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Tags anti-Islam incidents , mass shootings , Norway incidents , shooting incidents

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Old 12th August 2019, 06:08 AM   #41
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
I wouldn't put too much into his statement of "Valhalla awaits". He's Norwegian. It's part of our culture. It simply meant he was planning to die in battle.

His co-workers say he had become more religious lately, religious meaning Christian.
Well a lot of white supremacists mix the two a lot. Like trying to figure out if Anders Brevik is a christian or pagan is really hard as he appears to be both.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:10 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
This is not a bad point. No one will balk at call this guy a terrorist or point out his beliefs played a direct role in bringing him to act. Of course they did, this is without question.

Whenever a Muslim does something like that, neither is true. Instead the tune is: "don't blame Islam", "terrorism has no religion", "poverty", "social exclusion", "Israel" and the like.

Nope. The cause in both instances is a xenophobic world view, amplified by the echo chamber that may also have a religious significance.

McHrozni
You are right the true problem here is Christianity. And we all broadly accept that and know that until christianity is finally stopped this kind of violence will never end.

Wait no people never blame christianity as a whole for these attacks.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:23 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I've never heard a Norwegian say or seen one write that until now.
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As a veteran, I've heard it plenty of times. Our vehicles were also given names from Norse mythology.

Last edited by Ryokan; 12th August 2019 at 06:27 AM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:25 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Well a lot of white supremacists mix the two a lot. Like trying to figure out if Anders Brevik is a christian or pagan is really hard as he appears to be both.
Try reading Breivik's manifesto. He didn't have much love for those who turned to pagan beliefs.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:32 AM   #45
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If you consider his attitudes, the wannabe shooter might be a Muslim extremist. An acquaintance of him says:

Quote:
... Manshaus had both extremist and very old-fashioned attitudes.
"Among other things he said that a woman's place in the kitchen and not working outside the home. I told him that he risked getting slapped if he continued to say things like that," he says to TV2.
New information about the suspect in the mosque attack: Millionaire, misogynist and very interested in weapons (BT, Aug. 12, 2019)

But I guess he is probably just a ordinary white supremacist incel. Their attitudes are sometimes hard to tell apart. I guess that for the next couple of years, he won't have to worry about what a woman's place is.
The article also says that he used to go to a Rudolf Steiner (or Waldorf) school.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:33 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
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As a veteran, I've heard it plenty of times. Our vehicles were also given names from Norse mythology.

Craaaaazy! But I guess this guy didn't learn it in the army!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:39 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Try reading Breivik's manifesto. He didn't have much love for those who turned to pagan beliefs.

On the other hand, Varg Vikernes criticized Breivik for being a Christian. I think that they have both converted to some kind of Norse/Nazi religion nowadays.
Anders Behring Breivik: Religious and political views (Wikipedia).

Like I said in post 56: The most important thing to them is probably what they consider to be most Aryan. Christianty is too Middle Eastern for some racists.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 12th August 2019 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:51 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
Even though Muslims were the intended target, I'm grateful and happy the attack was thwarted. What type of gun did the good guy use?

The 65-year-old took away his bump stock and kicked his ass with it.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th August 2019, 07:38 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This thread has been bluesjr'ed!
What, on earth, makes a shooting in Norway "obviously [edit] something [that] is caused by Trump and/or his fans"?

Two attempts = two fails.
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Old 12th August 2019, 08:35 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
What, on earth, makes a shooting in Norway "obviously [edit] something [that] is caused by Trump and/or his fans"?

Two attempts = two fails.
Broadly Trump is far more a symptom than a cause of this rising white supremacy tide.
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Old 12th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
His VIking ancestors are proud of him.
I can hear my father's stock wise ass remark:

"He should have eaten his Wheaties."

I'm happy the incident wasn't worse.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:28 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
His VIking ancestors are proud of him.
As he was attending a Mosque he likely has far fewer viking ancestors than the attacker.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:30 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Philip Manshaus arrived at court with a face that obviously shows he lost a fight.

https://www.nrk.no/ostlandssendingen...ten-1.14657340

His plan was to go down in a blaze of glory and live on in infamy, and ended up being held down by a 65-year-old and beat into oblivion by a 75-year-old.
I nominate the guy who took him down for the Buzz Aldrin "He might be old, but he still knows how to throw a punch " award.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:34 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
His actions will be entirely explained by Christianity when the shooter will be citing his Christian faith alone as the justification for his deeds.

You know, like the unmentionables.

Just saying.



Those are the usual talking points when a Muslim is involved, true. I happen to disagree with those. Don't you?



Really? Can you provide the methodology you used to quantify xenophobia of various religions and the methodology you used to determine which religion was guilty of most genocides?

Don't spare me the details, I'm all ears.

McHrozni
A lot of people here seem to let Islam off the hook for the same things they condemn Christinaity for.
Fact is , neither one has a particularly good record.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:16 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A lot of people here seem to let Islam off the hook for the same things they condemn Christinaity for.
Fact is , neither one has a particularly good record.
That is not really true, the religious motivations when they are christian are often ignored in say cases of genocide like in the former Yugoslavia. The religious nature of that conflict gets ignored constantly because it was Christians doing the genocide.
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:04 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is not really true, the religious motivations when they are christian are often ignored in say cases of genocide like in the former Yugoslavia. The religious nature of that conflict gets ignored constantly because it was Christians doing the genocide.
This is utter BS. The religious nature of the "Ethnic Cleansing" in Yugoslavia was extensively covered.
Of course you have the issue of religion becoming ethniticity.
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Old 12th August 2019, 06:37 PM   #57
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pears-in-court

He wanted to live stream his massacre and go to "Valhalla", but there was no live stream or massacre and instead he's going to prison for a long time. At least he managed to film the entire failed attack to make the job easier for the prosecution.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:03 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
This is utter BS. The religious nature of the "Ethnic Cleansing" in Yugoslavia was extensively covered.
Of course you have the issue of religion becoming ethniticity.
Yet it was always refered to as two ethnicities and one religion for some reason instead of three ethnicities or three religions.
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Old 13th August 2019, 05:18 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
That is not really true, the religious motivations when they are christian are often ignored in say cases of genocide like in the former Yugoslavia. The religious nature of that conflict gets ignored constantly because it was Christians doing the genocide.

Yes, a lot of people here seem to let Christianity off the hook for the same things they condemn Islam for. Even when they they can't deny that religion may have played a role in a conflict, the Troubles, for instance, they hardly ever claim that every Christian is a potential terrorist or terrorist sympathizer the way they do with Muslims.
Even atheists in the West tend to be Christianocentric in this respect.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th August 2019, 05:32 AM   #60
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I wonder if jealousy of his step-sister contributed to his racism, or if racism made him hate his step-sister:
Minnestund for Johanne Zhangjia Ihle-Hansen (Dagbladet.no, Aug. 13, 2019)
Philip Manshaus is suspected of killing his sister Johanne (Newsbeezer.com, Aug. 13, 2019)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:37 AM   #61
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That’s awful. Why is there a mosque in Norway?
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:50 AM   #62
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Maybe for muslims to pray in?
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #63
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Because we have freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:21 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Because we have freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly.
I'm not sure if you're familiar with Skeptic Tank, but he doesn't really agree all people should have those freedoms. He's leans a bit more towards only white people should have....really any freedoms at all. The rest are just property and problems.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:32 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
The young woman killed had a family relation with the shooter.
Which does not necessarily eliminate the possibility that she was his "girlfriend".
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:34 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, you don't hate to say it: 'The innocent people who were attacked are to blame.' If you had the faintest idea about what science is, you'd know how stupid that idea is.


ETA: In your case, it probably won't make a difference since you insist that Islam is to blame, but this is what we know about the shooter's statement: Innlegget avsluttes med «Valhall venter». (VG.no, Aug. 11, 2019)
"Valhalla is waiting" or maybe "Valhalla awaits me."

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So he was a believer in the old Norse religion (I'm not even sure what that was called), the one with valhalla, Odin, Thor, etc.?
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:34 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Which does not necessarily eliminate the possibility that she was his "girlfriend".
It was pretty much his sister from what I understand. That would be...weird.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:35 AM   #68
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Maybe it's a heavy metal thing, but Valhalla Venter Meg is a familiar phrase to me.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:37 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Chanakya View Post
You know, in some bizarre kind of way, this does make sense! Method to madness, kind of thing.

I've often wondered how it is the white supremecist types reconcile worshipping a wholly brown ass, and aiming to base their lives on (some of) what this brown man of yore had allegedly taught. Those times I'd actually asked it of them, I've never got a clear answer.

So well, this does away with that contradiction, and goes back to sacrificing to the allfather instead. Like I said, makes sense in a weird kind of way.
It may help that much Christian art portrays Jesus as looking like a white boy of pure European ancestry. Almost certainly nothing like what he really looked like (assuming that he was even a real person).
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:39 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It was pretty much his sister from what I understand. That would be...weird.
Well yes, but we are not talking about a normal person here. Pure speculation (or maybe just a dig at the perp). I have no idea if anything of the sort was going on.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:10 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It was pretty much his sister from what I understand. That would be...weird.
It was his father's girlfriend's adopted daughter.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:22 AM   #72
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It should be noted that its certainly not uncommon for spree killers to first murder one or more family members or relatives before they go on a rampage.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...pears-in-court

He wanted to live stream his massacre and go to "Valhalla", but there was no live stream or massacre and instead he's going to prison for a long time. At least he managed to film the entire failed attack to make the job easier for the prosecution.
But he did get beaten up by someone more than 40-years his senior.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:59 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Because we have freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of assembly.
And you have those things because you don't have enough muslims in your country yet.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:34 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
But he did get beaten up by someone more than 40-years his senior.
I guess it was old age having a go at youth, that's what it was.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 13th August 2019, 10:49 PM   #76
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So he was a believer in the old Norse religion (I'm not even sure what that was called), the one with valhalla, Odin, Thor, etc.?
In Old Norse it wasn't called anything in particular. It was just religion. Today, some revivalists refer to it as Ásatrú.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:54 PM   #77
dann
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So he was a believer in the old Norse religion (I'm not even sure what that was called), the one with valhalla, Odin, Thor, etc.?
That would be my guess, but Ryokan said that it is also a phrase used in the army like a kind of battle cry.

Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Maybe it's a heavy metal thing, but Valhalla Venter Meg is a familiar phrase to me.

It is a metal thing. But the metal scene in Norway has been pretty weird. Some of the extremists used to burn Christian churches before they became mainstream racists and Nazis - with or without Norse paganism.
A pity with the old stave churches. They look like something out of GoT.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:08 AM   #78
Samson
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
A lot of people here seem to let Islam off the hook for the same things they condemn Christinaity for.
Fact is , neither one has a particularly good record.
Islam is a disgusting and degenerative religion.
Because it preaches falsehoods to the defenceless, the children. They are blighted and prejudiced for all time.
The women are ignored in the process of empowerment. That is emphasised by the fact that the Christchurch widows could not drive or access the bank accounts.
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Old 16th August 2019, 04:19 AM   #79
Porpoise of Life
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Nobody in this thread has been 'letting Islam off the hook' as far as I can tell...
Saying that shooting up a mosque full of innocents is a bad thing, isn't the same as saying the religion of the victims is without fault...
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Old 16th August 2019, 08:26 AM   #80
carlitos
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Islam is a disgusting and degenerative religion.

Because it preaches falsehoods to the defenceless, the children. They are blighted and prejudiced for all time.
As opposed to Christianity, where they only preach falsehoods to those over 18, I suppose?

Originally Posted by Samson View Post

The women are ignored in the process of empowerment. That is emphasised by the fact that the Christchurch widows could not drive or access the bank accounts.
Oh good, you have researched this. What percentage of the surviving female family members had college degrees and jobs, and what percentage were helpless with no driving licenses or bank account info? Thanks in advance for your efforts.
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