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8th January 2019, 08:16 AM | #81 |
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8th January 2019, 09:07 AM | #82 |
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You aren't very good at reading comprehension.
I'm well aware that he probably doesn't think all poor girls should be dead. Nevertheless, there is a gap in his argument as presented, regardless of what he believes. In any short exchange, some gaps in arguments are inevitable as a result of space constraints, and not all such gaps are important. But that gap is important, for reasons I explained and which you haven't addressed. |
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9th January 2019, 03:32 PM | #83 |
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I find it telling that our board conservatives fixate fanatically upon abortion as a contributing factor toward gender imbalance without discussion of how it contributes to personal, social, and financial improvements for women. As well as, oh yeah, helps reduce the hideous overpopulation problems that plague India.
Also worthy of note: China has greater rates of sex-selective abortion than India. But far fewer problems with inequality* by most international standards. * (Not to be confused with a lack of significant equality problems in China) |
9th January 2019, 03:43 PM | #84 |
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9th January 2019, 03:57 PM | #85 |
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Abortion is a piss-poor method of population control, and you've got serious systemic social problems (like Russia does) if that's what you're relying on. And it doesn't seem to have helped Indian women all that much, by the looks of things.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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10th January 2019, 03:00 AM | #86 |
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10th January 2019, 11:40 AM | #87 |
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I'm done trying to integrate the subject of abortions with the topic of India's women's rights. When countries with similar population pressures and even more sex-selective abortions have a lot better equality for women than India, THERE'S SOMETHING ELSE GOING ON. DUH. Hopefully enough people will not be distracted that Indian women can take the train to work without fearing a rape gang for which the police will blame HER. That she can enter the temple of her chosen deity to worship without some stranger trying to determine where she is in her menstrual cycle or simply to block her on the one in four chance that this is an unclean day.
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10th January 2019, 12:00 PM | #88 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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10th January 2019, 01:12 PM | #89 |
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10th January 2019, 01:13 PM | #90 |
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10th January 2019, 01:17 PM | #91 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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10th January 2019, 06:52 PM | #92 |
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I don't find the idea that the gender imbalance that is caused by both infanticide and abortion has had a negative impact on women's rights to be ludicrous. It's an interesting hypothesis, but at this stage it's also nothing more than that.
The next step is to examine that hypothesis scientifically. NWO Sentryman hasn't done so (or at least hasn't shared that examination with us). |
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11th January 2019, 01:31 AM | #93 |
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11th January 2019, 10:32 AM | #94 |
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Abortion became legal in the U.S. in 1973. Did that begin an abortion induced demographic crisis? 45 years ought to be enough to provide some statistical evidence. Has it? (Note: According to the 2010 U.S. Census the population was 50.8% female and 49.2% male.) Maybe it isn't the availability of abortions that is the root cause of such results as demographic imbalance. |
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11th January 2019, 10:34 AM | #95 |
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11th January 2019, 10:54 AM | #96 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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11th January 2019, 11:51 AM | #97 |
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I've been to South Bend, I don't think there are enough women there to extend 20 miles, let alone 385
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11th January 2019, 11:52 AM | #98 |
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OK, but how long was it?
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"I dont call that evolution, I call that the survival of the fittest." - Bulletmaker "I thought skeptics would usually point towards a hoax rather than a group being duped." - makaya325 Kit is not a skeptic. He is a former Bigfoot believer that changed his position to that of non believer.- Crowlogic |
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11th January 2019, 08:17 PM | #99 |
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"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep." "Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." |
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11th January 2019, 10:01 PM | #100 |
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11th January 2019, 10:04 PM | #101 |
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You would expect difference outcomes in different cultures. The argument that is being made is that the pre-existing culture in which boys are more valued than girls has led to sex-selective abortion (this is a fact), and thus a gender imbalance (another fact) in those societies where that precondition existed.
Is the gender imbalance greater than it would have been without abortion (when only infanticide was available as a method of changing sex ratios)? I don't know, but I think Ziggurat has argued persuasively that it at least probably is. Has that gender imbalance contributed to the repression of women in those societies where it has occurred? I'm not convinced that it has, and furthermore tend to think that even if it has had some effect, it's likely small enough that it's overwhelmed by other factors*, but I don't think we can glibly dismiss the idea either. The fact that this hasn't happened in the US is neither surprising nor in contradiction to the thesis that NWO Sentryman has put forward. One more comment is that even if abortion has led to a higher degree of gender imbalance and that has had a negative affect on women's rights in those societies, that doesn't mean that the total affect of abortion on women's rights has been negative. It would have to be weighed against other factors that are impacted by abortion. *So if we wish to address the issues facing women in India this is probably a red herring, there are other things which we should focus on. |
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12th January 2019, 12:52 AM | #102 |
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Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman
Originally Posted by NWO Sentryman
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12th January 2019, 06:38 AM | #103 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th January 2019, 06:45 AM | #104 |
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You are rasing a false dichotomy, abortion on demand may be "empowering" for individuals regardless of the effects on a wider group. I don't know if you are USA based but an example from there would be their 2nd amendment right, there is a cost at a societal level by an individual having the freedom to own some forms of firearms despite some people being empowered at the individual level.
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12th January 2019, 06:45 AM | #105 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th January 2019, 06:53 AM | #106 |
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Is it a fact in India?
How long have such procedures been available? What is the cost of such procedures? What percentage of abortions are because the fetus is female? From the evidence used in this thread we are far, far away from even being able to say sex selective abortion is common enough in India to have already skewed female to male demographics, never mind then trying to demonstrate a causual link or contributing factor to the type of treatment the women in the protests mentioned in this thread are campaigning against. |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 06:55 AM | #107 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 07:58 AM | #108 |
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"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov |
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12th January 2019, 09:12 AM | #109 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th January 2019, 11:45 AM | #110 |
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12th January 2019, 12:25 PM | #111 |
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Here's an article on the subject:
Trends in selective abortions of girls in India: analysis of nationally representative birth histories from 1990 to 2005 and census data from 1991 to 2011
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Another article: http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/facul...ions_india.pdf Results from pages 776 and 777 show that mothers in India who have amniocentesis have give birth at girl/boy ratios of 934/1000, while women who do get amniocentesis have a ratio of 891/1000. Page 779 estimates a lower number of female sex selective abortions in India at 106,107 per year as of 2001. They think the actual number is higher. |
12th January 2019, 01:58 PM | #112 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 02:01 PM | #113 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 02:04 PM | #114 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 02:34 PM | #115 |
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12th January 2019, 02:52 PM | #116 |
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“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago |
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12th January 2019, 04:17 PM | #117 |
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Any time a position is advanced, an argument against that position is by definition a counter-argument, even if the original argument or position is nonsense.
There, I have just proven by demonstration (the above sentence) that there is indeed a counter-argument to nonsense (your post). |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th January 2019, 04:32 PM | #118 |
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Fetal ultrasound was invented in the 1950's. It took a while before widespread adoption, but it isn't some new-fangled ultra high technology. And what was happening in the 1990s is what determined the male-female ratio of people now in their 20's, which is the prime age group to be acting up because of the imbalance. Go look at the stats and you'll see that in the 1990's, there was a significant and increasing child sex imbalance. Abortion and fetal ultrasound was not some alien thing by that point.
And in case the connection isn't quite clear enough, men in their 20's behaving badly absolutely has a bearing on the matter which the women in the opening post were protesting. It's not the only thing which does, but it's not irrelevant either. |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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12th January 2019, 05:53 PM | #119 |
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13th January 2019, 12:53 AM | #120 |
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law |
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