who Vote Republican Regardless of the Scumbag Nominated By the Party, ~~Fiscal Conservatives~~ Fans of Huge Deficits, Greedy Bastards.... etc...

I'm talking about the Trumpistas, where the bigotry is not a bug, but a feature. People whose entire political involvement is "I hate people not like me". People who think that Go Back to Africa and Love It or Leave It are propositions that can be intelligently discussed.

Instead of "intelligently discussed," it's more accurate to say "legitimately discussed" (from their warped perspective.) Intelligence would hardly factor into it.

Minoosh · 2nd August 2019, 12:28 AM

My evangelical aunt came by and talked about how she liked the supermarket in her new neighborhood. She said she didn't like the old one because of ... the clientele. I'm pretty sure there was another word at the tip of her tongue; Hispanics or blacks ... she talked about parents turning their kids loose in the grocery store which sounds like the things people say about Latino parenting.

The thing is, though I can fill in the blank of what she might have meant, she didn't blame minority groups. So I don't call her evil. She's an 82-year-old former farm worker of the Okie persuasion, probably subject to some stereotyping herself back in the day and in turn stereotyping the class beneath her.

But she didn't say that stuff. So I give her the benefit of the doubt. I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts, that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits and that Christians are an especially persecuted group. It's no use, trying to correct her on facts. But something I read talked about talking to people you disagree with and trying to frame issues in a way that appeals to conservative values. That could be universal health care or help with college or job training. I just want to get around this arguing past each other and the mutual demonizing that goes on. I don't think it does any good and probably hurts. I'm inclined to think Dems need some of the 40 percent Trump stalwarts so many people are writing off. Perhaps by floating the idea of Pence as a better candidate. We won't know if we don't listen, if we assume from the get-go that damn near a plurality of voters are evil and beyond any hope of appealing to their human values.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts

They do.

Quote:

that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits

They do.

Quote:

and that Christians are an especially persecuted group.

In many places in the developing world, they are.

Quote:

It's no use, trying to correct her on facts.

Is it any use trying to correct you on the facts?

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Pterodactyl

Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ?

Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know?

No ****, like Sleepy Joe, and Crooked Hillary, and Low Energy Jeb, and Little Marco, etc.

Trust me, if it's one thing Trump and his followers have shown the world, it's that name calling is not only acceptable. It's a key part of the game. The guy can't order his Micky D's without coming up with a name for the person at the window.

"I'll take a Diet Coke, Server Sally!"

Upchurch · 2nd August 2019, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

They do.

They do not.

Clients will occasionally donate fetal tissue for various purposes, but it is illegal to buy or sell. PP will charge fees for shipping and handling the tissue, but not for the tissue itself.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

They do not.

Clients will occasionally donate fetal tissue for various purposes, but it is illegal to buy or sell. PP will charge fees for shipping and handling the tissue, but not for the tissue itself.

Bwahahahaha!

Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling.

I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling?

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bwahahahaha!

Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling.

I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling?

Disingenuous at best.

Upchurch · 2nd August 2019, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Bwahahahaha!

Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling.

I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling?

Maybe the "client donates" part confused you?

Easy enough to prove. Why don't you go to your nearest PP and ask to purchase fetal tissue? If you can exchange money for anonymous fetal tissue, I will concede the point. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating conservative propaganda.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

Maybe the "client donates" part confused you?

The client donating means that PP doesn't buy baby parts. Does the difference between buying baby parts and selling baby parts confuse you?

Quote:

Easy enough to prove. Why don't you go to your nearest PP and ask to purchase fetal tissue? If you can exchange money for anonymous fetal tissue, I will concede the point. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating conservative propaganda.

I can't go down to Boeing and buy an F-15. Does that mean Boeing doesn't sell F-15's? Obviously not. That's a stupid test.

All you've got to go on is this legal fiction that you're only paying for shipping and handling. That's the only defense you have, which is itself just regurgitated liberal propaganda. You can't actually claim that nobody has paid money to PP and gotten baby parts in return, because that has happened. Hell, PP themselves never contested that, they only claimed that they didn't make a profit on the sale.

Upchurch · 2nd August 2019, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Hell, PP themselves never contested that, they only claimed that they didn't make a profit on the sale.

...because they are only charging for the shipping and handling of donated fetal tissue.

Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by Upchurch

...because they are only charging for the shipping and handling of donated fetal tissue.

Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened.

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened.

Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice.

WilliamSeger · 2nd August 2019, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened.

This is totally disingenuous. The intent is to imply that they are profiting from the practice and to stir up outrage over that. You can be pedantic about "selling" but you didn't explain why we ought to be outraged about what they are actually doing.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice.

I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

This is totally disingenuous. The intent is to imply that they are profiting from the practice and to stir up outrage over that. You can be pedantic about "selling" but you didn't explain why we ought to be outraged about what they are actually doing.

I never claimed anyone should be enraged about anything, so why should I explain that? Minoosh didn't say his allegedly ignorant grandma was enraged about PP selling baby parts, or that she thought they made a profit off selling baby parts. Minoosh said that she thought they sold baby parts. And they do. Them's the facts. If you're uncomfortable with those facts, well, that's for you to figure out how to deal with. But not by denying them.

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf.

Because "sales" implies there is a profit, rather than saying "the person receiving the tissue had to pay the cost of getting that tissue." You're poisoning the well and you know it. The thinness of this veil is pretty sad.

You're just trying to use inflammatory language, and we all know why.

ETA: Can you provide a link to a PP representative where they say, "Yes, we sell baby parts"? As that's what you've claimed here.

jimbob · 2nd August 2019, 08:55 AM

And another one goes CT.

Then doubles down and plays at sophistry.

Beelzebuddy · 2nd August 2019, 08:55 AM

What an interesting digression. Direct evidence that you absolutely cannot give any GOP conspiracy theory the benefit of the dumb, because no matter how ridiculous the idea is, nor how manufactured the evidence is, someone smart enough to know better will eventually pick up the thread and see how much farther they can push it.

WilliamSeger · 2nd August 2019, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I never claimed anyone should be enraged about anything, so why should I explain that? Minoosh didn't say his allegedly ignorant grandma was enraged about PP selling baby parts, or that she thought they made a profit off selling baby parts. Minoosh said that she thought they sold baby parts. And they do. Them's the facts. If you're uncomfortable with those facts, well, that's for you to figure out how to deal with. But not by denying them.

But them's not all the facts, are they. You seem to be uncomfortable with the point Minoosh was actually making and decided to deal with it with pedantry.

Upchurch · 2nd August 2019, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Originally Posted by plague311

Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice.

I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf.

No, no. You missed plagu311's first question. If they are selling fetal tissue, what is the cost of the fetal tissue?

Upchurch · 2nd August 2019, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened.

Okay, I have not found where PP admitted to "selling baby parts". What's your source on that?

WilliamSeger · 2nd August 2019, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Quote:

Quote:
that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits

They do.

Such as? I thought the 90s "welfare reform" made sure we don't do that. There might be a few that we still afford to all human beings within our borders, but since you're such a stickler for facts, please name a few.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

But them's not all the facts, are they.

I never claimed they were all the facts (an objection you don't seem to have with Minoosh's original post, strangely enough). But they are still facts.

Quote:

You seem to be uncomfortable with the point Minoosh was actually making and decided to deal with it with pedantry.

Minoosh listed several facts which he apparently thought were false in order to make his point. They were all true. Pointing that out isn't pedantry. If you or Minoosh think you can still make that point without relying on those facts, feel free to do so, but as framed that argument fails, badly.

johnny karate · 2nd August 2019, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?

Yes:

Originally Posted by House Committee on Oversight and Reform

Facts:
Planned Parenthood receives reasonable reimbursement for its tissue donation services, as expressly permitted by law.

Congress passed the NIH Revitalization Act in 1993 with overwhelming bipartisan support.[7]

This law prohibits the receipt of any “valuable consideration” for fetal tissue while expressly permitting “reasonable payments” for costs, including “transportation, implantation, processing, preservation, quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue.”[8]

The Shrike · 2nd August 2019, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Such as?

Illegal immigrants can't get SNAP, SSI, or ACA subsidies, so I suppose the *all* included in all kinds of government benefits negates the argument.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger

Such as? I thought the 90s "welfare reform" made sure we don't do that.

Why would you think that? The 1996 PRWORA which you refer to covered most (but not all) federal government benefits to immigrants, but it did nothing about state or local government benefits.

Quote:

There might be a few that we still afford to all human beings within our borders, but since you're such a stickler for facts, please name a few.

Here you go:
http://www.ncsl.org/research/immigra...mmigrants.aspx

And to make it clear: I'm not trying to argue here whether or not we should provide such government benefits to illegal immigrants. My point is simply that we do.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by johnny karate

Yes:

That actually agrees with what I said. PP receives money in exchange for baby parts. That's a sale. Your source simply claims that the money is such that PP isn't making a profit, but I never claimed they made a profit. And Minoosh never said that his grandma believed they made a profit.

The Great Zaganza · 2nd August 2019, 09:45 AM

wow, simply wow.

Tell me Zig - if a private Clinic did exactly the same thing, would you find that as worth of condemnation?

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

wow, simply wow.

Tell me Zig - if a private Clinic did exactly the same thing, would you find that as worth of condemnation?

Once again, I didn't condemn anything. Seriously, read through this whole exchange. Not once in this thread will you find me having condemned a single thing that PP has done. All I have done is point out what they did, I attached no moral judgment to it. You have only imagined that.

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That actually agrees with what I said. PP receives money in exchange for baby parts. That's a sale. Your source simply claims that the money is such that PP isn't making a profit, but I never claimed they made a profit. And Minoosh never said that his grandma believed they made a profit.

No, it doesn't. Your disingenuous ******** not withstanding.

Ziggurat · 2nd August 2019, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by plague311

No, it doesn't. Your disingenuous ******** not withstanding.

Don't try to lecture me about disingenuousness. I'm not the one claiming that money in exchange for an item isn't a sale.

plague311 · 2nd August 2019, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Don't try to lecture me about disingenuousness. I'm not the one claiming that money in exchange for an item isn't a sale.

You're disingenuous because reimbursement =! sale and you ******* know it. A sale implies there is a profit. Like I said, disingenuous.

ETA: If you buy me gas, and I reimburse you for it. You didn't sell me gas. The original item was donated, so there was no sale there either. Get over it. You're wrong.

1st August 2019, 04:58 PM	#242
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	"Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad". Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?" It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

1st August 2019, 05:38 PM	#245
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by Pterodactyl Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ? Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know? It doesn't really matter. The Quislings will continue to run interference for them and the Chamberlains will continue to explain why we have to understand them and have a dialogue, amirite?
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

1st August 2019, 06:26 PM	#248
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by theprestige I don't know if you're 'rite', but I am curious. Are you saying the time for understanding and dialogue is over? Yes. Yes, I am. WITH TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Supporter does not equal voter. There will be useful idiots who will vote for him for various reasons we've all discussed (with disgust). Pro-Lifers, Fundies Praying for him to die so Bible-Thumping Pence is Promoted, People Who Vote Republican Regardless of the Scumbag Nominated By the Party, ~~Fiscal Conservatives~~ Fans of Huge Deficits, Greedy Bastards.... etc... I'm talking about the Trumpistas, where the bigotry is not a bug, but a feature. People whose entire political involvement is "I hate people not like me". People who think that Go Back to Africa and Love It or Leave It are propositions that can be intelligently discussed.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

2nd August 2019, 06:50 AM	#251
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by Minoosh I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts They do. Quote: that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits They do. Quote: and that Christians are an especially persecuted group. In many places in the developing world, they are. Quote: It's no use, trying to correct her on facts. Is it any use trying to correct you on the facts?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 06:59 AM	#252
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,461	Originally Posted by Pterodactyl Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ? Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know? No ****, like Sleepy Joe, and Crooked Hillary, and Low Energy Jeb, and Little Marco, etc. Trust me, if it's one thing Trump and his followers have shown the world, it's that name calling is not only acceptable. It's a key part of the game. The guy can't order his Micky D's without coming up with a name for the person at the window. "I'll take a Diet Coke, Server Sally!"
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

1st August 2019, 12:46 PM	#241
Joe Random Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,790	Thread has inspired me. Need to find one of these things now : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGwg...youtu.be&t=669

1st August 2019, 05:08 PM	#243
Pterodactyl Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 1,252	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz "Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad". Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?" It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue. Have you considered “big meanies” or “doody heads” ? Coming up with the right name to call people is very important, you know?

1st August 2019, 05:10 PM	#244
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,550	I'm kind of turning onto the term "magascum". It calls out the obscenity and irony that their kind could ever be of enough value to bring America to greatness. It's also dehumanizing but it takes away their humanity for their choice to betray their country. I hope it catches on. It would be a great thing for the nation if people loyal to this country saw Trump supporters as something less than human.

1st August 2019, 05:52 PM	#246
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,523	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz "Evil" is merely being used as a superlative. You gotcher "bad", then you gotcher "really bad", and you could morph to "really horribly bad", but it would get tiresome describing Trump supporters as "really horribly awfully completely utterly bad like slipping peanuts into school lunch bad", so I'm going with "evil" as "most bad". Would you folks prefer "despicable"? "Hateful?" It's so much easier to argue the meaning of the words (where's Belz when you need him?) rather than address the bunch of misanthropic mean-spirited heartless creeps you're siding with in the political dialogue. Have you considered "deplorable"? There's also "nasty", if you favor giving Trumpistas a taste of their own medicine.

1st August 2019, 05:53 PM	#247
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,523	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz It doesn't really matter. The Quislings will continue to run interference for them and the Chamberlains will continue to explain why we have to understand them and have a dialogue, amirite? I don't know if you're 'rite', but I am curious. Are you saying the time for understanding and dialogue is over?

1st August 2019, 09:45 PM	#249
Lurch Graduate Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Ottawa Posts: 1,647	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Yes. Yes, I am. WITH TRUMP SUPPORTERS. Supporter does not equal voter. There will be useful idiots who will vote for him for various reasons we've all discussed (with disgust). Pro-Lifers, Fundies Praying for him to die so Bible-Thumping Pence is Promoted, People Who Vote Republican Regardless of the Scumbag Nominated By the Party, ~~Fiscal Conservatives~~ Fans of Huge Deficits, Greedy Bastards.... etc... I'm talking about the Trumpistas, where the bigotry is not a bug, but a feature. People whose entire political involvement is "I hate people not like me". People who think that Go Back to Africa and Love It or Leave It are propositions that can be intelligently discussed. Instead of "intelligently discussed," it's more accurate to say "legitimately discussed" (from their warped perspective.) Intelligence would hardly factor into it.

2nd August 2019, 12:28 AM	#250
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,231	My evangelical aunt came by and talked about how she liked the supermarket in her new neighborhood. She said she didn't like the old one because of ... the clientele. I'm pretty sure there was another word at the tip of her tongue; Hispanics or blacks ... she talked about parents turning their kids loose in the grocery store which sounds like the things people say about Latino parenting. The thing is, though I can fill in the blank of what she might have meant, she didn't blame minority groups. So I don't call her evil. She's an 82-year-old former farm worker of the Okie persuasion, probably subject to some stereotyping herself back in the day and in turn stereotyping the class beneath her. But she didn't say that stuff. So I give her the benefit of the doubt. I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts, that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits and that Christians are an especially persecuted group. It's no use, trying to correct her on facts. But something I read talked about talking to people you disagree with and trying to frame issues in a way that appeals to conservative values. That could be universal health care or help with college or job training. I just want to get around this arguing past each other and the mutual demonizing that goes on. I don't think it does any good and probably hurts. I'm inclined to think Dems need some of the 40 percent Trump stalwarts so many people are writing off. Perhaps by floating the idea of Pence as a better candidate. We won't know if we don't listen, if we assume from the get-go that damn near a plurality of voters are evil and beyond any hope of appealing to their human values.

2nd August 2019, 07:52 AM	#253
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,373	Originally Posted by Minoosh I think she's gullible and misinformed - she believes that Planned Parenthood sells baby parts Originally Posted by Ziggurat They do. They do not. Clients will occasionally donate fetal tissue for various purposes, but it is illegal to buy or sell. PP will charge fees for shipping and handling the tissue, but not for the tissue itself.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

2nd August 2019, 08:02 AM	#254
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by Upchurch They do not. Clients will occasionally donate fetal tissue for various purposes, but it is illegal to buy or sell. PP will charge fees for shipping and handling the tissue, but not for the tissue itself. Bwahahahaha! Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling. I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 08:06 AM	#255
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,461	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Bwahahahaha! Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling. I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling? Disingenuous at best.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

2nd August 2019, 08:06 AM	#256
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,373	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Bwahahahaha! Pay money to PP, and get baby parts. But that doesn't count as PP selling baby parts. Oh no, we have to maintain the fiction that it's just "shipping and handling fees". Kind of like those TV ads: buy now, and get a second gadget for free! Just pay $19.95 for shipping and handling. I get why the fiction is maintained for legal purposes, but who exactly do you think you're fooling? Maybe the "client donates" part confused you? Easy enough to prove. Why don't you go to your nearest PP and ask to purchase fetal tissue? If you can exchange money for anonymous fetal tissue, I will concede the point. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating conservative propaganda.
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

2nd August 2019, 08:18 AM	#257
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by Upchurch Maybe the "client donates" part confused you? The client donating means that PP doesn't buy baby parts. Does the difference between buying baby parts and selling baby parts confuse you? Quote: Easy enough to prove. Why don't you go to your nearest PP and ask to purchase fetal tissue? If you can exchange money for anonymous fetal tissue, I will concede the point. Otherwise, you're just regurgitating conservative propaganda. I can't go down to Boeing and buy an F-15. Does that mean Boeing doesn't sell F-15's? Obviously not. That's a stupid test. All you've got to go on is this legal fiction that you're only paying for shipping and handling. That's the only defense you have, which is itself just regurgitated liberal propaganda. You can't actually claim that nobody has paid money to PP and gotten baby parts in return, because that has happened. Hell, PP themselves never contested that, they only claimed that they didn't make a profit on the sale.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 08:33 AM	#258
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,373	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Hell, PP themselves never contested that, they only claimed that they didn't make a profit on the sale. ...because they are only charging for the shipping and handling of donated fetal tissue. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

2nd August 2019, 08:39 AM	#259
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by Upchurch ...because they are only charging for the shipping and handling of donated fetal tissue. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 08:42 AM	#260
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,461	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened. Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss

2nd August 2019, 08:45 AM	#261
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Which, again, would mean that they aren't making a profit on the sale, which is what's legally prohibited. It doesn't actually mean that they aren't selling baby parts. They are. People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened. This is totally disingenuous. The intent is to imply that they are profiting from the practice and to stir up outrage over that. You can be pedantic about "selling" but you didn't explain why we ought to be outraged about what they are actually doing.

2nd August 2019, 08:48 AM	#262
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by plague311 Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice. I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 08:51 AM	#263
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger This is totally disingenuous. The intent is to imply that they are profiting from the practice and to stir up outrage over that. You can be pedantic about "selling" but you didn't explain why we ought to be outraged about what they are actually doing. I never claimed anyone should be enraged about anything, so why should I explain that? Minoosh didn't say his allegedly ignorant grandma was enraged about PP selling baby parts, or that she thought they made a profit off selling baby parts. Minoosh said that she thought they sold baby parts. And they do. Them's the facts. If you're uncomfortable with those facts, well, that's for you to figure out how to deal with. But not by denying them.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 08:52 AM	#264
plague311 Great minds think... Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: North Dakota Posts: 8,461	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf. Because "sales" implies there is a profit, rather than saying "the person receiving the tissue had to pay the cost of getting that tissue." You're poisoning the well and you know it. The thinness of this veil is pretty sad. You're just trying to use inflammatory language, and we all know why. ETA: Can you provide a link to a PP representative where they say, "Yes, we sell baby parts"? As that's what you've claimed here.
	__________________ "Circumcision and death threats go together like milk and cookies." - William Parcher “There are times when the mind is dealt such a blow it hides itself in insanity. While this may not seem beneficial, it is. There are times when reality is nothing but pain, and to escape that pain the mind must leave reality behind.” - Patrick Rothfuss Last edited by plague311; 2nd August 2019 at 08:54 AM.

2nd August 2019, 08:55 AM	#265
jimbob Uncritical "thinker" Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: UK Posts: 22,780	And another one goes CT. Then doubles down and plays at sophistry.
	__________________ OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

2nd August 2019, 08:55 AM	#266
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,064	What an interesting digression. Direct evidence that you absolutely cannot give any GOP conspiracy theory the benefit of the dumb, because no matter how ridiculous the idea is, nor how manufactured the evidence is, someone smart enough to know better will eventually pick up the thread and see how much farther they can push it.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,064

2nd August 2019, 09:06 AM	#267
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I never claimed anyone should be enraged about anything, so why should I explain that? Minoosh didn't say his allegedly ignorant grandma was enraged about PP selling baby parts, or that she thought they made a profit off selling baby parts. Minoosh said that she thought they sold baby parts. And they do. Them's the facts. If you're uncomfortable with those facts, well, that's for you to figure out how to deal with. But not by denying them. But them's not all the facts, are they. You seem to be uncomfortable with the point Minoosh was actually making and decided to deal with it with pedantry.

2nd August 2019, 09:07 AM	#268
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,373	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Originally Posted by plague311 Ok, so what is the cost of the baby parts? You should at least have evidence of that if it's such a common practice. I never made any claim about how common it was, only that it happened. And again, this is something PP freely admits happened. There were three related claims that PP disputed (that they made a profit, that they didn't get consent, and that they altered abortion procedure to get the parts), but that sales occurred is not something they have denied. So I'm not sure why you're trying to deny it on their behalf. No, no. You missed plagu311's first question. If they are selling fetal tissue, what is the cost of the fetal tissue?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. Last edited by Upchurch; 2nd August 2019 at 09:14 AM.

2nd August 2019, 09:12 AM	#269
Upchurch Papa Funkosophy Join Date: May 2002 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 32,373	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Of course you don't, because even PP admit that this happened. Okay, I have not found where PP admitted to "selling baby parts". What's your source on that?
	__________________ "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe.

2nd August 2019, 09:24 AM	#270
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Quote: Quote: that illegal immigrants get all kind of government benefits They do. Such as? I thought the 90s "welfare reform" made sure we don't do that. There might be a few that we still afford to all human beings within our borders, but since you're such a stickler for facts, please name a few.

2nd August 2019, 09:27 AM	#271
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger But them's not all the facts, are they. I never claimed they were all the facts (an objection you don't seem to have with Minoosh's original post, strangely enough). But they are still facts. Quote: You seem to be uncomfortable with the point Minoosh was actually making and decided to deal with it with pedantry. Minoosh listed several facts which he apparently thought were false in order to make his point. They were all true. Pointing that out isn't pedantry. If you or Minoosh think you can still make that point without relying on those facts, feel free to do so, but as framed that argument fails, badly.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 09:33 AM	#272
johnny karate ... and your little dog too. Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14,410	Originally Posted by Ziggurat People give them money, and they get a baby pat in return. That's a sale. Do you have any evidence that this is not the case? Yes: Originally Posted by House Committee on Oversight and Reform Facts: Planned Parenthood receives reasonable reimbursement for its tissue donation services, as expressly permitted by law. Congress passed the NIH Revitalization Act in 1993 with overwhelming bipartisan support.[7] This law prohibits the receipt of any “valuable consideration” for fetal tissue while expressly permitting “reasonable payments” for costs, including “transportation, implantation, processing, preservation, quality control, or storage of human fetal tissue.”[8]

2nd August 2019, 09:34 AM	#273
The Shrike Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Oklahoma, USA Posts: 5,147	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Such as? Illegal immigrants can't get SNAP, SSI, or ACA subsidies, so I suppose the all included in all kinds of government benefits negates the argument.

2nd August 2019, 09:37 AM	#274
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by WilliamSeger Such as? I thought the 90s "welfare reform" made sure we don't do that. Why would you think that? The 1996 PRWORA which you refer to covered most (but not all) federal government benefits to immigrants, but it did nothing about state or local government benefits. Quote: There might be a few that we still afford to all human beings within our borders, but since you're such a stickler for facts, please name a few. Here you go: http://www.ncsl.org/research/immigra...mmigrants.aspx And to make it clear: I'm not trying to argue here whether or not we should provide such government benefits to illegal immigrants. My point is simply that we do.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd August 2019, 09:38 AM	#275
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,282	Originally Posted by johnny karate Yes: That actually agrees with what I said. PP receives money in exchange for baby parts. That's a sale. Your source simply claims that the money is such that PP isn't making a profit, but I never claimed they made a profit. And Minoosh never said that his grandma believed they made a profit.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law Last edited by Ziggurat; 2nd August 2019 at 09:40 AM.