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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 21st January 2021, 06:59 AM   #1481
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This thread was born of fear that Trump would find a way to illegally maintain power, via corrupt judges or some other illegal mechanism.

I think we can safely dismiss that possibility now, so I think it's time to unsubscribe from this particular thread.
We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted.

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Old 21st January 2021, 10:24 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Might be that we are seeing him in more varied circumstances, rather than the controlled conditions of a largely indoor campaign. But he doesn't have to run marathons; all he has to do is appoint competent people and get out of their way, and he seems to be doing that pretty effectively.
The linked report I found from George Washington University was pretty definitive in its assessment of how healthy Biden is. And it went beyond simply parroting what his late 2019 health report from his physician said. They went into some detail about not just his physical health but his cognitive capabilities. They don't project any problems across the board for 4 or even 8 years. He will outlive most people and maintain his faculties well into his later life. He seems to have the benefit of not only good genes - very long-lived family - but also way better than average excercise regimen. Barring any unforeseen complications, I am now completely unconcerned with his health while he is our president.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:52 AM   #1483
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted.

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And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it.
We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:52 AM   #1484
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This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:43 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during
I'm sure he was really antifa.

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Old 21st January 2021, 03:51 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I'm sure he was really antifa.

Lots of jokes about this guy..like "In Court, will he use a Wing defense?'.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:52 PM   #1487
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new Definition of MAGA

Many
Are
Getting
Arerested.
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Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

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Old 21st January 2021, 04:15 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And lots of people are never mentally competent. Humanity is a beautiful rainbow of varying degrees of mental competence! #ThinkPinkOrNotAtAll
Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?
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Old 21st January 2021, 05:47 PM   #1489
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I thought for a while that they should have held off on the arrests to avoid giving Trump anybody to pardon, but that turned out OK. Apparently Trump was able to figure out that doing so would contradict the PR he was trying to put out on this subject.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:37 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it.
We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong.
What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:43 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?
BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:13 PM   #1492
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.
That's impressive. Three weeks ago she got her first pair of shoes and now she's introducing articles of impeachment.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:26 PM   #1493
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.
I have heard from two different T supporters who don't know each other that he couldn't have incited the attack because his speech went on for an hour after the MSM said it had ended.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:39 PM   #1494
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.
I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find.

OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot.
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:59 PM   #1495
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.
And I think we know why: Newsweek: Marjorie Taylor Greene Files Impeachment Articles Against Biden, Fundraises Off Effort

Can you get impeached for things brought up before the election and essentially ignored by voters (If this was a serious bill)?
Quote:
According to a press release posted to Twitter by Greene, the impeachment articles are for Biden's "corrupt actions involving his quid pro quo in Ukraine and his abuse of power by allowing his son, Hunter Biden, to siphon off cash from America's greatest enemies Russia and China."
Benghazi... her emails... ad nauseum.


Oh yeah, and this was during the Obama admin:
Quote:
"President Biden is even on tape admitting to a quid pro quo with the Ukrainian government threatening to withhold $1,000,000,000 in foreign aid if they did not do his bidding. President Biden residing in the White House is a threat to national security and he must be immediately impeached."
This woman has been asleep at the wheel here as far and recent history is involved.


Oh gawd, a holdover from the gaslight world:
Quote:
During her interview she made points similar to those in her statement, saying that "Joe Biden is on record, on the phone, saying that he will withhold a billion dollars of foreign aid if he didn't get his way with these deals with his son."

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Old 22nd January 2021, 12:51 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?
This "mentally incompetent' crap is only recently revived - and demonstrably false given the active and "competent" program he's embarked upon. The other area of misinformation is that he is a mere puppet of the godless, socialist left. They seem to have dropped the "inappropriate touching of women" and the Hunter Biden Ukraine conspiracy - at least for now.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 02:33 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find.

OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot.
Those were the people in the Capitol. I'd like to know what was going on a mile down the road, inside the West Wing of the White House. I suspect that story is yet to be told. There were staffers trying to tell Trump to call off the mob and fielding calls from members in the Capitol.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 06:55 PM   #1498
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Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him.

There is an underlying assumption that the violence at the Capitol was the problem for which Trump should be impeached. It may have been the proximate cause of his impeachment, but it’s not the . . . Hmm, if I knew Augustine better, I’d know the name of what type of cause I mean, and now I’m not even sure if it was Augustine who laid out this typology - sufficient reason that he should be impeached. It’s the subversion of the constitutional process, violent or not.

But the impeachment trial is going to be about the violence, at least from the Republicans.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:14 PM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him.
I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes.
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Old 22nd January 2021, 07:40 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes.
Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 12:47 AM   #1501
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash.
Here is an article about how the impeachment is absolutely Constitutional. It includes links to further in depth articles.

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/22...l-2S4e1BSE&amp
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:59 AM   #1502
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It's being reported that Trump tried to oust AG Jeffrey Rosen to install someone who would work towards overturning the Georgia election results
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Old 23rd January 2021, 06:28 AM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be.

The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind.

Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony.

I, for one, will be tuned in.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:03 AM   #1504
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be.

The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind.

Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony.

I, for one, will be tuned in.
I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 07:57 AM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they should avoid getting into that.



All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.



It really is that narrow.
I'd say everything relevant from the Georgia phone call to the mob storming can be condensed into about a 15-minute summary. Could just cue one of many news channel retrospective pieces that have come out in the last few days to that point and it would be a great introductory argument. They could even use the PBS one. Look, this is government-produced research!
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:00 AM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they should avoid getting into that.
I think the purpose would be to bring to light the extent to which Trump showed he would go to subvert the election, the insurrection at the Capitol being only one aspect.

Quote:
All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.
And all that was needed in the first impeachment was to read the transcript of the phone call. That narrow approach didn’t work, did it?

I say expose as much malfeasance as possible, if only for the history books.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:07 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.
The article of impeachment references "the months preceding the Joint Session" [Jan. 6] in which trump lied about the election, so it is not as narrow as the speech on the Elipse.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 08:23 AM   #1508
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I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems.

Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth?
Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story?
Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months?

Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:04 AM   #1509
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.
But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 09:08 AM   #1510
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems.

Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth?
Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story?
Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months?

Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power?
Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 10:57 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse.
Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 11:16 AM   #1512
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment.
It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton.
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Last edited by Darat; 23rd January 2021 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Reverse causality and trees
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Old 23rd January 2021, 11:18 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy.
His eyesight also becomes very poor and he doesn’t have his glasses with him.

(For those not knowing despite the sarcasm from Beelzebuddy and me our posts accurately describe Trump’s testimony under oath.)
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Old 23rd January 2021, 11:40 AM   #1514
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton.
Yes, IIRC Roger Stone registered the Stop the Steal website in 2016. Trump challenged the election he won in 2016 because everything was in place for his expected loss. When it comes to elections, he's pure scam. Same as with everything else.

Trump planned to attempt to steal the 2020 election long before election day, because this time it looked like he was really going to lose.

I think all of this is relevant to his impeachment.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:32 PM   #1515
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And even if Trump is acquited in the Impeachment trial he is going to face a slew of charges in chriminal courts.
I cuuld be wrong but I think that he could even be charges with the same "inciting to riot" charge ;it would not be considred double jeopardy since the senate trial is not technically a criminal court.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:37 PM   #1516
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We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves:
Quote:
A man from Kentucky told the FBI that he and his cousin began marching toward the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 because “President Trump said to do so.” Chanting “Stop the steal,” the two men tramped through the building and snapped a photo of themselves with their middle fingers raised, according to court documents.

A video clip of another group of rioters mobbing the steps of the Capitol caught one man screaming at a police officer: “We were invited here! We were invited by the president of the United States!”

A retired firefighter from Pennsylvania who has been charged with throwing a fire extinguisher at police officers felt he was “instructed” to go to the Capitol by the president, a tipster told the FBI, according to court documents.
Quote:
Some have said they felt called to Washington by Trump and his false message that the election had been stolen, as well as by his efforts to pressure Congress and Vice President Pence to overturn the result.

But others drew an even more direct link — telling the FBI or news organizations that they headed to the Capitol on what they believed were direct orders from the president issued at a rally that day.
Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol:

Quote:
“I thought I was following my president,” she said. “I thought I was following what we were called to do. . . . He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there. So I was doing what he asked us to do.”
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:40 PM   #1517
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And even if Trump is acquited in the Impeachment trial he is going to face a slew of charges in chriminal courts.
I cuuld be wrong but I think that he could even be charges with the same "inciting to riot" charge ;it would not be considred double jeopardy since the senate trial is not technically a criminal court.
I wish they'd get going on that. What are they waiting for?
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Old 23rd January 2021, 01:45 PM   #1518
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If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:07 PM   #1519
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
I wish they'd get going on that. What are they waiting for?
It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate.
You can't have everything yesterday...
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Old 23rd January 2021, 02:08 PM   #1520
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.
it's fear of the Trump base.
I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP.
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