[Continuation] Trump’s Coup - Part 2 - Page 38

Segnosaur · 21st January 2021, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by Meadmaker

This thread was born of fear that Trump would find a way to illegally maintain power, via corrupt judges or some other illegal mechanism.

I think we can safely dismiss that possibility now, so I think it's time to unsubscribe from this particular thread.

We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

HHellpop · 21st January 2021, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Bob001

Might be that we are seeing him in more varied circumstances, rather than the controlled conditions of a largely indoor campaign. But he doesn't have to run marathons; all he has to do is appoint competent people and get out of their way, and he seems to be doing that pretty effectively.

The linked report I found from George Washington University was pretty definitive in its assessment of how healthy Biden is. And it went beyond simply parroting what his late 2019 health report from his physician said. They went into some detail about not just his physical health but his cognitive capabilities. They don't project any problems across the board for 4 or even 8 years. He will outlive most people and maintain his faculties well into his later life. He seems to have the benefit of not only good genes - very long-lived family - but also way better than average excercise regimen. Barring any unforeseen complications, I am now completely unconcerned with his health while he is our president.

dudalb · 21st January 2021, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Segnosaur

We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted.

Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk

And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it.
We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong.

dudalb · 21st January 2021, 11:52 AM

This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during

Stacyhs · 21st January 2021, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box:

https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during

I'm sure he was really antifa.

dudalb · 21st January 2021, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

I'm sure he was really antifa.

Lots of jokes about this guy..like "In Court, will he use a Wing defense?'.

dudalb · 21st January 2021, 03:52 PM

new Definition of MAGA

Many
Are
Getting
Arerested.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st January 2021, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey

And lots of people are never mentally competent. Humanity is a beautiful rainbow of varying degrees of mental competence! #ThinkPinkOrNotAtAll

Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?

Delvo · 21st January 2021, 05:47 PM

I thought for a while that they should have held off on the arrests to avoid giving Trump anybody to pardon, but that turned out OK. Apparently Trump was able to figure out that doing so would contradict the PR he was trying to put out on this subject.

Craig4 · 21st January 2021, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it.
We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong.

What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.

dudalb · 21st January 2021, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?

BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.

Craig4 · 21st January 2021, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.

That's impressive. Three weeks ago she got her first pair of shoes and now she's introducing articles of impeachment.

slyjoe · 21st January 2021, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.

I have heard from two different T supporters who don't know each other that he couldn't have incited the attack because his speech went on for an hour after the MSM said it had ended.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st January 2021, 11:39 PM

Originally Posted by Craig4

What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.

I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find.

OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot.

Skeptic Ginger · 21st January 2021, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.

And I think we know why: Newsweek: Marjorie Taylor Greene Files Impeachment Articles Against Biden, Fundraises Off Effort

Can you get impeached for things brought up before the election and essentially ignored by voters (If this was a serious bill)?

Quote:

According to a press release posted to Twitter by Greene, the impeachment articles are for Biden's "corrupt actions involving his quid pro quo in Ukraine and his abuse of power by allowing his son, Hunter Biden, to siphon off cash from America's greatest enemies Russia and China."

Benghazi... her emails... ad nauseum.

Oh yeah, and this was during the Obama admin:

Quote:

"President Biden is even on tape admitting to a quid pro quo with the Ukrainian government threatening to withhold $1,000,000,000 in foreign aid if they did not do his bidding. President Biden residing in the White House is a threat to national security and he must be immediately impeached."

This woman has been asleep at the wheel here as far and recent history is involved.

Oh gawd, a holdover from the gaslight world:

Quote:

During her interview she made points similar to those in her statement, saying that "Joe Biden is on record, on the phone, saying that he will withhold a billion dollars of foreign aid if he didn't get his way with these deals with his son."

Tassman · 22nd January 2021, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign.

He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?

This "mentally incompetent' crap is only recently revived - and demonstrably false given the active and "competent" program he's embarked upon. The other area of misinformation is that he is a mere puppet of the godless, socialist left. They seem to have dropped the "inappropriate touching of women" and the Hunter Biden Ukraine conspiracy - at least for now.

Craig4 · 22nd January 2021, 02:33 AM

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find.

OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot.

Those were the people in the Capitol. I'd like to know what was going on a mile down the road, inside the West Wing of the White House. I suspect that story is yet to be told. There were staffers trying to tell Trump to call off the mob and fielding calls from members in the Capitol.

Paul2 · 22nd January 2021, 06:55 PM

Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him.

There is an underlying assumption that the violence at the Capitol was the problem for which Trump should be impeached. It may have been the proximate cause of his impeachment, but it’s not the . . . Hmm, if I knew Augustine better, I’d know the name of what type of cause I mean, and now I’m not even sure if it was Augustine who laid out this typology - sufficient reason that he should be impeached. It’s the subversion of the constitutional process, violent or not.

But the impeachment trial is going to be about the violence, at least from the Republicans.

eerok · 22nd January 2021, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Paul2

Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him.

I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes.

CapelDodger · 22nd January 2021, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by eerok

I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes.

Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash.

acbytesla · 23rd January 2021, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by CapelDodger

Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash.

Here is an article about how the impeachment is absolutely Constitutional. It includes links to further in depth articles.

https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/22...l-2S4e1BSE&amp

Squeegee Beckenheim · 23rd January 2021, 02:59 AM

It's being reported that Trump tried to oust AG Jeffrey Rosen to install someone who would work towards overturning the Georgia election results

Fast Eddie B · 23rd January 2021, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim

It's being reported that Trump tried to oust AG Jeffrey Rosen to install someone who would work towards overturning the Georgia election results

Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be.

The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind.

Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony.

I, for one, will be tuned in.

Darat · 23rd January 2021, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B

Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be.

The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind.

Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony.

I, for one, will be tuned in.

I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.

Delphic Oracle · 23rd January 2021, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.

I'd say everything relevant from the Georgia phone call to the mob storming can be condensed into about a 15-minute summary. Could just cue one of many news channel retrospective pieces that have come out in the last few days to that point and it would be a great introductory argument. They could even use the PBS one. Look, this is government-produced research!

Fast Eddie B · 23rd January 2021, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think they should avoid getting into that.

I think the purpose would be to bring to light the extent to which Trump showed he would go to subvert the election, the insurrection at the Capitol being only one aspect.

Quote:

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

And all that was needed in the first impeachment was to read the transcript of the phone call. That narrow approach didn’t work, did it?

I say expose as much malfeasance as possible, if only for the history books.
.

Paul2 · 23rd January 2021, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.

The article of impeachment references "the months preceding the Joint Session" [Jan. 6] in which trump lied about the election, so it is not as narrow as the speech on the Elipse.

Ladewig · 23rd January 2021, 08:23 AM

I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems.

Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth?
Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story?
Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months?

Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power?

Pixel42 · 23rd January 2021, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

I think they should avoid getting into that.

All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement.

It really is that narrow.

But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse.

Beelzebuddy · 23rd January 2021, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Ladewig

I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems.

Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth?
Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story?
Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months?

Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power?

Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy.

eerok · 23rd January 2021, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Pixel42

But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse.

Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment.

Darat · 23rd January 2021, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by eerok

Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment.

It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton.

Darat · 23rd January 2021, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy.

His eyesight also becomes very poor and he doesn’t have his glasses with him.

(For those not knowing despite the sarcasm from Beelzebuddy and me our posts accurately describe Trump’s testimony under oath.)

eerok · 23rd January 2021, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Darat

It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton.

Yes, IIRC Roger Stone registered the Stop the Steal website in 2016. Trump challenged the election he won in 2016 because everything was in place for his expected loss. When it comes to elections, he's pure scam. Same as with everything else.

Trump planned to attempt to steal the 2020 election long before election day, because this time it looked like he was really going to lose.

I think all of this is relevant to his impeachment.

dudalb · 23rd January 2021, 01:32 PM

And even if Trump is acquited in the Impeachment trial he is going to face a slew of charges in chriminal courts.
I cuuld be wrong but I think that he could even be charges with the same "inciting to riot" charge ;it would not be considred double jeopardy since the senate trial is not technically a criminal court.

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 01:37 PM

We also have the claims of several lawyers representing rioters from Jan. 6 that their clients believed they were just following Trump's instructions. There are also the statements of the rioters themselves:

Quote:

A man from Kentucky told the FBI that he and his cousin began marching toward the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 because “President Trump said to do so.” Chanting “Stop the steal,” the two men tramped through the building and snapped a photo of themselves with their middle fingers raised, according to court documents.

A video clip of another group of rioters mobbing the steps of the Capitol caught one man screaming at a police officer: “We were invited here! We were invited by the president of the United States!”

A retired firefighter from Pennsylvania who has been charged with throwing a fire extinguisher at police officers felt he was “instructed” to go to the Capitol by the president, a tipster told the FBI, according to court documents.

Quote:

Some have said they felt called to Washington by Trump and his false message that the election had been stolen, as well as by his efforts to pressure Congress and Vice President Pence to overturn the result.

But others drew an even more direct link — telling the FBI or news organizations that they headed to the Capitol on what they believed were direct orders from the president issued at a rally that day.

Jenna Ryan, a Texas realtor who has been charged with illegally entering the Capitol:

Quote:

“I thought I was following my president,” she said. “I thought I was following what we were called to do. . . . He asked us to fly there. He asked us to be there. So I was doing what he asked us to do.”

alfaniner · 23rd January 2021, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And even if Trump is acquited in the Impeachment trial he is going to face a slew of charges in chriminal courts.
I cuuld be wrong but I think that he could even be charges with the same "inciting to riot" charge ;it would not be considred double jeopardy since the senate trial is not technically a criminal court.

I wish they'd get going on that. What are they waiting for?

Stacyhs · 23rd January 2021, 01:45 PM

If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.

dudalb · 23rd January 2021, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by alfaniner

I wish they'd get going on that. What are they waiting for?

It takes time too prepare a criminal case, and there is so much to invesrigate.
You can't have everything yesterday...

dudalb · 23rd January 2021, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

If the GOP senators do not vote to convict, it's not because there is not sufficient evidence to do so, it will be because they are putting partisan politics and/or their own ambitions ahead of the good of the country once again.

it's fear of the Trump base.
I think, long term, an acquittal might be the death warrent of the GOP.

21st January 2021, 06:59 AM	#1481
Segnosaur Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 17,104	Originally Posted by Meadmaker This thread was born of fear that Trump would find a way to illegally maintain power, via corrupt judges or some other illegal mechanism. I think we can safely dismiss that possibility now, so I think it's time to unsubscribe from this particular thread. We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted. Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk
	__________________ Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot

21st January 2021, 10:24 AM	#1482
HHellpop Reluctant Galactic Assassin Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ylum Posts: 361	Originally Posted by Bob001 Might be that we are seeing him in more varied circumstances, rather than the controlled conditions of a largely indoor campaign. But he doesn't have to run marathons; all he has to do is appoint competent people and get out of their way, and he seems to be doing that pretty effectively. The linked report I found from George Washington University was pretty definitive in its assessment of how healthy Biden is. And it went beyond simply parroting what his late 2019 health report from his physician said. They went into some detail about not just his physical health but his cognitive capabilities. They don't project any problems across the board for 4 or even 8 years. He will outlive most people and maintain his faculties well into his later life. He seems to have the benefit of not only good genes - very long-lived family - but also way better than average excercise regimen. Barring any unforeseen complications, I am now completely unconcerned with his health while he is our president.
	__________________ "Vootie!" - Mezzrow Last edited by HHellpop; 21st January 2021 at 11:43 AM.

21st January 2021, 11:52 AM	#1483
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	Originally Posted by Segnosaur We can assume that it won't happen now... But there still may be things to discuss... There may be new revelations of plans that the trump administration had that didn't get enacted. Sent from my LM-X320 using Tapatalk And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it. We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st January 2021, 11:52 AM	#1484
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box: https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st January 2021, 03:51 PM	#1486
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	Originally Posted by Stacyhs I'm sure he was really antifa. Lots of jokes about this guy..like "In Court, will he use a Wing defense?'.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st January 2021, 02:43 PM	#1485
Stacyhs Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: United States Posts: 17,993	Originally Posted by dudalb This guy is going to spend a LONG time in the Penalty Box: https://thehill.com/regulation/court...y-stick-during I'm sure he was really antifa.

21st January 2021, 03:52 PM	#1487
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	new Definition of MAGA Many Are Getting Arerested.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st January 2021, 04:15 PM	#1488
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,862	Originally Posted by TragicMonkey And lots of people are never mentally competent. Humanity is a beautiful rainbow of varying degrees of mental competence! #ThinkPinkOrNotAtAll Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign. He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme?

21st January 2021, 05:47 PM	#1489
Delvo Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North Tonawanda, NY Posts: 9,288	I thought for a while that they should have held off on the arrests to avoid giving Trump anybody to pardon, but that turned out OK. Apparently Trump was able to figure out that doing so would contradict the PR he was trying to put out on this subject.

21st January 2021, 08:37 PM	#1490
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,554	Originally Posted by dudalb And the legal fallout from the Storming of the Capitol will go for a while and we need a place to discuss it. We had what amounts to a failed coup attempt. Enough reason to keep this gong. What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol.

21st January 2021, 08:43 PM	#1491
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign. He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme? BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

21st January 2021, 09:13 PM	#1492
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,554	Originally Posted by dudalb BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today. That's impressive. Three weeks ago she got her first pair of shoes and now she's introducing articles of impeachment.

21st January 2021, 11:26 PM	#1493
slyjoe Master Poster Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Near Harmonica Virgins, AZ Posts: 2,556	Originally Posted by Craig4 What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol. I have heard from two different T supporters who don't know each other that he couldn't have incited the attack because his speech went on for an hour after the MSM said it had ended.
	__________________ "You have done nothing to demonstrate an understanding of scientific methodology or modern skepticism, both of which are, by necessity, driven by the facts and evidence, not by preconceptions, and both of which are strengthened by, and rely upon, change." - Arkan Wolfshade

21st January 2021, 11:39 PM	#1494
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,862	Originally Posted by Craig4 What hasn't come out yet is any internal White House chatter on e-mail or whatever chat system they use. I suspect there is still a lot more to learn about what was going on in the White House, particularly from the time the enemy attacked the first barrier and when Trump sent out his, "We love you, you're very special" message. I'd like to hear a lot more from whoever told Ben Sasse that Trump didn't understand why the staffers weren't happy about the attack on the Capitol. I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find. OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot.

21st January 2021, 11:59 PM	#1495
Skeptic Ginger Nasty Woman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 86,862	Originally Posted by dudalb BTW Hillbilly Barbie from Georgia did introuduce Impeachment articles agianst Biden today. And I think we know why: Newsweek: Marjorie Taylor Greene Files Impeachment Articles Against Biden, Fundraises Off Effort Can you get impeached for things brought up before the election and essentially ignored by voters (If this was a serious bill)? Quote: According to a press release posted to Twitter by Greene, the impeachment articles are for Biden's "corrupt actions involving his quid pro quo in Ukraine and his abuse of power by allowing his son, Hunter Biden, to siphon off cash from America's greatest enemies Russia and China." Benghazi... her emails... ad nauseum. Oh yeah, and this was during the Obama admin: Quote: "President Biden is even on tape admitting to a quid pro quo with the Ukrainian government threatening to withhold $1,000,000,000 in foreign aid if they did not do his bidding. President Biden residing in the White House is a threat to national security and he must be immediately impeached." This woman has been asleep at the wheel here as far and recent history is involved. Oh gawd, a holdover from the gaslight world: Quote: During her interview she made points similar to those in her statement, saying that "Joe Biden is on record, on the phone, saying that he will withhold a billion dollars of foreign aid if he didn't get his way with these deals with his son."
	Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 22nd January 2021 at 12:05 AM.

22nd January 2021, 12:51 AM	#1496
Tassman Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,120	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger Which is a non sequitur given there is no evidence Biden is frail or increasingly deteriorating. People are trying to frame it that he is. It's a misinformation campaign. He is obviously doing a good job already. What's with amplifying the false meme? This "mentally incompetent' crap is only recently revived - and demonstrably false given the active and "competent" program he's embarked upon. The other area of misinformation is that he is a mere puppet of the godless, socialist left. They seem to have dropped the "inappropriate touching of women" and the Hunter Biden Ukraine conspiracy - at least for now.
Tassman Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 1,120	__________________ “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” ― Douglas Adams.

22nd January 2021, 02:33 AM	#1497
Craig4 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: I live in a swamp Posts: 22,554	Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger I thought they were told not to text or email but Boebert did anyway. Some reported leaving messages for loved ones. But I'm not sure how much is there to find. OTOH, there is stuff on those cameras about those capitol tours a day or so earlier and I'd bet if Boebert and her mother really were involved they were too stupid to hide it in the days leading up to the riot. Those were the people in the Capitol. I'd like to know what was going on a mile down the road, inside the West Wing of the White House. I suspect that story is yet to be told. There were staffers trying to tell Trump to call off the mob and fielding calls from members in the Capitol.

22nd January 2021, 06:55 PM	#1498
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him. There is an underlying assumption that the violence at the Capitol was the problem for which Trump should be impeached. It may have been the proximate cause of his impeachment, but it’s not the . . . Hmm, if I knew Augustine better, I’d know the name of what type of cause I mean, and now I’m not even sure if it was Augustine who laid out this typology - sufficient reason that he should be impeached. It’s the subversion of the constitutional process, violent or not. But the impeachment trial is going to be about the violence, at least from the Republicans.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

22nd January 2021, 07:14 PM	#1499
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,567	Originally Posted by Paul2 Had the insurrectionists never broken into the Capitol, Trump’s incitement of them to resist - in whatever fashion, violent or not - the lawful process that was unfolding - for instance, to urge Mike Pence to somehow not count the ballots, or to not accept them - is still sufficient reason to impeach him. I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

22nd January 2021, 07:40 PM	#1500
CapelDodger Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Cardiff, South Wales Posts: 25,048	Originally Posted by eerok I agree. Trump's behavior in the two months following the election was beyond ridiculous, and an insult to American democracy. The amount of lying was unbelievable. His false claims were astonishing. Anyone with that much contempt for America cannot be forgiven lightly. There's no reasonable choice but to convict him in his impeachment and forbid him future public office, but we'll see how it goes. Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash.
	__________________ It's a poor sort of memory that only works backward - Lewis Carroll (1832-1898) God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so - William of Conches, c1150

23rd January 2021, 12:47 AM	#1501
acbytesla Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 28,207	Originally Posted by CapelDodger Some Republicans are trying to argue from the Constitution, but Trump's actions were the kind of thing the authors had in mind when they introduced impeachment. They didn't have our long experience of US Presidencies, of course, they were inventing the role, they were less than unanimous about it, and they had sensible doubts. Trump's behaviour is exactly what impeachment is meant to squash. Here is an article about how the impeachment is absolutely Constitutional. It includes links to further in depth articles. https://reason.com/volokh/2021/01/22...l-2S4e1BSE&amp
	__________________ Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get to me. .

23rd January 2021, 02:59 AM	#1502
Squeegee Beckenheim Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 31,243	It's being reported that Trump tried to oust AG Jeffrey Rosen to install someone who would work towards overturning the Georgia election results
	__________________ I don't trust atoms. They make up everything.

23rd January 2021, 06:28 AM	#1503
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,733	Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim It's being reported that Trump tried to oust AG Jeffrey Rosen to install someone who would work towards overturning the Georgia election results Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be. The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind. Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony. I, for one, will be tuned in.

23rd January 2021, 07:03 AM	#1504
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,913	Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B Discussed last night on Rachel Maddow’s show as “Breaking News” - which in this case it seemed to be. The Articles of Impeachment are rather narrow in scope. Still, I think such shenanigans should be brought forward to establish Trump’s state of mind. Again, to me the purpose of the Senate trial is not necessarily to convict - though a conviction would please me. It’s to illustrate what a proper Senate impeachment trial is supposed to look like, with witnesses and testimony, unlike the last charade. And to record for history the objective depths of Trump’s misdeeds. And it will clarify how McConnell himself obstructed justice in the manner the prior impeachment trial was handled, without witnesses or testimony. I, for one, will be tuned in. I think they should avoid getting into that. All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement. It really is that narrow.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

23rd January 2021, 07:57 AM	#1505
Delphic Oracle Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 5,351	Originally Posted by Darat I think they should avoid getting into that. All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement. It really is that narrow. I'd say everything relevant from the Georgia phone call to the mob storming can be condensed into about a 15-minute summary. Could just cue one of many news channel retrospective pieces that have come out in the last few days to that point and it would be a great introductory argument. They could even use the PBS one. Look, this is government-produced research!

23rd January 2021, 08:00 AM	#1506
Fast Eddie B Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA Posts: 6,733	Originally Posted by Darat I think they should avoid getting into that. I think the purpose would be to bring to light the extent to which Trump showed he would go to subvert the election, the insurrection at the Capitol being only one aspect. Quote: All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement. And all that was needed in the first impeachment was to read the transcript of the phone call. That narrow approach didn’t work, did it? I say expose as much malfeasance as possible, if only for the history books. .

23rd January 2021, 08:07 AM	#1507
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	Originally Posted by Darat I think they should avoid getting into that. All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement. It really is that narrow. The article of impeachment references "the months preceding the Joint Session" [Jan. 6] in which trump lied about the election, so it is not as narrow as the speech on the Elipse.
Paul2 Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,587	__________________ It's nice to be nice to the nice. Aristotle, so far as I know, was the first man to proclaim explicitly that man is a rational animal. His reason for this view was one which does not now seem very impressive: it was, that some people can do sums. - Bertrand Russell

23rd January 2021, 08:23 AM	#1508
Ladewig I lost an avatar bet. Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 28,036	I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems. Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth? Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story? Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months? Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power?
	__________________ I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly. Last edited by Ladewig; 23rd January 2021 at 08:35 AM.

23rd January 2021, 09:04 AM	#1509
Pixel42 Schrödinger's cat Join Date: May 2004 Location: Malmesbury, UK Posts: 12,993	Originally Posted by Darat I think they should avoid getting into that. All that is needed in this impeachment is to see or read his speech, then see what happened and if they believe his speech was incitement. It really is that narrow. But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse.
	__________________ "If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett

23rd January 2021, 09:08 AM	#1510
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,065	Originally Posted by Ladewig I wonder if getting Trump to testify would be useful to the Dems. Would Trump be too prideful to plead the Fifth? Would Trump be too arrogant to turn down a chance to tell his side of the story? Would Trump be too childish and impulsive in his reasoning to not conclude that lawyers’ advice is useless because every lawyer has failed him in the past three months? Might he be so simple-minded that if someone said “people are saying, the very best people, that President Trump should be found not guilty because he is not persuasive enough or powerful enough to get an audience to unify and carry out a specific task. Is that true, Mr. President?” he would insist that he had that power and that he used that power? Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy.
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,065

23rd January 2021, 10:57 AM	#1511
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,567	Originally Posted by Pixel42 But Trump was laying the groundwork long before that. That crowd was convinced the election was stolen before they even got there. The barrel of gunpowder was created by his lies, the speech just lit the fuse. Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

23rd January 2021, 11:16 AM	#1512
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,913	Originally Posted by eerok Yes, this is all context, and it needs to be addressed in the impeachment. Trump spent a full two months constantly lying and provoking doubt and anger about the election before he sent his followers to the Capitol. His abominable behavior with Georgia was all part of his plan to steal the election from Biden. All of this is relevant to the larger picture of Trump's failed coup, and his impeachment. It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton.
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you Last edited by Darat; 23rd January 2021 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Reverse causality and trees

23rd January 2021, 11:18 AM	#1513
Darat Lackey Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: South East, UK Posts: 96,913	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy Not unless they're willing to hold him in contempt. Trump has a rare medical condition that gives him total amnesia in the vicinity of witness stands. As soon as you swear him in he won't even be able to recall his own name for the rest of the day, the poor guy. His eyesight also becomes very poor and he doesn’t have his glasses with him. (For those not knowing despite the sarcasm from Beelzebuddy and me our posts accurately describe Trump’s testimony under oath.)
	__________________ I wish I knew how to quit you

23rd January 2021, 11:40 AM	#1514
eerok Quixoticist Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: ON Canada Posts: 3,567	Originally Posted by Darat It goes back much further than that. He was talking about how the election was rigged before he had his “historic” “landslide” victory in the EC, and even after that he claimed that he won the popular vote as well because there were millions of illegal votes cast for Clinton. Yes, IIRC Roger Stone registered the Stop the Steal website in 2016. Trump challenged the election he won in 2016 because everything was in place for his expected loss. When it comes to elections, he's pure scam. Same as with everything else. Trump planned to attempt to steal the 2020 election long before election day, because this time it looked like he was really going to lose. I think all of this is relevant to his impeachment.
	__________________ "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future." - Oscar Wilde

23rd January 2021, 01:32 PM	#1515
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,315	And even if Trump is acquited in the Impeachment trial he is going to face a slew of charges in chriminal courts. I cuuld be wrong but I think that he could even be charges with the same "inciting to riot" charge ;it would not be considred double jeopardy since the senate trial is not technically a criminal court.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.