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Tags Finland incidents , Finland issues , immigration issues

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Old 11th August 2019, 06:48 AM   #1
Vixen
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Finland to take five more rescued asylum seekers

From News Now Finland, Finland is to take in 'five more' asylums seekers rescued from one of the Mediterranean boats departing - typically - Libya.

It is demanding to know what controls are in place to ensure other EU countries do their share.

Quote:
The Finnish government says it will offer a temporary new home to five asylum seekers rescued in the Mediterranean Sea. They were rescued by the Alan Kurdi vessel and the Maltese navy, and their applications for asylum will be processed in Finland as normal: which means they could be accepted to live here permanently, or they might have their applications rejected for a variety of reasons. The majority of the rescued asylum seekers were from Sudan, Somalia and South Sudan according to a government press release. The Finnish government wants to see more permanent procedure put in place to make sure all EU countries are pulling their weight when it comes to helping out with rescued asylum seekers.

So what are the rules for migrants rescued at sea?

From The Local:

Quote:

Are the rules clear?

Generally speaking, no.

"International maritime law does not provide for specific obligations which would determine in all cases which state is responsible to allow disembarkation on its territory," the United Nations refugee agency (UNHCR) says.

But that does not mean a country can simply hold up a stop sign and wash its hands of the situation when a vessel packed with vulnerable migrants approaches its shores. UNHCR also pointed to "key treaties" stating that a nation which has responsibility for an area in which a search-and-rescue operation takes place is required to "exercise primary responsibility" for coordinating the migrants' safe disembarkation.

The International Organization for Migration also said that while states are not forced to accept specific vessels, there is a collective duty to ensure a humane outcome.

"Regarding disembarkation, states are obliged to cooperate to find a safe place to disembark migrants rescued in their search and rescue area," IOM spokesman Leonard Doyle told AFP, citing legal experts.
So what of the case of Italy, who recently refused to allow a vessel - claiming its occupants were in distress - to dock, complaining why should Italy have to be responsible for the numerous illegal boatloads of migrants arriving from Africa. ISTM only those from war-torn areas, such as Somalia, have a hope of being granted asylum. I am not sure what happens to the sub-Saharan refuges from West Africa. Presumably they are detained or sent back.

Quote:
In the case of the Aquarius, which is operated by SOS Méditerranée, UNHCR said that the dwindling provisions on board created "an urgent humanitarian imperative" for Italy and Malta to allow the boat to dock.

Spain's intervention later appeared to defuse the crisis.

What happens after the migrants disembark?

In an apparent attempt to justify Rome's stance, far-right Interior Minister Matteo Salvini said Italy's new populist government could not be forced to turn the country into "a huge refugee camp".

But UNHCR said letting a boat dock did not mean a country would have to take long-term responsibility for those on board.

"A state which allows disembarkation on its territory of rescued persons – particularly in situations involving large numbers of people – need not, in UNHCR's view, be solely responsible for providing durable solutions on its own territory."
Over to you. How should we solve the boat people crisis and what should happen to them on disembarkation?

What should the UK (or your resident country, if in the EU) be doing to help out?
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Old 11th August 2019, 07:03 AM   #2
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5 refugees? Wow, the amount of refugees and asylum seekers in Finland just quintupled! No wonder they are making sure other countries are doing their part...
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Old 11th August 2019, 07:07 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
5 refugees? Wow, the amount of refugees and asylum seekers in Finland just quintupled! No wonder they are making sure other countries are doing their part...
Finland has quite a few Somalians.
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Old 11th August 2019, 07:11 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
5 refugees? Wow, the amount of refugees and asylum seekers in Finland just quintupled! No wonder they are making sure other countries are doing their part...

In 2018 over 4,500 people applied for asylum in Finland, and about 6,000 are being processed in total.
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Old 11th August 2019, 11:56 AM   #5
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What I want to know is, what rules are in place to ensure that EU nations are doing their share of carving out safe spaces for these refugees to build a better tomorrow for themselves, in their own homeland?

The whole problem with taking in refugees is that you're ceding ground to the very people you should be clearing off the face of the Earth. It's not sustainable.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:25 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I want to know is, what rules are in place to ensure that EU nations are doing their share of carving out safe spaces for these refugees to build a better tomorrow for themselves, in their own homeland?

The whole problem with taking in refugees is that you're ceding ground to the very people you should be clearing off the face of the Earth. It's not sustainable.
Rather a refugee that a right wing idiot.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:29 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What I want to know is, what rules are in place to ensure that EU nations are doing their share of carving out safe spaces for these refugees to build a better tomorrow for themselves, in their own homeland?

The whole problem with taking in refugees is that you're ceding ground to the very people you should be clearing off the face of the Earth. It's not sustainable.
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:01 AM   #8
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Whatever country they arrive at should process them and arrange for their stay if not sent back.

I don't see why somebody who is looking for asylum should turn their nose up at the first safe refuge they arrive at. If that happens to be the UK, whether it's 1 or 1000, so be it.
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:44 PM   #9
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Old 12th August 2019, 03:18 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You know that poem is not, and never has been, any part of US immigration policy, right?
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Finland has quite a few Somalians.
The Minnesota of Europe...
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You know that poem is not, and never has been, any part of US immigration policy, right?
Yes, I recognise the inherent hypocrisy of America as regards immigration.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:29 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Whatever country they arrive at should process them and arrange for their stay if not sent back.

I don't see why somebody who is looking for asylum should turn their nose up at the first safe refuge they arrive at. If that happens to be the UK, whether it's 1 or 1000, so be it.
Easy to say when we're a country that is almost never going to be the first port of call for refugees.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:17 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”

"Keep, ancient lands, your Johnnie Foreign RiffRaff!" cries he
With silent lips. "Give me your PhDs, your MBAs,
Your monied elite yearning to fox-hunt/play golf free,
The landed tycoons of your teeming shore.
Send these, the magnates, lucre-rolled to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

--Boris and Donald Lazarus
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:22 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
You know that poem is not, and never has been, any part of US immigration policy, right?
For about the first quarter century of operation 98% of Ellis Island arrivals were admitted through
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:44 AM   #16
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I didn't realise that people fleeing persecution in their origin country were folks that we "should be clearing off the face of the earth".

Presumably that means we should be backing all the regimes whose actions give rise to significant numbers of displaced nationals.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I didn't realise that people fleeing persecution in their origin country were folks that we "should be clearing off the face of the earth".
That's not what theprestige was implying.
I'm pretty sure he meant that the people forcing others to flee were the ones who should be cleared off the face of the earth.

He's essentially saying it would be better to try and fix those countries issues (including the people making them grim places to live) rather than just accept refugees.

I think he's pushing for more intervention and regime change...
All sounds a bit colonial.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:14 AM   #18
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Ah right, so offering refuge or any kind of assistance to fleeing Syrians is backing Assad. Makes sense!
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Presumably that means we should be backing all the regimes whose actions give rise to significant numbers of displaced nationals.

That is (and was) very often the case.
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Old 13th August 2019, 05:32 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Easy to say when we're a country that is almost never going to be the first port of call for refugees.
You shouldn't flay yourself over that fact as it is entirely irrelevant. You can't seek refuge then, once given it, snub the offer asking "anything slightly better?" Imagine your next door neighbour taking in some refugee or even a local worthy then knocking on your door to tell you "turns out they like your gaff better, I'll help you move their stuff in and thanks!"

If refugees make it all the way over here, under their own steam so to speak, then they bloody well deserve to stay
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:02 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by bluesjnr View Post
Imagine your next door neighbour taking in some refugee or even a local worthy then knocking on your door to tell you "turns out they like your gaff better, I'll help you move their stuff in and thanks!"
I'm getting a tad irritated with the number of refugees rocking up with a Zipvan full of belongings. If they have a TV better than mine I usually give them a pass though.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:02 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Minnesota of Europe...
Quite a lot of Finns in Minnesota...
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
I'm getting a tad irritated with the number of refugees rocking up with a Zipvan full of belongings. If they have a TV better than mine I usually give them a pass though.
The narrative was simply to illustrate a point. Good for you gaining a couple of virtue points out of sweet **** all.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yes, I recognise the inherent hypocrisy of America as regards immigration.
What hypocrisy? The poem was written by a private individual. It was promoted and affixed to the Statue by a private fan club. It's a nice sentiment, but it's not policy and never has been.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:23 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Francesca R View Post
Ah right, so offering refuge or any kind of assistance to fleeing Syrians is backing Assad. Makes sense!
What is your problem?

---

Anyway, yes. Refugees deserve better than being a guest in someone else's country. They deserve to be citizens in their homeland. We should be thinking about how we can help to make that happen.

Accepting refugees with no plan for their return and reclamation of their homeland really does concede territory to the tyrants and terrorists who drove them out.

I'm not saying refugees should be turned away at the border, and told to go back and solve their own problems. I'm saying they should be welcomed temporarily, and be required to participate in the planning and implementation of their return home.

Not wanting to live under Assad is understandable. Not being able to fight back is also understandable. But Western Europe (for example) certainly has the wherewithal to overturn the Assad regime, and drive out ISIS, if they wish. I think that it would probably be a better use of their resources, long term, to offer that support to Syrian refugees, and condition asylum on that basis. You come, you rest, you train, and you go back and fight for what's yours. There's no need to let Assad drive away the opposition and keep Syria for himself.

---

Or look at it another way: All these Syrian refugees, where should we put them? Why not Syria? Well, Syria isn't a great place right now. So let's fix that, then.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Quite a lot of Finns in Minnesota...
Finnesota?
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:35 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What is your problem?
I don't understand the question (but I don't think it matters)

Quote:
Accepting refugees with no plan for their return and reclamation of their homeland really does concede territory to the tyrants and terrorists who drove them out.
I tend to see it as permitting voluntary free movement (I am in the minority) and not go further than that. Obviously "refugee" implies not really voluntary, but voluntary in the sense of selected in preference to staying put (and maybe dying)
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What hypocrisy?
I think this refers to a country formed from immigration later pulling the ladder up after themselves, not a belief that Emma Lazarus's poem was a constitutional article.

I mean if the large amount of immigration a century ago was a bad policy like slavery then the US could be applauded for ending it. But it was a good policy (and made America great the first time)

Of course for much of the last hundred years the US has remained a much more immigration friendly country than most of Europe and Asia so "hypocrisy" is maybe more deserved elsewhere.

Last edited by Francesca R; 13th August 2019 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 13th August 2019, 04:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Quite a lot of Finns in Minnesota...
That's because when they arrived in the US at NY or Philadelphia, the Finns asked, 'Minne sota?' which means 'Where is the war?'

They were misunderstood and put on trains to Minnesota.
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