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Old 7th June 2016, 03:09 PM   #281
WhatRoughBeast
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I won't lie.

This is the best evidence against my position that i have received so far.

You are making my path of believing this is a hoax VERY rocky!
As another data point, consider Guinness Workd Records http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...-france-427011

And, if it matters, I did some looking around the root website, and it certainly seems like the real thing. That is, I'll bet good money that it's not a website faked up by Zapata.
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:10 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Mandela Effect: Thousands of people think that they saw a guy flying over water. They never did.
lol
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:12 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by WhatRoughBeast View Post
As another data point, consider Guinness Workd Records http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/...-france-427011

And, if it matters, I did some looking around the root website, and it certainly seems like the real thing. That is, I'll bet good money that it's not a website faked up by Zapata.
I also believe the website is real.
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:21 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
But we only have your word for that - how do we know you even have a cousin in France? I bet you are in on it!
True. I would like to have him come on the forum and state that personally. However, he won't (he doesn't "do" forums) and even if he did, it would still prove nothing, because you could simply say that we only have his word for it.

However, I am personally satisfied that cousin David is not "in on it"

PS: I have cousins and relatives in Spain (Valencia), England (all around North London), Switzerland (in Vaud, mostly in and around Morges, Lausanne, Territet and Vevey), France (Marseilles, Carcassonne & Biarritz) and Germany (not far from the old RAF Station at Gutersloh)
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Old 7th June 2016, 03:47 PM   #285
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Who would benefit from a hoax? Why do it? Zapata Racing is a preexisting company. They already have an invention in play (water powered Flyboard). They're not trying to raise money to build a fantasy like the magic snorkel guys so desperate to Manhattan project their way through unsolvable physics they might have actually committed fraud. No, they took preexisting technology and put it to work in a new way.

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Old 7th June 2016, 04:01 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Who would benefit from a hoax? Why do it? Zapata Racing is a preexisting company. They already have an invention in play (water powered Flyboard). They're not trying to raise money to build a fantasy like the magic snorkel guys so desperate to Manhattan project their way through unsolvable physics they might have actually committed fraud. No, they took preexisting technology and put it to work in a new way.
Well a world wide hoax with additional viral videos with many millions of views in total would bring a huge attention to his brand and the existence of his company and his water hoverboard.

The water flyboard is mentioned in a lot of the press release based articles too, if not all.

It is stated in almost all of them that he says 'you need at least 100hrs on the water flyboard' ....a good plug.

Something might be gained from that publicity and brand awareness.

However, if a hoax, it would come at the cost of damage to his reputation.

They do say all publicity is good publicity though.



At first i thought only a desperate company would resort to such practices as a hoax, so i looked into them and i think the first link i found said he has 1300 licenced Flyboard water operations around the world. I stopped looking after that.
I guess that means people have bought them and are hiring them out under his name and brand as small businesses, kind of like franchises

That sounds like a pretty successful company to me. As the things are not cheap, and the licensees would havegad to buy the units off him and be paying to advertise under his name.


BUt then i am not a businessman - and big successful businesses get into financial trouble all the time, and it can happen overnight in the case of expanding too quickly.

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Old 7th June 2016, 07:32 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
True. I would like to have him come on the forum and state that personally. However, he won't (he doesn't "do" forums) and even if he did, it would still prove nothing, because you could simply say that we only have his word for it.

However, I am personally satisfied that cousin David is not "in on it"

PS: I have cousins and relatives in Spain (Valencia), England (all around North London), Switzerland (in Vaud, mostly in and around Morges, Lausanne, Territet and Vevey), France (Marseilles, Carcassonne & Biarritz) and Germany (not far from the old RAF Station at Gutersloh)
I believe that you are telling the truth about your cousin hearing those things, and that you and he are honest in your accounts.
Absolutely.

"I would like to have him come on the forum and state that personally."
You know what crossed my mind when i read that?

Real or Hoax, Frankies marketing man or team ( he will have one) will have google alerts set for both FLYBOARD AIR, and for FRANKY ZAPATA. SO it is not impossible the marketing guy or one of his/her assistants has come across this thread.

Maybe its not a certainty, maybe it is not even likely, but it is certainly possible.

I would like him (the marketing guy) to come on here. That would be great!
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:38 PM   #288
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Breaking

So the plot thickens yet again.

I was on Zapata racing site looking at products because i never give up.

and i saw this image in a drop down menu.

I zoomed in and took a screen shot.

here it is.



Notice anything different about it to the one we've seen on youtube?

I do not want to prejudice your reaction, but it looks a lot like some kind of new product related to the original flyboard used for water.

Could this all have been a marketing campaign or advert for a new product line that simply spiralled out of control?
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:40 PM   #289
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Fuel stored in backpack? Misdirection, I say.

We are presented with a backpack that supposedly stores the fuel for the jet engines, and that fuel supply line(s) run from the backpack to a hose connection and a short length of tubing that leads into the FlyboardŽ Air. The idea being that fuel goes from the backpack to the jet engines.

But storing the fuel on the person's back makes little sense: (1) the added weight would cause a higher Center of Gravity (CoG) which could cause flight stability problems, and (2) from a product liability issue, if fuel leaked it could start a fire that could result in injury or death.

So it doesn't make sense to store the fuel on the back of whoever is flying the FlyboardŽ Air.

The solution is simple- store the fuel so it is enclosed in the FlyboardŽ Air.

It should have been relatively easy to design the FlyboardŽ Air so fuel could be stored in the base of the unit. One solution could have been to have four (one for each jet engine) fuel cells located in the platform under the user. This would, (1) lower the CoG and, (2) reduce or eliminate the risk of fire by having a fire-resistant/proof barrier between the fuel cells and the top of the FlyboardŽ. Less distance and likely less connections for the fuel to travel.

So why is there a backpack?

I believe the backpack is ruse with the intent to obscure a harness used to suspend the FlyboardŽ Air operator (Franky Zapata?). I'm not talking about the harness that's visible on the outside of his suit (the harness that has the single strap between Franky's legs). I believe theres a second harness hidden under Franky's suit that's strapped around his body.

I also believe that in order to achieve proper balance, the hidden harness and thin 'wires' might need to be mounted away from Franky's (or whoever pilots the Flyboard) body, at some location lower than his underarms but higher than the small of his back. And the backpack hides this (alleged) fact.

I believe there are very thin 'wires' that aren't seen (due to their thinness, color that blends into the background, and camera angle) that run from the hidden harness, that goes to some platform, crane, or helicopter from which Franky is suspended from.

So I don't believe fuel is stored in the backpack. Backpack (allegedly) hides a hidden harness used to make Franky 'fly' the FlyboardŽ Air.
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Old 7th June 2016, 08:44 PM   #290
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context for the screen shot zoomed out

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Old 7th June 2016, 09:13 PM   #291
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Guinness, Popular Mechanics and many spectators had questions. Franky gave answers.


Q: Hey Franky, why is there a crane directly above you?
A: It's not there to hoist me up in the air.

Q: Hey Franky, what's that guy doing behind your back?
A: He's not attaching wires to my backpack.
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:33 PM   #292
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It will be interesting to see how this situation turns out- actual flying machine, or hoax.

If it's a hoax, why?

A lot of smart people believe the FlyboardŽ Air is real and flies as stated. But due to the design and construction and some flight characteristics, I'm having a hard time believing it's real.

If it's real, why the lack of documentation?

Maybe we'll get answers after Franky Zapata presents at the "Challengers" meeting in Barcelona, June 9th?
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:35 PM   #293
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Its could be the regular flying Flyboard Air we see on the videos, but with tight a tight fitting dust cover on it.

You can see what look like jets inside it next to the boot, only these ones are coloured purple.
Rossys jets are purple

I may have jumped the gun.

oops
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Old 7th June 2016, 09:45 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
It will be interesting to see how this situation turns out- actual flying machine, or hoax.

If it's a hoax, why?

A lot of smart people believe the FlyboardŽ Air is real and flies as stated. But due to the design and construction and some flight characteristics, I'm having a hard time believing it's real.

If it's real, why the lack of documentation?

Maybe we'll get answers after Franky Zapata presents at the "Challengers" meeting in Barcelona, June 9th?
Its a win win situation in my eyes.

if it is real - then fantastic - because its cool as f.
Having this in the world is a small price to pay for being monumentally wrong and looking a fool. I will lieterally make it a life goal to fly one one day.

If its fake - then fantastic, because my intuition is still working well, plus I'll get 'kudos'.

Win win.

If i am honest i want it to be real more than i want it to be fake.
But unfortunately for me, it still feels fake.
I follow my feelings on stuff, so for me it is impossible to believe it is real until I see solid concrete proof to the contrary.


Lets hope the Barcelona event in a days time clears this mess up once and for all!
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Old 7th June 2016, 10:18 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
We are presented with a backpack that supposedly stores the fuel for the jet engines, and that fuel supply line(s) run from the backpack to a hose connection and a short length of tubing that leads into the FlyboardŽ Air. The idea being that fuel goes from the backpack to the jet engines.

But storing the fuel on the person's back makes little sense: (1) the added weight would cause a higher Center of Gravity (CoG) which could cause flight stability problems, and (2) from a product liability issue, if fuel leaked it could start a fire that could result in injury or death.

So it doesn't make sense to store the fuel on the back of whoever is flying the FlyboardŽ Air.

The solution is simple- store the fuel so it is enclosed in the FlyboardŽ Air.

It should have been relatively easy to design the FlyboardŽ Air so fuel could be stored in the base of the unit. One solution could have been to have four (one for each jet engine) fuel cells located in the platform under the user. This would, (1) lower the CoG and, (2) reduce or eliminate the risk of fire by having a fire-resistant/proof barrier between the fuel cells and the top of the FlyboardŽ. Less distance and likely less connections for the fuel to travel.

So why is there a backpack?

I believe the backpack is ruse with the intent to obscure a harness used to suspend the FlyboardŽ Air operator (Franky Zapata?). I'm not talking about the harness that's visible on the outside of his suit (the harness that has the single strap between Franky's legs). I believe theres a second harness hidden under Franky's suit that's strapped around his body.

I also believe that in order to achieve proper balance, the hidden harness and thin 'wires' might need to be mounted away from Franky's (or whoever pilots the Flyboard) body, at some location lower than his underarms but higher than the small of his back. And the backpack hides this (alleged) fact.

I believe there are very thin 'wires' that aren't seen (due to their thinness, color that blends into the background, and camera angle) that run from the hidden harness, that goes to some platform, crane, or helicopter from which Franky is suspended from.

So I don't believe fuel is stored in the backpack. Backpack (allegedly) hides a hidden harness used to make Franky 'fly' the FlyboardŽ Air.
I have a competition climbing harness that weighs 90gms and i could wear under yoga pants and no one would notice.

So second harness of some kind is a possibility without it being seen
The red one which is the same as he sells on his site would b useless for hanging from as it would crush the pilots balls

FOr some reason i am imagining two wires, not one.

one out the back, one out the front , both on an angle.

SOmething like this .....



If i was running the zoo, i would try something like that

Would prevent too much spinning up for one thing.
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Old 7th June 2016, 10:49 PM   #296
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I'm not sure what you're doing over in this corner by yourself but you seem to be enjoying it. I suppose we should give you some privacy until you finish.

Have a nice day.
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Old 8th June 2016, 05:46 AM   #297
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Indeed. It's an illness, man, seek doctor.
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Old 8th June 2016, 07:27 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
We are presented with a backpack that supposedly stores the fuel for the jet engines, and that fuel supply line(s) run from the backpack to a hose connection and a short length of tubing that leads into the FlyboardŽ Air. The idea being that fuel goes from the backpack to the jet engines.

But storing the fuel on the person's back makes little sense: (1) the added weight would cause a higher Center of Gravity (CoG) which could cause flight stability problems, and (2) from a product liability issue, if fuel leaked it could start a fire that could result in injury or death.

So it doesn't make sense to store the fuel on the back of whoever is flying the FlyboardŽ Air.
<Irrelevant material snipped.>
The fuel fed to the combustion chamber has to be pressurized. This can be achieved by adding a fuel pump or, much more simply, by raising the fuel tank a few feet above the engines. Even with a fuel pump, having some positive pressure on the pump inlet is a good idea.
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Old 8th June 2016, 09:45 AM   #299
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Also, the fuel capacity of a fuel bladder pack is always going to exceed the fuel capacity of a step stool. Not that I think Ernie's complaint is serious, I suspect he's just playing along with esspee to be polite to new members.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:08 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Didymus View Post
The fuel fed to the combustion chamber has to be pressurized. This can be achieved by adding a fuel pump or, much more simply, by raising the fuel tank a few feet above the engines. Even with a fuel pump, having some positive pressure on the pump inlet is a good idea.
To the best of my knowledge, Franky Zapata has not disclosed the working schematic so it's not possible to know the fuel/jet engine configuration.

That said, considering the changes in attitude and altitude, a gravity-fed fuel supply at any point in the fuel delivery couldn't be considered reliable.

Consider just one issue- that if you used a fuel bladder in the backpack as a gravity feed, the head pressure decreases as the fluid (fuel) level goes down. You couldn't rely on constant pressure because the pressure would decrease as the fluid (fuel) level decreases.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:19 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
To the best of my knowledge, Franky Zapata has not disclosed the working schematic so it's not possible to know the fuel/jet engine configuration.

That said, considering the changes in attitude and altitude, a gravity-fed fuel supply at any point in the fuel delivery couldn't be considered reliable.

Consider just one issue- that if you used a fuel bladder in the backpack as a gravity feed, the head pressure decreases as the fluid (fuel) level goes down. You couldn't rely on constant pressure because the pressure would decrease as the fluid (fuel) level decreases.
How much change? Is it significant to final output power in any way?

All of your complaints in this thread are minor engineering questions, none of which provide specific reasons to doubt the problem solving ability of a company with a successful product already on the market.

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Old 8th June 2016, 10:19 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Also, the fuel capacity of a fuel bladder pack is always going to exceed the fuel capacity of a step stool. Not that I think Ernie's complaint is serious, I suspect he's just playing along with esspee to be polite to new members.
I try to be nice

But...
Franky needs a bigger step stool.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:21 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I try to be nice

But...
Franky needs a bigger step stool.
Quantify your claim.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:24 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
How much change? Is it significant to final output power in any way?
I don't know the math well enough to know the change. But I'll guess the answer would be that head pressure is insignificant.

But for me, the issue at hand is that for safety and performance issues, it would be best to store the fuel in the Flyboard and not on the operator. Fuel pump(s) should take care of the delivery, gravity should not be relied upon in this situation.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:26 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Quantify your claim.
I took it that you're referring to the Flyboard Air as a step stool, if so,
then having a bigger step stool (Flyboard) should have more internal space overall, which should mean more room for more fuel.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:29 AM   #306
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Some rocket engines can gimbal. The "joint" at which it gimbals needs to be pretty far below the center of gravity.

The flyboard more or less gimbals (a little) by having the operator bend or straighten his knees. Putting the fuel tank on the machine itself might move the operator up a bit, making the gimbal joint higher up, which would be bad.

You could have an operator-worn bladder fuel bag connected to a semi-rigid hose, the hose could still connect to a fuel pump on the body of the machine. That would work better than a flat rigid fuel tank with liquid sloshing around.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:35 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
I took it that you're referring to the Flyboard Air as a step stool, if so,
then having a bigger step stool (Flyboard) should have more internal space overall, which should mean more room for more fuel.
Right. So you've introduced an enormous handful of engineering challenges of shoving several gallons of diesel fuel into a compact object, just to satisfy your nonspecific emotional desire not to carry fuel in a separate location on the complete flight package.

I see no problems this solves. It limits fuel capacity, requires adding a separate system of sensor and indicator for the operator to monitor fuel status, puts the fuel closer to the hot parts, and it creates a sloshing issue in the fuel tank that we now need to engineer a solution to solve. For what? Your emotional comfort?

Your "safety and performance issues" need more details.

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Old 8th June 2016, 10:51 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Right. So you've introduced an enormous handful of engineering challenges of shoving several gallons of diesel fuel into a compact object, just to satisfy your nonspecific emotional desire not to carry fuel in a separate location on the complete flight package.

I see no problems this solves. It limits fuel capacity, requires adding a separate system of sensor and indicator for the operator to monitor fuel status, puts the fuel closer to the hot parts, and it creates a sloshing issue in the fuel tank that we now need to engineer a solution to solve. For what? Your emotional comfort?

Your "safety and performance issues" need more details.
It's not a "nonspecific emotional desire" on my part, but the fuel issues such as amount/space it takes, location, should have been design criteria for the Flyboard Air. It should be considered ridiculous from a safety and systems functionality standpoint to store fuel on the pilot.

My viewpoint is that I'm alleging that the backpack fuel bladder is a ruse to cover a hidden harness that uses 'wires' that connect to an overhead rig that makes the Flyboard Air 'fly.' I get the sense there isn't even fuel in the backpack.

Model planes and helicopter use similar model jet engines and don't seem to have problems with fuel slosh or hot parts. Yes, they still have limited space to store fuel on board, but I don't see them using a scale model pilot on the outside of their aircraft to hold a fuel bladder.

From what I observe of the design and size of the Flyboard Air, I believe it is not possible to produce stable flight.
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Old 8th June 2016, 10:59 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
However, I am personally satisfied that cousin David is not "in on it"

PS: I have cousins and relatives in Spain (Valencia), England (all around North London), Switzerland (in Vaud, mostly in and around Morges, Lausanne, Territet and Vevey), France (Marseilles, Carcassonne & Biarritz) and Germany (not far from the old RAF Station at Gutersloh)
Have you seen any online discussions pics/vids from eye-witnesses? I did a very brief search on google.fr, but immediately gave up due to my cmpmlete inability to read French. I think if there was a fair bit of chatter in French speaking Facebook or YouTube that would put the nail in esspee's coffin of disbelief.

Last edited by CynicalSkeptic; 8th June 2016 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:05 AM   #310
Ernie M
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Don't forget to mention me, too!

I'm in disbelief that Flyboard Air flies on it's own.

Show me the proof!!!
(Current videos excluded as they don't constitute proof...)
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:07 AM   #311
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Je suis sceptique!
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:15 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
To the best of my knowledge, Franky Zapata has not disclosed the working schematic so it's not possible to know the fuel/jet engine configuration.
No, but he has claimed some specs. 4 jets 250 hp each, operational ceiling of 10,000 feet, and Jet A1 fuel. That provides some clues, and I believe a few people have posted some commercially available jets that are close to those specs.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:15 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Ernie M View Post
It's not a "nonspecific emotional desire" on my part, but the fuel issues such as amount/space it takes, location, should have been design criteria for the Flyboard Air. It should be considered ridiculous from a safety and systems functionality standpoint to store fuel on the pilot.

My viewpoint is that I'm alleging that the backpack fuel bladder is a ruse to cover a hidden harness that uses 'wires' that connect to an overhead rig that makes the Flyboard Air 'fly.' I get the sense there isn't even fuel in the backpack.

Model planes and helicopter use similar model jet engines and don't seem to have problems with fuel slosh or hot parts. Yes, they still have limited space to store fuel on board, but I don't see them using a scale model pilot on the outside of their aircraft to hold a fuel bladder.

From what I observe of the design and size of the Flyboard Air, I believe it is not possible to produce stable flight.
Argument from a salad bar of fallacies, mostly Incredulity. You are arguing from your own ignorance and expecting others to value your ignorance.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:24 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Also, the fuel capacity of a fuel bladder pack is always going to exceed the fuel capacity of a step stool. Not that I think Ernie's complaint is serious, I suspect he's just playing along with esspee to be polite to new members.
I don't think he is playing along to be polite to me.

I just think that is easier for you to see it that way than see that their are huge inconstancies in this story no matter how you look at it.

he comes from a place of knowledge and technical expertise. - he has big doubts.

I come from a place of intuition, experience in aviation and videography, and knowledge of marketing - i have big doubts.

Doubts are different from convictions.

I only see a few people in this thread with convictions.
None of them (YET) have any solid evidence to back them up.
And all are on the side that this thing is 100% real.


Based on........assumptions perhaps?

Last edited by esspee; 8th June 2016 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:27 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
And all are on the side that this thing is 100% real.

Based on........?
I'd have to go back and read this thread from the beginning (and another one on a different forum) to see what made most people change their mind (I think most of us were skeptical at first as well). The Guinness certification is probably extremely convincing to most people.

ETA: Also one of the flights from multiple camera angles
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:28 AM   #316
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On using a backpack fuel source, two thoughts.

1) Having more mass in that position may not be less stable. We think that way due to growing up in an environment with a solid floor, with the only way to accelerate being to push against that floor, where the offset between center of mass and center of acceleration needs to be compensated every time we twitch. With a hoverboard, you don't push against the floor, you rotate/slide the floor relative to your center of mass, while keeping the thrust through that center. This is a completely different motion, and having a greater mass higher up may actually make it more intuitive for us ground-dwellers to use (emphasis on "may"), by keeping our torsos more resistant to motion relative to our feet. Having the fuel on the board would force the user to move that fuel around every time they wanted to make an attitude adjustment.

2) Using a detachable fuel source allows for easily increasing (or decreasing) the size of that source. If it were built in, you'd have to either over-engineer the mounts for future expansion, or redesign them for each tank upgrade.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:38 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
Indeed. It's an illness, man, seek doctor.

My 'illness' has directly led to the greatest achievements in my life.

So....I'd rather be sick thanks.

Please do not report me to the doctors. I have successfully functioned in life very well while staying away from those jokers, and for a very long time now.

BTW, They know nothing. No really!
They know nothing.

They are winging it, just like the rest of us in life. just like we all are.

They are winging it.

We are all winging it

#offtopic

Last edited by esspee; 8th June 2016 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:44 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by CynicalSkeptic View Post
I'd have to go back and read this thread from the beginning (and another one on a different forum) to see what made most people change their mind (I think most of us were skeptical at first as well). The Guinness certification is probably extremely convincing to most people.

ETA: Also one of the flights from multiple camera angles

no joke - Please give me the link the thread in the other forum

PM me if need be.

I wish to see more opinion on this. My google search skills are not good enough to find the forum you are talking about (trust me, i have tried, i found nothing ...so i joined this forum and started this thread)
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Old 8th June 2016, 11:48 AM   #319
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Not sure if you need to register to read it.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...ght=hoverboard

eta: It was definitely Guinness that got people to change their minds over there.

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Old 8th June 2016, 11:52 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I only see a few people in this thread with convictions.
None of them (YET) have any solid evidence to back them up.
And all are on the side that this thing is 100% real.


Based on........assumptions perhaps?

If it weren't for Guinness having witnessed and confirmed it, along with the folks in this thread who are knowledgeable in the general fields related to the Flyboard saying it could be feasible with off the shelf parts, I'd still be skeptical of it all. I know I certainly was before all that happened.

Now I happily accept that it is likely and quite possible because I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that Guinness would be behind covering up all this. It would ruin their reputation. Your quip earlier about 'any press is good press' is simply not true. It is an over-used phrase that doesn't possibly cover every circumstance. If Guinness were caught in outright fraud, they'd never be able to recover their image. They gain nothing by lying to their customers in this circumstance.
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