|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
12th November 2019, 12:28 PM | #241 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
That's what's at issue. If everyone pays in, not just employers, and union members and other workers who previously had their premiums paid by their employers, the employee who starts paying taxes will be spending more out-of-pocket.
I support universal coverage along the lines of Medicare-for-All, but it's unrealistic to imagine that nobody will end up paying more than they do now. One intermediate step, as has been proposed by observers across the political spectrum, would be to treat health insurance benefits as taxable income. That would clarify in concrete ways who is paying how much for what. |
12th November 2019, 12:37 PM | #242 |
Orthogonal Vector
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 53,184
|
Long term that could happen if america say goes to similar medical costs as any other developed nation. As a percentage of GDP we spend the same on socialized medicine as other counties now with out medicare and medicaid, we just can't get that to cover everyone for some reason.
|
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin |
|
12th November 2019, 01:33 PM | #243 |
Poisoned Waffles
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 68,744
|
|
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
|
12th November 2019, 03:36 PM | #244 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
That's one way to look at it. On the other hand, if people who don't make much money are going to have to pay for something themselves that has been part of their compensation, that's the same as a pay cut. Not many would be happy about that. And they are faced with losing a system that generally works for them, and trading it for a vague promise.
|
12th November 2019, 04:07 PM | #245 |
Seasonally Disaffected
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,314
|
That is the point. Between me and my employer we together pay for my insurance, and we pay a lot. If my employer pays the same amount as a health care tax instead of fees to an insurance company, my employer is not spending a penny more, and without the profit motive could be spending somewhat less.
If I pay health care taxes instead of my share of the insurance premium, I am not spending more out-of-pocket. If all the co-pay, deductible, in-network vs out-of-network crap goes away, I come out ahead. |
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. |
|
12th November 2019, 04:10 PM | #246 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
|
12th November 2019, 04:13 PM | #247 |
Seasonally Disaffected
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,314
|
|
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. |
|
12th November 2019, 04:14 PM | #248 |
Seasonally Disaffected
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Chilly Undieville
Posts: 7,314
|
|
__________________
"When you believe in things you don't understand, then you suffer . . . " - Stevie Wonder. "It looks like the saddest, most crookedest candy corn in an otherwise normal bag of candy corns." Stormy Daniels I hate bigots. |
|
12th November 2019, 08:36 PM | #249 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 32,635
|
A benefit of UHC is more freedom. People would not be compelled to stay with an employer they don't like just to keep their health insurance. This means that people could quit jobs they hate and even try to be their own employers without needing to worry about health insurance. This additional freedom is why Trumpublicans and big corporations hate the idea.
|
__________________
1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
|
13th November 2019, 04:39 AM | #250 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
It'll be greatly reduced prices for meds from leveraged bulk purchase discounting, like they've had for forever in the other countries. We're currently being totally price gouged unlike anywhere else in the developed world.
Also, the difference in admin costs between medicare and insurance per person really is a lot, so there's lots of savings there, too. We can do price-setting for hospitals, like in France and Germany, as well. Everything about how we do things currently are as lucrative to profiteers and price-gougers as anyone could ever imagine.
Quote:
|
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
13th November 2019, 05:24 AM | #251 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,797
|
This Reddit poster is claiming that the insurance co. want their money back for his dad's cancer drugs because they didn't work
I can't bring myself to believe that. Is it viable? https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCa...ad_in_a_while/ |
__________________
Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
|
13th November 2019, 05:32 AM | #252 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
|
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
13th November 2019, 05:38 AM | #253 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,797
|
My Precis, you mean? Okay, Not entirely sure how I'm misleading, I'll do it verbatim. The post reads: "My Dad's insurance is now demanding hepay back several $1000s for cancer drugs they covered at the beginning of his treatment Why? Because they didn't work & he had an allergic reaction They are robbing a cancer patient because his meds didn't work." |
__________________
Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
|
13th November 2019, 05:44 AM | #254 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
No, not you!
Sorry for the misunderstanding. The kid's tweet posted in the subreddit sounds like an inaccurate paraphrase of whatever crap the insurance company is doing. Like, I believe the kid that the insurance company is saying they're not responsible for paying the bill, but I doubt they're claiming it's because the meds didn't work, and because there was an allergic reaction. It sound more like the insurance company is refusing to pay a doctor for some reason, claiming the doctor was incompetent, and the doctor is probably handing the bill to the patient. Something like that. |
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
13th November 2019, 05:54 AM | #255 |
Pi
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 21,797
|
No problem. I really should have worked that out
Quote:
I agree that it's likely not what it's being reported as. You're explanation sounds more likely. My experience with US healthcare providers is that some of them have no shame. They will literally invoice the customer for the remainder after a discount has been negotiated. Presumably in the hope that they'll just pay it. |
__________________
Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted] |
|
13th November 2019, 09:55 AM | #256 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
This is pretty much the core of it. UHC would give workers a ton of leverage and end up driving up wages and lower the profits of major corporations.
There would be overall economic growth because of money going to those that spend it and small business becoming far more viable, but the stock market might slide and for some reason that will be held out as proof that the commie scheme has ruined freedom. |
13th November 2019, 08:52 PM | #257 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 7,113
|
|
__________________
We don't want good, sound arguments. We want arguments that sound good. |
|
14th November 2019, 11:30 AM | #258 |
Lackey
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 113,990
|
|
__________________
“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
|
14th November 2019, 11:33 AM | #259 |
Poisoned Waffles
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monkey
Posts: 68,744
|
I could retire ten years earlier if healthcare were sorted so I don't have to wait for Medicare For Only Elderlies. Thus freeing up my job to be filled by someone younger at a lower salary.
|
__________________
You added nothing to that conversation, Barbara. |
|
18th November 2019, 05:52 AM | #260 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
Correct. But:
http://cepr.net/blogs/beat-the-press...ot-the-economy
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
18th November 2019, 05:57 AM | #261 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
Yeah, they think that's a bad thing. It causes "inflexability in the labor market".
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTDwCCagqGM |
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
18th November 2019, 07:15 AM | #262 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,145
|
I would imagine it's a great benefit to the employers too, since they no longer have to deal with expensive health insurance anymore. Look at the US car makers moving from Detroit to Canada for example, as they could make cars cheaper there. The figure I remember, which is probably way out of date, is that health insurance added $1,000 to the price of every American-made car.
|
18th November 2019, 07:40 AM | #263 |
NWO Kitty Wrangler
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,690
|
And also the benefit of not having to harass your own employees over their health issues, because they're "costing our insurance too much money". I recently spent a few days in the hospital, and literally the only thing my boss had to worry about with regards to this was if I had enough sick leave. He didn't need or want to hear about anything else. |
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd |
|
18th November 2019, 09:58 AM | #264 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
Yeah. We are becoming a nation of weird sociopaths.
A four year old here was mauled by a pit bull a few months ago. Had to be helicoptered to a larger city, multiple surgeries, etc. It is a small area so I had a few different people tell me about it. I think the most anyone got before remarking on how it was going to financially destroy the child's family was like three sentences. |
18th November 2019, 10:11 AM | #265 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,625
|
|
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
|
18th November 2019, 10:46 AM | #266 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
|
18th November 2019, 11:40 AM | #267 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
A picture of health care in the U.S. today: Your ER doc might be 1,000 miles away.
Quote:
|
18th November 2019, 03:26 PM | #268 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 20,625
|
Keep in mind that such 'outsourcing' has gone on in other areas of health services, and even occurs in other countries.
(For example, Canada and the U.S. have been 'outsourcing' the work of radiologists to India... get your X-ray done locally, it gets emailed to some doctor in India, and they send the results back.) Not sure if that's necessarily due to the U.S. relying on private health care, or just the result of having parts of the country with very low population density. |
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppins Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
|
18th November 2019, 03:39 PM | #269 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 16,613
|
Telemedicine isn't necessarily a bad thing. These rural areas couldn't support a full emergency department, and without the new technology those severely sick or injured patients would likely be packed into ambulances and transported long distrances across the countryside. If I was dying after a car accident I'd take a tele-doctor over no doctor.
But outsourcing xrays etc. is purely cost-driven. I'm sure it could be done in the U.S. The question for patients is how reliable are the results of overseas outsourcing vs. using a U.S. specialist? Has that been studied? And do the patients benefit from the reduced costs, or does it just allow the hospital to pocket more of the fee? |
18th November 2019, 03:51 PM | #270 |
No Punting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Not In Follansbee
Posts: 5,781
|
|
20th November 2019, 03:26 AM | #271 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7,706
|
Quote:
Gosh, maybe it's time for Americans to actually pay their bills? |
__________________
We would be a lot safer if the Government would take its money out of science and put it into astrology and the reading of palms. Only in superstition is there hope. - Kurt Vonnegut Jr And no, Cuba is not a brutal and corrupt dictatorship, and it's definitely less so than Sweden. - dann |
|
20th November 2019, 03:59 AM | #272 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 12,632
|
I'm sure it'll depend on the hospital. Hospitals tend to extract as much wealth as possible for themselves, though.
There's a reason it's the hospital association doing this: https://theintercept.com/2019/10/15/...ospital-tenet/
Quote:
Quote:
|
__________________
"We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan |
|
Thread Tools | |
|
|