Trump's Coup d'état. - Page 10

Vixen · 18th November 2020, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Actually... it pretty much was the same thing. It's speculation based on belief.

Pragmatically, it's not going to happen. The electors aren't going to be faithless and put Trump in office. The states aren't going to replace their electors with those that will be faithless and vote for Trump. The military isn't going to back a coup. At the very worst, come January, the secret service will escort a very grumpy Trump out of the white house.

I would pay to watch that live.

Mumbles · 18th November 2020, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I would pay to watch that live.

"Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?"

"I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!"

"Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"

The Don · 18th November 2020, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Upon further investigation: All the tedious details for anyone interested.
Bottom line: IOW, without MI and GA, Biden still wins.

IMO if these idiots go against their electorate it won't work out well for them, especially given it's no more than an empty gesture.

It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by timhau

He has been successful in conning people into thinking that he is a successful businessman. He even managed to leverage that into a reality TV show which actually made him money.

He cons people but always only for a limited time. When people get a look behind the curtain like seeing Trump is not a skilled POTUS, people are dying, most* of them recognize the con.

*Currently that 'most' is only 7.75 million more than the voters who are still buying into the con. But it is more than half.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.

You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner.

You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't.

Hercules Rockefeller · 18th November 2020, 01:28 AM

Originally Posted by Mumbles

"Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?"

"I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!"

"Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"

The Don · 18th November 2020, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner.

You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't.

I said I thought he had a good chance of winning the election, and have done so throughout his term. He seems to have got much closer than expected - worryingly so.

I also said that I thought that there was a non-zero chance that even having "lost" the election, President Trump would be able to overturn the result. The noises coming from the most senior members of the GOP nationally, the actions of the GOP in locally and at a state level and the pronouncements of several members of SCOTUS indicate that he would have considerable support in attempting this

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 02:59 AM

The Hill: Republicans start turning the page on Trump era

Quote:

Top Republicans are starting to acknowledge publicly that Joe Biden will be the next president of the United States, turning the page on the Trump era.

Congressional Republicans and even a high-ranking White House official have, in recent days, referred to the upcoming change in administration.

National security adviser Robert O’Brien promised a “professional transition” of power, saying it looks like Biden has won the election....

Sen. James Risch (R-Idaho), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, acknowledged Biden’s victory in an interview with The Spokesman-Review, based in Spokane, Wash. ...

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Monday afternoon referred to Biden as the president-elect. ...

Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said it would make sense to give Biden access to intelligence briefings....

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said he didn’t see any evidence that addressing any incidents of voter fraud or miscounted ballots would be enough to erase Biden’s lead in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and other key battleground states. ...

On Sunday, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine (R) told CNN “it’s clear that — certainly based on what we know now — that Joe Biden is the president-elect” and argued “it’s important” that a normal transition of power begin. ...

One Republican senator predicted that more GOP colleagues would acknowledge Biden as president-elect this week. ...

Michigan county reverses course, votes unanimously to certify election results

Quote:

The board of canvassers in Michigan’s largest county reversed course late Tuesday, voting unanimously to certify the election results after initially being deadlocked in a party-line vote.

The Michigan secretary of state’s office confirmed that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers voted by a 4-0 margin to certify the election results in Wayne County, which is heavily Democratic and includes Detroit, and that the board is requesting that Jocelyn Benson, the state’s top elections official, investigate any discrepancies in vote totals.

It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.

angrysoba · 18th November 2020, 03:03 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.

He is trying to make people believe he won.

He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election.

Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that.

You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more.

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 03:16 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

He is trying to make people believe he won.

He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election.

Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that.

You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more.

Not everyone is on the page you describe.

There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con.

I'm pointing that out.

As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case.

Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit.

Do you believe Trump is succeeding?

ponderingturtle · 18th November 2020, 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

There are whack-jobs in state legislatures, I know that. We've had some doozies here in WA.

But the idea the governors and legislators in the states that matter would sacrifice their states' voters on the alter of Trump doesn't fit the evidence.

Sure, see the whole response to Corona virus. Nope no sacrificing people to trump's ego there.

angrysoba · 18th November 2020, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Not everyone is on the page you describe.

There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con.

I'm pointing that out.

As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case.

Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit.

Do you believe Trump is succeeding?

I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this.

I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup".

I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.

Olmstead · 18th November 2020, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this.

I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup".

I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.

Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in?

Horatius · 18th November 2020, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Olmstead

Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in?

It's actually a bit worse than that. You're speaking in the past tense, as if someone had taken a shot and missed. But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...."

d4m10n · 18th November 2020, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states.

Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account.

Dave Rogers · 18th November 2020, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Horatius

But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...."

Actually, some are even saying "When he runs out of ammo, we should probably just let him wander off, because he's sure not to cause any more trouble."

Dave

Craig4 · 18th November 2020, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

It seems that the argument goes something like this...

Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that

State Republicans wouldn't do something like that....
....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that

Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference.......

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.

I'm encouraged by the fact that the Republican leadership has said they won't seat their own electors in both Pennsylvania and Michigan. What concerns me though is that is mostly based on them adhering to political norms. While admirable that they aren't bowing to pressure, all it would take next time this happens would be a few people not as resistant to pressure. This election should be a wake up call that in the short term, we need to shore up our election systems to force the implementation of the will of the people. In the long run, we need to get rid of the electoral college. These games wouldn't matter if the presidency went to the winner of the most popular votes.

phiwum · 18th November 2020, 07:19 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account.

What sort of account do you have in mind?

cosmicaug · 18th November 2020, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by The Don

My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.

We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing.

I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed).

We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani).

Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability).

Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.

uke2se · 18th November 2020, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by cosmicaug

We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing.

I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed).

We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani).

Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability).

Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.

It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base.

The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base.

cosmicaug · 18th November 2020, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by uke2se

It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base.

The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base.

Sure. When I wrote that we all know it's a con I did not mean to imply universality. I meant "all" as referring to thread participants (though it applies equally well to Republican politicians, save for the rare QAnon moron, who are perfectly fine with being complicit in the con).

Mumbles · 18th November 2020, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account.

Particularly in cases like this one, where it's perfectly obvious what's happening as well as what will happen should things continue.

Originally Posted by uke2se

It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base.

The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base.

The other big complaint is "the dems made it about race!" which, when you're outright stating that you want to block the majority-black city over the suburbs, even though the irregularities you're whining about were more likely in several majority-white suburbs, you've obviously "made it about race" yourself, and it's hardly a suprise when the entire public begins pointing that out while snarling and giving you side-eye.

(And as much as many people want to point to Biden's potential loss, I have to wonder what effect, if any, this could have on state and local elections, which many people yet again wish to ignore)

cosmicaug · 18th November 2020, 09:32 AM

This article captures much of how I am thinking about this:
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-coup-election-michigan/

Originally Posted by From the article

Three things remain true in the two weeks since the election: 1. Trump and his campaign persist in trying to engineer a coup. 2. This coup has excited support from grassroots Republican activists all over America. 3. This coup is very badly run and will almost certainly fail. 4. Even as it fails, the coup will do lasting damage to American democracy and could set a precedence for future aspiring autocrats.
[...]
The Trump campaign is trying to hack the election results by using the partisan loyalty of local Republicans, who are an essential part of the machinery of elections. These local officials are being urged to muddy the water of clear vote counts. As Politico writer Tim Alberta notes, “This system of certifying has always been ripe for exploitation by partisan hacks. Now the stars have aligned — a demagogue president, a party bereft of integrity, and an activist base that believes 244 years of democratic norms are expendable if it means 4 more years of power.” Republican donor Dan Eberhart came to the same conclusion, telling CNN that, “Trump has figured out how to weaponize the machinery of government post-election. This is something that happens in a banana republic, not George Washington’s republic.”
[...]
So far, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have figured out how to neutralize Trump’s use of the coup to shore up his own power. As a simple coup attempt, Trump’s gambit is almost sure to fail. One reason the coup will fail is that the election results aren’t really close in the swing states, where Biden’s lead is robust. But in the future if there are closer elections, Trump’s coup will be the model for a successful coup.

As he writes on Twitter:

Quote:

... Trump's clownish authoritarianism makes it hard to calibrate a response: to take Trump's schemes as likely to succeed is to fall into hysteria. To dismiss them as mere distraction is to fall into complacency. Both responses wrong.

lomiller · 18th November 2020, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

The Hill: Republicans start turning the page on Trump era

Michigan county reverses course, votes unanimously to certify election results

It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.

The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to *start* saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long.

Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order.

I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing.

slyjoe · 18th November 2020, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to *start* saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long.

Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order.

I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing.

I thought a court said Wolf was appointed illegaly?

lomiller · 18th November 2020, 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by slyjoe

I thought a court said Wolf was appointed illegaly?

He ignored them and stayed in the role anyway. Courts have subsequently ruled that appointments he made in that time lack legal authority. So far as I know, though, all those people are still filling those roles whether the courts consider it legal or not.

Would he do the same and just ignore a court ruling that Trump isn't the president? I don't think so because it carries much bigger consequences if his department doesn't follow his orders, but the fact that it's possible when it should be unthinkable is worth discussing.

Emily's Cat · 18th November 2020, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Supporting evidence vs no evidence re your false equivalence.

Okay, I'm still very confused. What false equivalence are you referring to?

Emily's Cat · 18th November 2020, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Vixen

I would pay to watch that live.

If he goes all toddlery, I expect we'll all get to see it for free and it will be immortalized on the internet forever.

JoeMorgue · 18th November 2020, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

Okay, I'm still very confused. What false equivalence are you referring to?

Then stay confused. Because you're doing it intentionally.

SuburbanTurkey · 18th November 2020, 11:14 AM

Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies.

Quote:

Replies to the Proud Boys' parley on "Ned": "Ned needs to be killed before he murders an American with an immigrant from Morocco."

"Someone should burn his house down."

"I think a few MAGA PATRIOTS should pay this repugnant radical piece of **** a visit!"

This is ongoing.

https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609

ponderingturtle · 18th November 2020, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies.

https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609

Looks like it is getting time to stop standing by.

phiwum · 18th November 2020, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by lomiller

The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to *start* saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long.

Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order.

I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing.

Chad Wolf isn't a problem. He hasn't been legally appointed to acting DHS Secretary so he doesn't have any powers.

A law and order administration like this one surely wouldn't ignore a ruling like that. So, totally, no problems there!

ETA: Ninja'ed and answered above. I think Iomiller is likely right. Wolf's questionable status makes a problematic fact for Trump and so less likely he'll pursue this option, but not beyond the realm of plausibility.

uke2se · 18th November 2020, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies.

https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609

Time for the feds to arrest some CHUDS.

ETA: I'd say these qualify as terroristic threats, considering they are attacking the democratic process. Nevertheless, authorities could probably go after Parler as a platform as well unless they immediately ban these pieces of filth.

Emily's Cat · 18th November 2020, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey

Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies.

https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609

That guy, as well as those who have posted in agreement with him, need to go to jail for a very long time.

d4m10n · 18th November 2020, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by phiwum

What sort of account do you have in mind?

Having demonstrated open contempt for democratic principles of succession, taking them out of the decision-making process for elections would be a good start.

Shadowdweller · 18th November 2020, 07:15 PM

The Nazi Party was laughed off by the German public after the Beer Hall Putsch as well. If Biden's rhetoric and past history are any kind of predictors, it is, unfortunately, very unlikely that he will mount an effective response of his own volition. Americans are dying as we speak from Trumpist maladministration of the Covid-19 response. It is critical to both the lives of our citizens and the future of our nation that Trumpist partisans and collaborators be held accountable for their misdeeds.

Mumbles · 18th November 2020, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

Time for the feds to arrest some CHUDS.

ETA: I'd say these qualify as terroristic threats, considering they are attacking the democratic process. Nevertheless, authorities could probably go after Parler as a platform as well unless they immediately ban these pieces of filth.

The feds don't have a good record responding to online threats - it's mostly a lot of "Well, buy a gun, hire security if you want, and...um, stay safe out there." We'll see if that changes for low-level government officials, rather than women in gaming and nonwhite people in general.

cosmicaug · 18th November 2020, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm not saying there's a teapot orbiting Mercury. I'm just saying that it's not impossible.

Originally Posted by lomiller

The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to *start* saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long.

Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order.

I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing.

But wait, there's more!

Now they want to take it back!

https://twitter.com/DonovanSlack/status/1329277981492191232

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this.

I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup".

I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.

Have we not exhausted this exchange yet?

Skeptic Ginger · 18th November 2020, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by d4m10n

Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account.

Is there an action plan on any of those links, or just fret-festing?

I don't want to click on them unless there are things I'm supposed to do.

18th November 2020, 12:15 AM	#361
Vixen Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 20,762	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Actually... it pretty much was the same thing. It's speculation based on belief. Pragmatically, it's not going to happen. The electors aren't going to be faithless and put Trump in office. The states aren't going to replace their electors with those that will be faithless and vote for Trump. The military isn't going to back a coup. At the very worst, come January, the secret service will escort a very grumpy Trump out of the white house. I would pay to watch that live.
	__________________ Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder, vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!

18th November 2020, 12:36 AM	#362
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,396	Originally Posted by Vixen I would pay to watch that live. "Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?" "I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!" "Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,396

18th November 2020, 01:18 AM	#364
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,810	Originally Posted by timhau He has been successful in conning people into thinking that he is a successful businessman. He even managed to leverage that into a reality TV show which actually made him money. He cons people but always only for a limited time. When people get a look behind the curtain like seeing Trump is not a skilled POTUS, people are dying, most* of them recognize the con. *Currently that 'most' is only 7.75 million more than the voters who are still buying into the con. But it is more than half.
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 18th November 2020 at 01:19 AM.

18th November 2020, 01:28 AM	#366
Hercules Rockefeller Woof! Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 3,602	Originally Posted by Mumbles "Where would you like us to put these boxes Mr. President?" "I'm not moving out. I WON THE ELECTION!" "Of course you did. I'll place them by the door, the Chief Usher and his staff will be here at 9am to pack everything up for you, so be dressed by then, okay? Great. See you later!"
	__________________ Quantum physics means that anything can happen at anytime and for no reason. Also, eat plenty of oatmeal, and animals never had a war! - Deepak Chopra

18th November 2020, 03:03 AM	#369
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,309	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing. He is trying to make people believe he won. He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election. Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that. You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

18th November 2020, 01:08 AM	#363
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,328	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Upon further investigation: All the tedious details for anyone interested. Bottom line: IOW, without MI and GA, Biden still wins. IMO if these idiots go against their electorate it won't work out well for them, especially given it's no more than an empty gesture. It seems that the argument goes something like this... Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that State Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference....... My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists.

18th November 2020, 01:21 AM	#365
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,810	Originally Posted by The Don It seems that the argument goes something like this... Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that State Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference....... My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists. You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner. You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't.

18th November 2020, 02:46 AM	#367
The Don Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sir Fynwy Posts: 31,328	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger You seriously understate the evidence Trump will be out on Jan 20 if not sooner. You said he'd win the election IIRC. He didn't. I said I thought he had a good chance of winning the election, and have done so throughout his term. He seems to have got much closer than expected - worryingly so. I also said that I thought that there was a non-zero chance that even having "lost" the election, President Trump would be able to overturn the result. The noises coming from the most senior members of the GOP nationally, the actions of the GOP in locally and at a state level and the pronouncements of several members of SCOTUS indicate that he would have considerable support in attempting this

18th November 2020, 02:59 AM	#368
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,810	The Hill: Republicans start turning the page on Trump era Quote: Top Republicans are starting to acknowledge publicly that Joe Biden will be the next president of the United States, turning the page on the Trump era. Congressional Republicans and even a high-ranking White House official have, in recent days, referred to the upcoming change in administration. National security adviser Robert O’Brien promised a “professional transition” of power, saying it looks like Biden has won the election.... Sen. James Risch (R-Idaho), chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, acknowledged Biden’s victory in an interview with The Spokesman-Review, based in Spokane, Wash. ... Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Monday afternoon referred to Biden as the president-elect. ... Sen. Roger Wicker (R-Miss.) said it would make sense to give Biden access to intelligence briefings.... Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said he didn’t see any evidence that addressing any incidents of voter fraud or miscounted ballots would be enough to erase Biden’s lead in Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and other key battleground states. ... On Sunday, Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine (R) told CNN “it’s clear that — certainly based on what we know now — that Joe Biden is the president-elect” and argued “it’s important” that a normal transition of power begin. ... One Republican senator predicted that more GOP colleagues would acknowledge Biden as president-elect this week. ... Michigan county reverses course, votes unanimously to certify election results Quote: The board of canvassers in Michigan’s largest county reversed course late Tuesday, voting unanimously to certify the election results after initially being deadlocked in a party-line vote. The Michigan secretary of state’s office confirmed that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers voted by a 4-0 margin to certify the election results in Wayne County, which is heavily Democratic and includes Detroit, and that the board is requesting that Jocelyn Benson, the state’s top elections official, investigate any discrepancies in vote totals. It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing.

18th November 2020, 03:16 AM	#370
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,810	Originally Posted by angrysoba He is trying to make people believe he won. He is not trying to tell people he is trying to overturn the legitimate result of the election. Some of us here are pointing out that he is trying to do that. You think that pointing out this fact is fear mongering. It is stating pure facts. Nothing more. Not everyone is on the page you describe. There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con. I'm pointing that out. As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case. Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit. Do you believe Trump is succeeding?

18th November 2020, 03:56 AM	#371
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger There are whack-jobs in state legislatures, I know that. We've had some doozies here in WA. But the idea the governors and legislators in the states that matter would sacrifice their states' voters on the alter of Trump doesn't fit the evidence. Sure, see the whole response to Corona virus. Nope no sacrificing people to trump's ego there.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th November 2020, 04:32 AM	#372
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,309	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Not everyone is on the page you describe. There is a way to frame what Trump is doing without falling victim to the con. I'm pointing that out. As far as I can tell I'm the only one pointing out his con is a fail. If one wants to describe his con, say so. If you think he's succeeding, say so but present evidence that is the case. Trump says he's succeeding. The msn reports on his claims with little contradicting of that except to say he's making false claims. That's a start and it's better than they did in 2016 where they were unknowingly complicit. Do you believe Trump is succeeding? I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this. I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup". I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

18th November 2020, 05:12 AM	#373
Olmstead Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 413	Originally Posted by angrysoba I am saying he is attempting a coup. I am explicitly saying exactly this. I said that your position is "Relax, it is only an attempted coup". I don't think anyone doubts he is incompetent and likely cannot pull this off, but it is an attempted coup. Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in?
Olmstead Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 413

18th November 2020, 05:45 AM	#374
Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,008	Originally Posted by Olmstead Yeah, it's a little baffling. Like letting an attempted murder suspect go due to incompetence. But then, what can be done when he apparently has almost half the country on his side and most of the GOP is too scared to rein him in? It's actually a bit worse than that. You're speaking in the past tense, as if someone had taken a shot and missed. But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...."
	__________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd

18th November 2020, 05:49 AM	#375
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,362	Originally Posted by The Don My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin Last edited by d4m10n; 18th November 2020 at 05:53 AM.

18th November 2020, 05:56 AM	#376
Dave Rogers Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD Posts: 32,362	Originally Posted by Horatius But right now the "suspect" is still shooting, and we're all like, "Man, that guy's a bad shot. When he runs out of ammo, we should really do something about him...." Actually, some are even saying "When he runs out of ammo, we should probably just let him wander off, because he's sure not to cause any more trouble." Dave
	__________________ There is truth and there are lies. - President Joseph R. Biden, January 20th, 2021

18th November 2020, 06:55 AM	#377
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,550	Originally Posted by The Don It seems that the argument goes something like this... Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of US Senators doing something like that State Republicans wouldn't do something like that.... ....evidence is provided of State senators doing something like that Well even if they manage it in one state, it won't make a difference....... My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists. I'm encouraged by the fact that the Republican leadership has said they won't seat their own electors in both Pennsylvania and Michigan. What concerns me though is that is mostly based on them adhering to political norms. While admirable that they aren't bowing to pressure, all it would take next time this happens would be a few people not as resistant to pressure. This election should be a wake up call that in the short term, we need to shore up our election systems to force the implementation of the will of the people. In the long run, we need to get rid of the electoral college. These games wouldn't matter if the presidency went to the winner of the most popular votes.

18th November 2020, 07:19 AM	#378
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	Originally Posted by d4m10n Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account. What sort of account do you have in mind?

18th November 2020, 07:28 AM	#379
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by The Don My view is that if they're successful in one state, Republicans will be emboldened to try the same thing in other states. The GOP is still firmly behind President Trump nationally, at a state level and with local activists. We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing. I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed). We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani). Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability). Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

18th November 2020, 07:44 AM	#380
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,180	Originally Posted by cosmicaug We can call it fear mongering but perhaps fear is the proper response. You need to treat a real danger as real in order to manage it. The notion that it magically "can't happen here" because of reasons is an awful framing. Acknowledging that it could happen here is the proper framing. I think he's unlikely to get away with it. Unlikely does not mean impossible, however (though it asymptotically approaches impossible with every passing day). He should not get a pass for his incompetence though: he is attempting a coup (and yes, it counts even if he's not, presumably, counting on the military stepping in —I think it has only been Skeptic Ginger who brought up military support as if somehow it was implied or needed). We have gotten lucky in that this election was not close and that, rather than some alleged decency of state level Republicans, is at least one thing that has kept the sort of shenanigans needed to overturn the election at bay. Trump was not even very subtle about telegraphing an exclusive focus on Pennsylvania & their initial moves were consistent with that. However, the results we got require overturning more than PA, which they clearly had not expected nor planned for (turning the whole enterprise into this bizarrely incompetent improvisational effort now led by the inimitably deranged Giuliani). Right now, the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented & certified their county results because of public pressure. That pressure, presumably premised on outrage at this attempted coup, is as it should be (it's good that everyone did not simply ignore it because it allegedly couldn't succeed). Others are watching what happened with this canvassing board and the fact that it went down as it did matters. If, instead, this had turned into a weeks long certification standoff it also would have mattered (having the effect of possibly emboldening others). GOP politicians are on standby because they are trying to figure out what other GOP politicians are trying to do. Hopefully, this will collapse like a house of cards at some point (but it should not be treated as some sort of inevitability). Calling it a con, is not helpful We all know it's a con. It can be both a con and an attempted coup. It can even be a con and successful. Just look at these last 4 years: if his presidential campaign was a con (which I think it was: I think it is likely that the presidency did not even particularly interest him), then it was a successful con. It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base. The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 Last edited by uke2se; 18th November 2020 at 07:46 AM.

18th November 2020, 08:34 AM	#381
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	Originally Posted by uke2se It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base. The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base. Sure. When I wrote that we all know it's a con I did not mean to imply universality. I meant "all" as referring to thread participants (though it applies equally well to Republican politicians, save for the rare QAnon moron, who are perfectly fine with being complicit in the con).
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

18th November 2020, 08:46 AM	#382
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,396	Originally Posted by d4m10n Precisely, and this is why each small fire must be thoroughly doused and the individual pyromaniacs held to account. Particularly in cases like this one, where it's perfectly obvious what's happening as well as what will happen should things continue. Originally Posted by uke2se It should be noted that for the MAGA morons, the fact that the Wayne County Board of Canvassers relented is proof of conspiracy 'cause they were doxed and threatened to change their votes. Thus, that incident will be taken as evidence of the Democrats stealing the election by roughly half the voter base. The reason for that many people being so detached from reality is the coup Trump and his cronies are attempting. They effectively control the information received by half the voter base. The other big complaint is "the dems made it about race!" which, when you're outright stating that you want to block the majority-black city over the suburbs, even though the irregularities you're whining about were more likely in several majority-white suburbs, you've obviously "made it about race" yourself, and it's hardly a suprise when the entire public begins pointing that out while snarling and giving you side-eye. (And as much as many people want to point to Biden's potential loss, I have to wonder what effect, if any, this could have on state and local elections, which many people yet again wish to ignore)
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,396

18th November 2020, 09:32 AM	#383
cosmicaug Graduate Poster Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,464	This article captures much of how I am thinking about this: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/trump-coup-election-michigan/ Originally Posted by From the article Three things remain true in the two weeks since the election: 1. Trump and his campaign persist in trying to engineer a coup. 2. This coup has excited support from grassroots Republican activists all over America. 3. This coup is very badly run and will almost certainly fail. 4. Even as it fails, the coup will do lasting damage to American democracy and could set a precedence for future aspiring autocrats. [...] The Trump campaign is trying to hack the election results by using the partisan loyalty of local Republicans, who are an essential part of the machinery of elections. These local officials are being urged to muddy the water of clear vote counts. As Politico writer Tim Alberta notes, “This system of certifying has always been ripe for exploitation by partisan hacks. Now the stars have aligned — a demagogue president, a party bereft of integrity, and an activist base that believes 244 years of democratic norms are expendable if it means 4 more years of power.” Republican donor Dan Eberhart came to the same conclusion, telling CNN that, “Trump has figured out how to weaponize the machinery of government post-election. This is something that happens in a banana republic, not George Washington’s republic.” [...] So far, neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have figured out how to neutralize Trump’s use of the coup to shore up his own power. As a simple coup attempt, Trump’s gambit is almost sure to fail. One reason the coup will fail is that the election results aren’t really close in the swing states, where Biden’s lead is robust. But in the future if there are closer elections, Trump’s coup will be the model for a successful coup. As he writes on Twitter: Quote: ... Trump's clownish authoritarianism makes it hard to calibrate a response: to take Trump's schemes as likely to succeed is to fall into hysteria. To dismiss them as mere distraction is to fall into complacency. Both responses wrong.
	__________________ -- August Pamplona

18th November 2020, 09:44 AM	#384
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,348	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger The Hill: Republicans start turning the page on Trump era Michigan county reverses course, votes unanimously to certify election results It's over. It's time to start talking about Trump leaving. We need to stop repeating the fear mongering Trump is trying to make people believe. He's a con man. He's a loser. He's flailing. The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to start saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long. Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order. I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

18th November 2020, 09:49 AM	#385
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by lomiller The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to start saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long. Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order. I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing. I thought a court said Wolf was appointed illegaly?
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

18th November 2020, 09:59 AM	#386
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,348	Originally Posted by slyjoe I thought a court said Wolf was appointed illegaly? He ignored them and stayed in the role anyway. Courts have subsequently ruled that appointments he made in that time lack legal authority. So far as I know, though, all those people are still filling those roles whether the courts consider it legal or not. Would he do the same and just ignore a court ruling that Trump isn't the president? I don't think so because it carries much bigger consequences if his department doesn't follow his orders, but the fact that it's possible when it should be unthinkable is worth discussing.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen"

18th November 2020, 11:03 AM	#387
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 14,754	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Supporting evidence vs no evidence re your false equivalence. Okay, I'm still very confused. What false equivalence are you referring to?
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

18th November 2020, 11:04 AM	#388
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 14,754	Originally Posted by Vixen I would pay to watch that live. If he goes all toddlery, I expect we'll all get to see it for free and it will be immortalized on the internet forever.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

18th November 2020, 11:05 AM	#389
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 30,602	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat Okay, I'm still very confused. What false equivalence are you referring to? Then stay confused. Because you're doing it intentionally.
	__________________ Yahtzee: "You're doing that thing again where when asked a question you just discuss the philosophy of the question instead of answering the bloody question." Gabriel: "Well yeah, you see..." Yahtzee: "No. When you are asked a Yes or No question the first word out of your mouth needs to be Yes or No. Only after that have you earned the right to elaborate."

18th November 2020, 11:14 AM	#390
SuburbanTurkey Philosopher Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Massachusetts, USA Posts: 7,903	Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies. Quote: Replies to the Proud Boys' parley on "Ned": "Ned needs to be killed before he murders an American with an immigrant from Morocco." "Someone should burn his house down." "I think a few MAGA PATRIOTS should pay this repugnant radical piece of **** a visit!" This is ongoing. https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609
	__________________ Gobble gobble

18th November 2020, 11:15 AM	#391
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,412	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies. https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609 Looks like it is getting time to stop standing by.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

18th November 2020, 11:54 AM	#392
phiwum Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 12,718	Originally Posted by lomiller The fact that it took them this long suggests they were weighing the options. The fact that they waited this long to start saying these things adds weight to the "it's a possibility" argument. If it wasn't a possibility there would be no need for them to have thought about it for this long. Another possible coup option for Trump is that anyone who has the legal authority to forcibly remove him from power works either directly or indirectly for Chad Wolf. Even a supreme court ruling would require someone to enforce it, and that someone would ultimately be someone who reports to Wolf. Keep in mind this is the sleazebag who authorized putting children in cages, and that the people ultimately doing that work followed those order. I rate this possibility as very low, but it should be zero and the fact that it isn't is worth discussing. Chad Wolf isn't a problem. He hasn't been legally appointed to acting DHS Secretary so he doesn't have any powers. A law and order administration like this one surely wouldn't ignore a ruling like that. So, totally, no problems there! ETA: Ninja'ed and answered above. I think Iomiller is likely right. Wolf's questionable status makes a problematic fact for Trump and so less likely he'll pursue this option, but not beyond the realm of plausibility.
	Last edited by phiwum; 18th November 2020 at 11:57 AM.

18th November 2020, 12:36 PM	#393
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 14,180	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies. https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609 Time for the feds to arrest some CHUDS. ETA: I'd say these qualify as terroristic threats, considering they are attacking the democratic process. Nevertheless, authorities could probably go after Parler as a platform as well unless they immediately ban these pieces of filth.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1 Last edited by uke2se; 18th November 2020 at 12:46 PM.

18th November 2020, 12:49 PM	#394
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth Posts: 14,754	Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey Proud Boys on parler are calling for one of county officials in Michigan responsible for certifying the results to be doxxed and harassed. Multiple threats of violence in the replies. https://twitter.com/econbrkfst/statu...25482994884609 That guy, as well as those who have posted in agreement with him, need to go to jail for a very long time.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

18th November 2020, 03:57 PM	#395
d4m10n Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Mounts Farm Posts: 6,362	Originally Posted by phiwum What sort of account do you have in mind? Having demonstrated open contempt for democratic principles of succession, taking them out of the decision-making process for elections would be a good start.
	__________________ "Well, a statement like that is all the better for proof, but go on, anyway." - Salvor Hardin