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Old 11th August 2019, 11:40 PM   #1
The Atheist
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Commit Two Rapes, Don't go to Jail...

..."You're good at sports, you can stay out of the big house," says the judge, completely out of touch with reality.

Sex tourism of entertainers expected to flourish in NZ. And don't forget to bring your daughters.

Commit oral sex abuse on 4 yo daughter? You're funny, you can go home.
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Old 11th August 2019, 11:46 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
..."You're good at sports, you can stay out of the big house," says the judge, completely out of touch with reality.
You failed to mention that the guy was likely 14-15 at the time of the offending.

Quote:
Sex tourism of entertainers expected to flourish in NZ. And don't forget to bring your daughters.

Commit oral sex abuse on 4 yo daughter? You're funny, you can go home.
Um, how does "Your appeal is a failure, you're going to jail for 2 years" equate to "go home"?
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:10 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You failed to mention that the guy was likely 14-15 at the time of the offending.
Completely irrelevant - kids aged 12 or over can be charged with adult offences, and after murder, rape would be top of the list.

Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Um, how does "Your appeal is a failure, you're going to jail for 2 years" equate to "go home"?
You've read that wrong - he was re-sentenced to home detention, which is what he appealed.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:18 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Completely irrelevant - kids aged 12 or over can be charged with adult offences, and after murder, rape would be top of the list.
And unless it is something like a blatant murder youths his age at the time go to youth court.

And Youth court very rarely hands out incarceration these days, unless the little **** is so repeat they need a message
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:18 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You failed to mention that the guy was likely 14-15 at the time of the offending.
This is a really pathetic point. I wonít even use the word ďargumentĒ because it isnít.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
And unless it is something like a blatant murder youths his age at the time go to youth court.

And Youth court very rarely hands out incarceration these days, unless the little **** is so repeat they need a message
Yet another ridiculous post. He raped two girls, using his no doubt large rugby-friendly build to commit these crimes. Not repeat enough for you?

Iím not saying that these ridiculous judgements are impossible in Australia, but I donít believe any judge would be swayed by the sporting prowess an evil piece of **** like this.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:33 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yet another ridiculous post. He raped two girls, using his no doubt large rugby-friendly build to commit these crimes. Not repeat enough for you?

Iím not saying that these ridiculous judgements are impossible in Australia, but I donít believe any judge would be swayed by the sporting prowess an evil piece of **** like this.
There is an old saying

"Don't shoot the messenger"

If you can point out the bit in my post where I agreed what I said was right or I agreed with it fair enough.

I don't

If you can't point it out an apology would nice.

But then I don't really expect one
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:46 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
There is an old saying

"Don't shoot the messenger"

If you can point out the bit in my post where I agreed what I said was right or I agreed with it fair enough.

I don't

If you can't point it out an apology would nice.

But then I don't really expect one
Oh for goodness sake. You effectively said this bastardís treatment was fair enough because thatís how things are done. Pathetic. Take ownership of your own posts. No apologies to apologists.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:53 AM   #9
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Cullennz, if you are not saying that his treatment is fair enough because others are treated the same, make the point more clearly, because that is how your post comes across.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This is a really pathetic point. I wonít even use the word ďargumentĒ because it isnít.
I would call it a mitigating factor. We understand that teenagers aren't adults, and don't have the facilities to think and act like adults. Since we acknowledge that and don't allow them to have the responsibilities of adults, then it is stupid to suddenly want to treat them as an adult when they do something criminally stupid.

We shouldn't have it both ways, we shouldn't treat them as kids until they do something criminal and then want to treat them as an adult. Either they are able to be treated as adults all the time, which means letting them do Adult stuff and suffering adult consequences, of we treat them as kids and deal with them as kids when they do something criminally stupid.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:05 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Cullennz, if you are not saying that his treatment is fair enough because others are treated the same, make the point more clearly, because that is how your post comes across.
Then I apologise for the way my post came across.

To clear it up

I think our entire justice system currently is a joke, both ways

With people getting off lightly for bad things and people getting hit hard for what I consider soft things, like not paying fines because they can't afford it and the penalties mount up to a stupid amount.

We also have embarrassingly bad prison rehabilitation system

And we currently have a new govt which is determined to get prison numbers down, and it is beginning to look like they are going to do it in a way I also disagree with.

I should have made it clearer.

I was just stating the way it works and they way the judges seem to think
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Then I apologise for the way my post came across.

To clear it up

I think our entire justice system currently is a joke, both ways

With people getting off lightly for bad things and people getting hit hard for what I consider soft things, like not paying fines because they can't afford it and the penalties mount up to a stupid amount.

We also have embarrassingly bad prison rehabilitation system

And we currently have a new govt which is determined to get prison numbers down, and it is beginning to look like they are going to do it in a way I also disagree with.

I should have made it clearer.

I was just stating the way it works and they way the judges seem to think
Fair enough. Thanks.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:11 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would call it a mitigating factor. We understand that teenagers aren't adults, and don't have the facilities to think and act like adults. Since we acknowledge that and don't allow them to have the responsibilities of adults, then it is stupid to suddenly want to treat them as an adult when they do something criminally stupid.

We shouldn't have it both ways, we shouldn't treat them as kids until they do something criminal and then want to treat them as an adult. Either they are able to be treated as adults all the time, which means letting them do Adult stuff and suffering adult consequences, of we treat them as kids and deal with them as kids when they do something criminally stupid.
This guy was above the age of criminal culpability. There is provision for children to be charged and tried as adults. Your point ďbut he was a kidĒ means very little.

Do you think justice was done in this case? If so, why? And try to come up with something better than ďhe was a kidĒ.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:14 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I would call it a mitigating factor. We understand that teenagers aren't adults, and don't have the facilities to think and act like adults. Since we acknowledge that and don't allow them to have the responsibilities of adults, then it is stupid to suddenly want to treat them as an adult when they do something criminally stupid.

We shouldn't have it both ways, we shouldn't treat them as kids until they do something criminal and then want to treat them as an adult. Either they are able to be treated as adults all the time, which means letting them do Adult stuff and suffering adult consequences, of we treat them as kids and deal with them as kids when they do something criminally stupid.
While I understand your point the

"You are an avid and talented [sportsman, having competed] at a high-level and that includes representing New Zealand overseas.

"Your goal is to be a professional [sportsman] and compete internationally. References provided tell of your outstanding talent and your potential bright future."

Should be utterly irrelevant and hardly gives the public a boost of confidence when it comes to what they think judges base their decisions on.

I'd wager the majority of kiwis don't care whether some now 18 year old might be good at sport.

And even if he does compete for NZ now at 18, if he is getting sentences based on his age of 13-14 at the time, then his personal circumstances should be based on then. And I'm assuming then he wasn't competing for NZ in sport
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:27 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
While I understand your point the

"You are an avid and talented [sportsman, having competed] at a high-level and that includes representing New Zealand overseas.

"Your goal is to be a professional [sportsman] and compete internationally. References provided tell of your outstanding talent and your potential bright future."

Should be utterly irrelevant and hardly gives the public a boost of confidence when it comes to what they think judges base their decisions on.
This is a judgement that sometimes, rather infuriatingly, crops up in rape cases, though; the judge gives a more lenient sentence because normal sentencing guidelines would result in a seriously negative impact on the perpetrator's career. It gives a clear message that the judge doesn't really think rape is a proper crime, so the rapist doesn't really warrant a proper sentence. Meanwhile the seriously negative impact on the victim's perfectly reasonable goal of being a secure, happy person seems to be less important. It's not just New Zealand that still seems to have this problem sometimes.

Dave
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:29 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
This is a judgement that sometimes, rather infuriatingly, crops up in rape cases, though; the judge gives a more lenient sentence because normal sentencing guidelines would result in a seriously negative impact on the perpetrator's career. It gives a clear message that the judge doesn't really think rape is a proper crime, so the rapist doesn't really warrant a proper sentence. Meanwhile the seriously negative impact on the victim's perfectly reasonable goal of being a secure, happy person seems to be less important. It's not just New Zealand that still seems to have this problem sometimes.

Dave
Sadly, I believe you are correct.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:29 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
This guy was above the age of criminal culpability. There is provision for children to be charged and tried as adults.
Which of course makes one wonder why you'd bother treating 12 year olds any different from 21 year olds at all. Apparently we are to accept that children lack the mental maturity to be held to the same standards as adults... only until they do something really bad and then we should just ignore that.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:35 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Which of course makes one wonder why you'd bother treating 12 year olds any different from 21 year olds at all. Apparently we are to accept that children lack the mental maturity to be held to the same standards as adults... only until they do something really bad and then we should just ignore that.
Try 15 year old and 18 year old, which is relevant to this case.
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:40 AM   #19
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There is an issue that is slightly scewey

If PhantomWolf is correct and he may have been 14-15 at the time, the court case would have had to take 2-3 years from the crime.

It says he has done 200 hours community service, so not completely out of the realms of possibility.

If he was sentenced at the time he would have got a couple of years in kiddy prison.

Because he is now 18 it is adult prison.

And that is a truely different level of punishment, so it is kind of youth court sentence, judge taking into account now 18 yr old sporting opportunities, with sending him to adult jail if sent.
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Old 12th August 2019, 05:44 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Oh for goodness sake. You effectively said this bastardís treatment was fair enough because thatís how things are done. Pathetic. Take ownership of your own posts. No apologies to apologists.
I read Cullenz post.. I did not take away your reading of it.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:34 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
You failed to mention that the guy was likely 14-15 at the time of the offending.
Quote:
two rapes
"Boys will be boys"
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:57 AM   #22
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Putting a 14-15 year old in jail for 2 rapes is not treating them like an adult. It is treating them like a rapist.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:36 AM   #23
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Sorry I thought this was a Bill Clinton thread
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
We also have embarrassingly bad prison rehabilitation system
You could say that.

A beautiful example came up today in the case of a bloke who's spending more time in prison for very low-level drug dealing than a pastor who committed serial sexual abuse on two young girls: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114...annabis-dealer

I repeat: sex crime in NZ is not well served by the Justice Department.

Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It gives a clear message that the judge doesn't really think rape is a proper crime, so the rapist doesn't really warrant a proper sentence.
We have a shocking record of judges doing just that.

I love the way our system allows a victim's sexual history to be minutely questioned while courts are not allowed to hear about the accused's history of sexual assault convictions.
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Old 12th August 2019, 07:07 PM   #25
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14-15? Has puberty started to come much earlier for boys now, that a fourteen or fifteen-year-old isn't awash in testosterone like they've never experienced before? Or are children now taught adult self-control long before reach adulthood?
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
14-15? Has puberty started to come much earlier for boys now, that a fourteen or fifteen-year-old isn't awash in testosterone like they've never experienced before? Or are children now taught adult self-control long before reach adulthood?
Amazingly, large numbers of young males make it to adulthood without committing rape, despite nearly all of them being "awash in testosterone."

So it would appear that they can successfully be taught some degree of self-control, yes.

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Old 12th August 2019, 08:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
14-15? Has puberty started to come much earlier for boys now, that a fourteen or fifteen-year-old isn't awash in testosterone like they've never experienced before? Or are children now taught adult self-control long before reach adulthood?
Pretty sure it's not the rarest thing in the world.

If 14-15 yr old sadists can physically bully a smaller male, they're absolutely capable of raping a female.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:54 PM   #28
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* CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story incorrectly reported that the teenager had been spared jail after a court heard of his promising sport career. In fact, because the case was heard in the Youth Court a jail term was not a sentencing option available to the judge. We regret the error.

That's from the link in the OP.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:08 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
* CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story incorrectly reported that the teenager had been spared jail after a court heard of his promising sport career. In fact, because the case was heard in the Youth Court a jail term was not a sentencing option available to the judge. We regret the error.

That's from the link in the OP.
That makes more sense

It is why I mentioned kiddy prison (juvenile facility) and adult prison in my last post.

If he did it that young they judge could have given time in a kiddy camp, but not adult jail, but now he is 18 they can't as he would have to go to adult prison.

Which is why I said it is scewey
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:38 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
..."You're good at sports, you can stay out of the big house," says the judge, completely out of touch with reality.
"CORRECTION: An earlier version of this story incorrectly reported that the teenager had been spared jail after a court heard of his promising sport career. In fact, because the case was heard in the Youth Court a jail term was not a sentencing option available to the judge. We regret the error."

Quote:
Sex tourism of entertainers expected to flourish in NZ. And don't forget to bring your daughters.

Commit oral sex abuse on 4 yo daughter? You're funny, you can go home.
The clue is in the headline:

"Comedian's sex assault appeal fails"

And the first paragraph:

"A prominent comedian convicted of performing a sex act on his four-year-old daughter has finally been ordered to start serving his sentence 22 months after admitting the offence."

Also, this dates from 2012. Has there been a huge increase in child abusing comedians visiting NZ since then?

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Old 13th August 2019, 12:43 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Silly Green Monkey View Post
14-15? Has puberty started to come much earlier for boys now, that a fourteen or fifteen-year-old isn't awash in testosterone like they've never experienced before? Or are children now taught adult self-control long before reach adulthood?
No, most teenage boys are rapists.

Jesus, where did you grow up?

Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Also, this dates from 2012. Has there been a huge increase in child abusing comedians visiting NZ since then?
Dunno, but we've certainly had masses of comedians touring, so I guess it depends how many of them brought their daughters. Pretty sure Paul Sinha's in the clear.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:53 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
This is a judgement that sometimes, rather infuriatingly, crops up in rape cases, though; the judge gives a more lenient sentence because normal sentencing guidelines would result in a seriously negative impact on the perpetrator's career.
Do we know if this was actually outside of the guidelines in this case? Guidelines typically set out a scale, and detail various mitigating factors that will put the convicted party at the bottom, middle, or top of it. Whether people like it or not, character can be a factor when it comes to judging potential future risk and thus appropriate punishment. If the kid was a total waster who had an existing record, was a frequent truant, etc., you would expect that to have more of a negative impact. Certainly copping a guilty plea in the UK results in the maximum sentence being halved.

A younger half-brother of mine recently got sent down for a serious sexual offence. By my choice I'd not had any contact with him after he was arrested, but based on the offence, and that I knew he was going to plead guilty, I'd already worked out that he'd get up to the 50% maximum of seven years, and probably closer to that than the minimum, based on what I knew of the circumstances and his previous character (e.g. his age, former police civilian worker, so should have known a lot better, etc.). I was only marginally surprised that he actually got eight years due to a few other details that only came out at the trial, but I certainly can't find any reason to argue against that sentence.

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Old 13th August 2019, 01:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
No, most teenage boys are rapists.

Jesus, where did you grow up?
In the 1980s the peak offending age in the UK was 18. It's now 23, but it is a "thing" that there is a correlation between (relative) youth and offending.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:14 AM   #34
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Youth Courts in NZ can’t jail offenders? If true, an absolute joke.

I know this is not the case in Australia. Just last week I became aware of an under 18 employee of a client (can’t give details of how I know and the offence) who received a 7 year sentence with a minimum of 4 in a youth detention centre (aka jail).
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:20 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Youth Courts in NZ canít jail offenders? If true, an absolute joke.

I know this is not the case in Australia. Just last week I became aware of an under 18 employee of a client (canít give details of how I know and the offence) who received a 7 year sentence with a minimum of 4 in a youth detention centre (aka jail).
They can send them to youth detention centers which are not prisons.

A prison is an adult facility

They can in some rare cases of special gruesomeness be "tried as an adult"
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:32 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
They can send them to youth detention centers which are not prisons.
Nonsense. Ask inmates. They are locked up. Denied freedom. Prisons in every real sense.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:43 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Youth Courts in NZ canít jail offenders? If true, an absolute joke.
It's a bit of a red herring, because they can be tried as adults for serious crimes.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:49 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Nonsense. Ask inmates. They are locked up. Denied freedom. Prisons in every real sense.
Actually think I might have been talking complete kak there

Think you might be right and he couldn't put him away.

Hence the 200 hours community service presumably.

Think the youth offender places are actually units in the prisons and he would have had to be tried as an adult to be sent to one.

Which does happen
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:03 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
It's a bit of a red herring, because they can be tried as adults for serious crimes.
Yes, I understand this, but in my view youth courts need the option of incarceration.

As I have mentioned many times I worked for Victoria Police for 7 years in the 80s and got to know many senior coppers, including the revered and recently deceased Chief Commissioner Mick Miller. I heard reports of child criminals who maimed and tortured (and raped) other children only for the courts to release them time and time again. Sentencing is tougher now (and whether this is a good thing is a long and difficult topic and warrants another thread, which I might just start) but we still see cases like the OP where the offenders go virtually unpunished. It doesnít sit well with me.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:29 AM   #40
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There you go, please New Zealand, stay home and fix your own damn problems and stop sending people to support the terrorists in Hawaii! Would you like us to send you all our tweakers?
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