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Tags archaeology , Egypt history , pyramids

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Old 12th July 2016, 06:00 AM   #41
marplots
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedit...tone-drilling/

Created the same patterns with a copper tube, crushed emery and water.
Very good article. Clicking the .pdf tab brings up a version with the pictures.
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Old 12th July 2016, 06:36 AM   #42
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Our "debunker" OP has gone missing. It would have been interesting to hear what s/he had to say to all the mountains of evidence assembled in this thread showing interesting but mundane explanations for this issue.
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Old 12th July 2016, 11:19 AM   #43
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Well, it could be they're presenting to their friend. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Well, at least the first time.
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Old 12th July 2016, 11:26 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Very good article. Clicking the .pdf tab brings up a version with the pictures.
Indeed. And I'd like to especially point out the picture on page 43 and the accompanying analysis. The lines are not regular, parallel, or (therefore) at the same angle around the core.

Those are NOT lines that are consistent with a high speed drill going into the material at a constant speed (at least approximately during a spin). They're not even consistent with a drill at all. Some grooves actually bifurcate, something no drill would produce.

They're the relatively haphazard lines that you'd expect when such loose and relatively coarse corundum (or emery, same hard material) bits abrade the material.
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Old 12th July 2016, 01:28 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
In fact, as someone with a bit of an interest in ancient Egypt, here's something that most people don't realize: far from being examples of advanced tech, Egyptian pyramids and generally monuments were SUPPOSED to be pretty much the LEAST efficient use of manpower even at the time.

You want to know what they were? They were the equivalent of the 19'th century follies in the UK. You know, building some castle in the middle of nowhere, or a road leading from nowhere to nowhere. It was the pre-keynesian (only) kind of pseudo-welfare. You wouldn't just give the poor money, because we thought it will just make everyone lazy. So you'd pay them to do some useless construction effort instead.

It was actually a bad thing if the Pharaoh didn't permanently have hordes of people working for his monument, or monuments. So if you finished your pyramid early, you'd start a bigger one. Like Cheops did. Or have people dig some pointless tunnels under it to keep them busy. Again, like Cheops did.

It wasn't even supposed to be some super-efficient use of material or manpower. It was actually just supposed to keep a whole lot of people employed. Even if it was with pointless stuff like digging some tunnels to nowhere.
Perhaps a coarse way of putting it - I wouldn't agree that it was ultimately pointless busy-work, like a 19th-century aristocrat having a castle tower or roman temple-like pavilion built in the middle of nowhere. The symbolism of the pyramids is completely consistent with the known religious role of the kings of the period, and there is also a consistent evolution of tomb design that pyramids were the pinnacle of.

You are right, however, that large projects did serve to occupy otherwise-idle hands. Most of the pyramids' construction was performed by farmers during the annual months-long flood season when working their fields was impossible. A much smaller professional crew would be working on them during the remainder of the year.
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Old 12th July 2016, 01:55 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Perhaps a coarse way of putting it - I wouldn't agree that it was ultimately pointless busy-work, like a 19th-century aristocrat having a castle tower or roman temple-like pavilion built in the middle of nowhere. The symbolism of the pyramids is completely consistent with the known religious role of the kings of the period, and there is also a consistent evolution of tomb design that pyramids were the pinnacle of.

You are right, however, that large projects did serve to occupy otherwise-idle hands. Most of the pyramids' construction was performed by farmers during the annual months-long flood season when working their fields was impossible. A much smaller professional crew would be working on them during the remainder of the year.
Please do not take this as doubt because I am in no position to do so since I have barely more than a newspaper headline knowledge of Egypt or the pyramids, but how do we know this to that detail? I was under the impression that the labor force composition was educated guesswork as opposed to established fact.
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Old 12th July 2016, 03:07 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Perhaps a coarse way of putting it - I wouldn't agree that it was ultimately pointless busy-work, like a 19th-century aristocrat having a castle tower or roman temple-like pavilion built in the middle of nowhere. The symbolism of the pyramids is completely consistent with the known religious role of the kings of the period, and there is also a consistent evolution of tomb design that pyramids were the pinnacle of.

You are right, however, that large projects did serve to occupy otherwise-idle hands. Most of the pyramids' construction was performed by farmers during the annual months-long flood season when working their fields was impossible. A much smaller professional crew would be working on them during the remainder of the year.
Well, maybe I was grandstating a bit. What I'm actually saying is that it's both. Sure, there was a religious justification for it, and in fact for all Egyptian monuments. And with the Pharaoh being a living god, well, it couldn't be non-religious anyway. But I'm saying it was also intentional that there would be a large work program every year, as evidenced (among other things) by that pointless tunnel dug under the great pyramid just to not call it fininshed yet.

I'm also saying, and this was really all the original point I was trying to make, is that there wasn't the same drive for efficiency we have nowadays. Nowadays you'd want a building finished with as little material and manpower as possible. Back then, you wanted basically to use up the excess budget, because you got no interest and a 10% yearly loss on those stored crops each year. (Mold, mice, you get the idea.) Sure, you wanted to have an impressive religious monument at the end, which isn't entirely as pointless as the 19'th century follies, but you ALSO wanted to keep as many people employed as you can in the process. It was really a part of the same religious thing. You didn't want it ended quick and with little manpower. You wanted to employ a lot of people in the flood season for the rest of your lifetime.

So ancient alien idiots trying to look at it as some quick and efficient job using power drills and power plants are missing the whole point by a mile. Is all I'm saying.


On the other hand, calling the pyramid an evolution is kinda, well, a case of both yes and no. I'd say that Imhotep's design was a radical change from the previous mastabas, in more than one way. I mean, even the supplies were outside in extra temples, instead of in the second room of a mastaba. Or even the presence of those shrines at all.

I mean, the only real link is that superficially you could say that Imhotep's design is several stacked mastabas... except they're not REALLY. They don't follow the two room plan of a mastaba. And they're not even constructed like the previous mastabas. That guy invented not only columns -- which previous mastabas didn't actually HAVE -- but anchoring them to walls too, to support the massive weight of the upper floors. It's a radical new architecture, without any precedent.

Now mind you, I'm NOT saying that aliens taught him that or anything. Just that Imhotep may well have been the greatest genius in recorded history. And not just for his architecture work.

But yes, I'd say the only real continuity is that it was still a sacred tomb. The architecture is not really an evolution of mastabas, IMHO, but something new. And pure genius, really.
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Old 12th July 2016, 05:51 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Garrette View Post
Please do not take this as doubt because I am in no position to do so since I have barely more than a newspaper headline knowledge of Egypt or the pyramids, but how do we know this to that detail? I was under the impression that the labor force composition was educated guesswork as opposed to established fact.
Ah - to be sure, the exact numbers of workers in total, and the exact numbers of itinerant labor as opposed to project-permanent, are educated guesswork. The inscriptions do not specifically state that the shift-labor were farmers, but this is really the only logical source for free workforce of that size. We know the workforce was free - i.e., not in a condition of servitude - because Egypt did not have such numbers of slaves, and because the pyramid builders were paid wages and buried with dignity and afterlife provisions if they died on the worksite (we have found their cemetery, adjacent to the pyramid complex itself), consideration that slaves were never given.

How the work force was organized, administered, and compensated, and that they worked in these shifts, is information that has been left to us on the walls of the tombs of the construction foremen and overseers, which were found when their cemetery along with the workers' village was discovered in the 90's. The tomb of one of the overseers for instance describes his being in charge of two teams of two thousand workers per team. These teams were divided into "gangs" of a thousand, further into platoons of a hundred or so, and finally into small task forces of ten to twenty. Except for the gangs, which apparently chose unique and sometimes frivolous names for themselves (like "Khufu's drunkards"), all of these sub-units had standardized names and were divided by skill for specific tasks.
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Old 13th July 2016, 12:17 AM   #49
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And I thought those aliens were supposed to be so much more advanced!

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Old 13th July 2016, 02:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
And I thought those aliens were supposed to be so much more advanced!

Yes, well, as I keep saying, if you listen to the UFO gang, it's just a sad tale of idiocracy in slow motion. It's kinda like this:

- 400,000 years ago: aliens genetically engineer the evolution towards modern humans. Somehow.

- 4000 years ago: aliens teach humans to... stack big rocks on top of other rocks. And possibly teach humans to... paint inventory tags, from which writing would soon evolve. But still..

- present day: aliens are only interested in anal probing schizophrenic hillbillies and cutting out anuses and genitals off dead cows. Because THAT is what cattle mutilation is.

Am I the only one getting Idiocracy flashbacks there?
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Old 13th July 2016, 02:58 AM   #51
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But, seriously, think of how many useful things those aliens COULD have taught early humans. E.g., off the top of my head:

- the sieve. Seriously, THE number 1 cause of death in the Old Kingdom was tooth abscesses, because sand in their food abraded the teeth to the pulp. So if you really want to do a major thing for them, without revealing space age tech, just teach them to use a sieve.

- a ceramic water filter. Endless clean drinking water, without all the wood you'd need to boil it.

- distillation. As an alternative, teach them to make a solar still, fer crap's sake. If there was one source of energy that Egypt had no shortage of, it was sunlight.

- glasses. Think of how many people's lives would have been so much less crappy, if they could just see what they're doing.

Etc.

There are so many little things we take for granted, and which would have made a HUGE difference for those people. But what do the supposed aliens teach them instead? How to stack stones and how to drill a hole in some rich guy's sarcophagus lid.

Geesh...
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Old 13th July 2016, 07:26 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Ah - to be sure, the exact numbers of workers in total, and the exact numbers of itinerant labor as opposed to project-permanent, are educated guesswork. The inscriptions do not specifically state that the shift-labor were farmers, but this is really the only logical source for free workforce of that size. We know the workforce was free - i.e., not in a condition of servitude - because Egypt did not have such numbers of slaves, and because the pyramid builders were paid wages and buried with dignity and afterlife provisions if they died on the worksite (we have found their cemetery, adjacent to the pyramid complex itself), consideration that slaves were never given.

How the work force was organized, administered, and compensated, and that they worked in these shifts, is information that has been left to us on the walls of the tombs of the construction foremen and overseers, which were found when their cemetery along with the workers' village was discovered in the 90's. The tomb of one of the overseers for instance describes his being in charge of two teams of two thousand workers per team. These teams were divided into "gangs" of a thousand, further into platoons of a hundred or so, and finally into small task forces of ten to twenty. Except for the gangs, which apparently chose unique and sometimes frivolous names for themselves (like "Khufu's drunkards"), all of these sub-units had standardized names and were divided by skill for specific tasks.
Perfect. Thanks.
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Old 13th July 2016, 11:14 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, maybe I was grandstating a bit. What I'm actually saying is that it's both. Sure, there was a religious justification for it, and in fact for all Egyptian monuments. And with the Pharaoh being a living god, well, it couldn't be non-religious anyway. But I'm saying it was also intentional that there would be a large work program every year, as evidenced (among other things) by that pointless tunnel dug under the great pyramid just to not call it fininshed yet.

I'm also saying, and this was really all the original point I was trying to make, is that there wasn't the same drive for efficiency we have nowadays. Nowadays you'd want a building finished with as little material and manpower as possible. Back then, you wanted basically to use up the excess budget, because you got no interest and a 10% yearly loss on those stored crops each year. (Mold, mice, you get the idea.) Sure, you wanted to have an impressive religious monument at the end, which isn't entirely as pointless as the 19'th century follies, but you ALSO wanted to keep as many people employed as you can in the process. It was really a part of the same religious thing. You didn't want it ended quick and with little manpower. You wanted to employ a lot of people in the flood season for the rest of your lifetime.

So ancient alien idiots trying to look at it as some quick and efficient job using power drills and power plants are missing the whole point by a mile. Is all I'm saying.
Also, such projects would have brought large amounts of workers from different areas of the Empire together to work on a single, major project for a long period of time. I could see how such projects, making groups who would not normally interact extensively because they live in different areas, work together and get to know each other well. The projects might very well have also been a way to try and establish a sense of national unity.
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Old 13th July 2016, 12:51 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by simonxlong View Post
Also, such projects would have brought large amounts of workers from different areas of the Empire together to work on a single, major project for a long period of time. I could see how such projects, making groups who would not normally interact extensively because they live in different areas, work together and get to know each other well. The projects might very well have also been a way to try and establish a sense of national unity.
It may well be some of that indeed.

My personal guess, though, is still welfare. I mean, let's look at when it starts, and specifically at Imhotep. He was truly a renaissance man, you know, some 4000 years before there would be a renaissance, and came up with more than one thing. But it's the combination of two that makes me think:

A) an irrigation system, to feed a lot more Egyptians. Because Egypt was actually starting to have an overpopulation problem, and

B) hiring huge teams of people to build a whole monument complex. He didn't just build the first pyramid, he built almost a whole town around it, AND buried it half-way in sand.

Now you tell me if the two don't look like they could be related. The guy had a provable concern with keeping people from starving. And he just happened to come up with something that just happened to work as proto-welfare? It might not be a coincidence, is all I'm saying.

And of course, since he WAS high priest of Ra, the whole thing did have a religious justification. But, the guy didn't seem to be a religious fanatic. He wrote a very secular medicine manual, for example. (The first known, in fact.) Where he wrote about stuff like washing and bandaging wounds, as opposed to prayers and amulets.

He doesn't strike me as the type who'd just have some religious hallucination and make people build a pyramid out of fanaticism. I mean, he could be, but he didn't seem like it.
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Old 14th July 2016, 12:35 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
It may well be some of that indeed.

My personal guess, though, is still welfare. I mean, let's look at when it starts, and specifically at Imhotep. He was truly a renaissance man, you know, some 4000 years before there would be a renaissance, and came up with more than one thing. But it's the combination of two that makes me think:

A) an irrigation system, to feed a lot more Egyptians. Because Egypt was actually starting to have an overpopulation problem, and

B) hiring huge teams of people to build a whole monument complex. He didn't just build the first pyramid, he built almost a whole town around it, AND buried it half-way in sand.

Now you tell me if the two don't look like they could be related. The guy had a provable concern with keeping people from starving. And he just happened to come up with something that just happened to work as proto-welfare? It might not be a coincidence, is all I'm saying.

And of course, since he WAS high priest of Ra, the whole thing did have a religious justification. But, the guy didn't seem to be a religious fanatic. He wrote a very secular medicine manual, for example. (The first known, in fact.) Where he wrote about stuff like washing and bandaging wounds, as opposed to prayers and amulets.

He doesn't strike me as the type who'd just have some religious hallucination and make people build a pyramid out of fanaticism. I mean, he could be, but he didn't seem like it.
I am not arguing against the idea of welfare as a primary purpose. I'm merely pointing out additional added benefits of using this type of welfare.

1. It provides employment.
2. It reinforces religion and government power.
3. It serves to bring different groups from around the empire together and give them common purpose, reinforcing a central language, religion, and way of doing things.
4. It allows for the exchange of crafting techniques and the development of building advancements and innovations, as well as the opportunity to train apprentices under multiple artisans.
5. It provides the government the opportunity to get a feel for the public sentiment from around the empire as different workers come and go.
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Old 14th July 2016, 02:22 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Nakani View Post
I am just spit ballin' here but could they have drilled the hole and then used another type of drill bit to clean up the hole. If the hole was all ready drilled, roughed out so to speak, maybe the spiral tool marks on the side are from a honing bit used to finish the job.
I have thought about it but i see no reason why do it like that? To carv inner grooves into relatively narrow holes is a pain in the ass. Wouldn't you agree?

But about the "spiral" holes - I told I'm not even sure if they are spiral after all. If drilled as the conspiracy theorists suggest, they should be spiral but has anybody actually confirmed them to be spiral? If not, then the conspiracists are doomed in a blink of an eye. If they are, then we have one more thing to explain.
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Old 14th July 2016, 02:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
When dealing with woo they often concentrate on trying to discredit the orthodox view for the simple reason that their own 'view' has little to no evidence.
Yes, that's of course true. I like to mention them that couple of seemingly unfittable pieces do not prove the whole big picture to be wrong. Usually those pieces are just from another puzzle. Even if they found some pharaos mummy with a contemporary but rusted modern watch on it's hand, it would NOT prove some time travel or early technology. Mos likely it would prove the existence of some elaborate hoax. I understand perfectly well the concept of big picture but the woos don't and they tend to think, that this would immediately disprove everything we know. Even if it's much more likely a hoax or a result of some rat stealing some 19. century archaeologists watch and dragging it into the tomb.

The same thing with the holes and in my humble oppinion the only way to disprove the powertools is to replicate just ONE freaking hole with tools the egyptians could have had and would have used (i.e. it's not overly complicated for a practical use)
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Old 14th July 2016, 02:41 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As to your drill holes, what makes you think we can't? It's true that we don't, because we have better ways to drill holes, and better things to do with our resources than drill holes using 4,000 year-old methods.
Of course we have but we also have a technology for it. What I meant was, that we can not reproduce those holes with the technology the egyptians must have had. Or can we? That was my initial question! Can we? Has anybody done that, so we could end the woo arguments for ever.

Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Leaving aside your "guy", why is it important to you to determine which of several possible methods the ancient Egyptians may have used to drill holes?
Well, i've explained it repeatedly but it couldn't hurt to do one more time:
By showing that the egyptians could have done it with tools and technology they had in those days (and of course with sufficient practicality, meaning that even if they could've carved them after a horrible painstaken period of time and effort, i dont think they actually did it this way because even then people had some sense about wasting time and energy if you know what i mean) we can eliminate FOREVER any of their arguments that they had no means to do it.

Yeah, well, ok...we can't convince the real woos but we can show the hesitant people that woo's suggestions aren't actually correct.
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Old 14th July 2016, 02:56 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
<snip for brevity>


The same thing with the holes and in my humble oppinion the only way to disprove the powertools is to replicate just ONE freaking hole with tools the egyptians could have had and would have used (i.e. it's not overly complicated for a practical use)
What is your objection to the multiple examples of that very thing which have been provided for you in this very thread?
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Old 14th July 2016, 02:59 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
If you're determined to be a pyramidiot, it's hard to prove that magic or extraterrestrial technology, or some lost art, did not come into play; but if you can show that the job could be done with the technology we know was available, you have shown that the other things are not necessary.
Yes, you can't completely convince a pyramidiot alhough they also accept that holes CAN be drilled with bronze cores and abrasives but they point out (and with the information I have at the moment I have to agree with them), that the result can't be compared with what we see in egyptian stones. I have seen a reenactment video of limestone drilling a couple of years ago and even there the result was embarassingly sloppy. And the limestone is very soft compared to granite. It's really hard to imagine that the same techology could create quite nice holes into granite and I'm not surprised why the woos think the same. Can't blame them at least in that point. And here's the problem - if the experimental archaeologists reenact all sorts of activities to find out how people did this or that, I still cant find the solid explanations to most interesting questions. Like the holes. Maybe we never find out the real means they used but I hope we do.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I found an interesting site (archived from an old geocities site) that looks as if it addresses at least some issues.
Yeah, i think i've seen this or some similar site. There are actually a lot of them around. It reminds me this siltstone vaze that was also pointed out as an "alien molten rock casting technology" or whatever and somewhere is a beautyful explanation how to create those with ancient tools and technology. Well, the woos don't point to those vazes much any more. But i'm still looking for a good solid practical show.
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:01 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
Of course we have but we also have a technology for it. What I meant was, that we can not reproduce those holes with the technology the egyptians must have had. Or can we? That was my initial question! Can we? Has anybody done that, so we could end the woo arguments for ever.



Well, i've explained it repeatedly but it couldn't hurt to do one more time:
By showing that the egyptians could have done it with tools and technology they had in those days (and of course with sufficient practicality, meaning that even if they could've carved them after a horrible painstaken period of time and effort, i dont think they actually did it this way because even then people had some sense about wasting time and energy if you know what i mean) we can eliminate FOREVER any of their arguments that they had no means to do it.

Yeah, well, ok...we can't convince the real woos but we can show the hesitant people that woo's suggestions aren't actually correct.
Multiple posters have handed you practical examples of this.

Why are you still claiming that it has never even been attempted?
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:03 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Our "debunker" OP has gone missing. It would have been interesting to hear what s/he had to say to all the mountains of evidence assembled in this thread showing interesting but mundane explanations for this issue.
I guess you have your answer.
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:05 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What is your objection to the multiple examples of that very thing which have been provided for you in this very thread?
If you would read my posts (and sorry if they are a bit messy cause english isn't my native language), you would see, that my ONLY objection is that none of the modern attempts to replicate those drillings don't have anything like the quality of egyptian holes. At least I haven't come across any good replication. And that was the only thing I actually asked from you - is there any good replication made nowadays? What's the problem with understandig a fairly simple question? If there is, I'm glad if someone points it out. If no, then there's not and thats crap and just say it. We're just gonna wait for one to finally pop out.
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:08 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Multiple posters have handed you practical examples of this.

Why are you still claiming that it has never even been attempted?
Well, i'm still working my way down through all the posts made while I was away. Maybe the gold is in the bottom. Just give me some time, i'm only in the middle of the first page :-)
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:11 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
It seems to me that, if someone wants to believe that Egyptian stone-drilling skills are (a) impossible to replicate, or (b) must have used some advanced technique, then logical explanations, or 'we don't actually know every detail' simply will not be accepted!
Honestly, that is NOT my case. And i'm completely baffled how you guys still don't understand what and why I'm asking. It's like you don't even read what i'm writing.
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:11 AM   #66
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Rollin', rollin', rollin', keep those goalposts rollin'

Now your objection is a subjective assessment of the quality of a given hole according to criteria you have not identified other than what you have decided a replica "should" look like.

Again.


Those look perfectly fine to me.
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Old 14th July 2016, 03:37 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It's even worse for Noriabooks. Such ancient drilling techniques actually have been replicated despite his/her protestations to the contrary that we can't.
Yes, this paper is very good, as is also the oocities website, someone linked earlier.

I still have to repeat, that i am completely aware of their technologies known to us today. There's nothing complicated about it. I have been repeatedly telling since my first post, that i am looking for a contemporary attempt to replicate the same results the egyptians got in hard stone drilling. You know...the experimental archaeologists. People who get an idea, that whoa, maybe they did this way and then they replicate the conditions ad give it a real try. They take, say, a chunk of granite and a bronce cylinder and a handful of sand and a bow and start drilling. And they record it. and they see the results. And if the results are comparable to the originals they cheer! Because they damn solved a question. That is what i'm looking for. Because everybody interested in this topic kows the possible techiques you have showed. Don't get me wrong. I'm gratetful for you for these links although there's nothing new but i have to point out, that obviously we can't compare an attempt to drill an alabaster (1.7 mochs) with granite drilling (6-7 mochs). So, now you maybe understand what I'm looking for. So no hard feelings i suppose....

PS! There are NO new goalposts. Dont put words into my mouth that I haven't said. I've been pointing this out since the beginning! Read the first line of the 4th paragraph of my FIRST post! The question of the quality has been the issue since beginning.

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Old 14th July 2016, 03:58 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It took me only a few moments to find this:

Web content from 16 years ago, describing some practical archaeology carried out for the Nova TV show, including trepanning into granite with a copper tube drill and sand as the abrasive.

So when someone actually tries the technique, it turns out that it works.
Ok, here we go! Wasn't THAT hard? Well, I can only blame myself for not finding it on my own but what can I do? I just didn't. Excuse me. Right!

If this drill result they show, is really theirs, then this is the jackpot! That is EXACTLY what I'm looking for!! The only thing I'm worried is that this site doesn't have much information about it. Just a couple af pics and as a skeptic, you might understand yourself that this is just a bit too few to prove something. But really, thank you very much for finding even that much. This may give me some hope that someone has done this with a bit more documentation if you know what I mean.

Can you tell me more specifically, if there are any videos or better references about what they do/did? No newer materials? Everything i find about them online seems to be from past. I'm just always looking for better material, nothing else.
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Old 14th July 2016, 04:00 AM   #69
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You won't get it, because the people that test out these concepts are happy that, by showing that something works to a rough degree, that the same thing could easily have been improved by the Egyptians (or whoever) by simply putting more effort into it.

All these things are are a proof of concept.

The same thing as applies to showing how the blocks for the pyramids could be moved. No one is going to build a pyramid.
Just as here, no one is going to polish up a vase using (likely) Egyptian techniques.
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Old 14th July 2016, 04:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It would certainly be very surprising indeed if the tool marks left in the drilled holes or the removed cores were spiral (implying a very fast cutting speed) but my first thought is that it would be such a "holy cow!" discovery that somebody would have mentioned it. It's not something you're likely to resolve by searching through still images unless you can get a really good profile picture of a core, clear enough to see that the grooves are exactly at right angles to the cut.
Well, i havent heard yet the woos to mention that the grooves are spiral. But they suggest, that the grooves indicate the step of cut and it's supposed to be too deep. So i figured it out that if they were right about them indicating the cut speed, then they MUST be spiral. That would be the only way the woo's argument would hold water. That is why I asked, if anybody has even checked if they are spiral or not because if not, it would be an easy gravestone for woo's theories.
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Old 14th July 2016, 04:13 AM   #71
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@Noriabooks
May I humbly suggest reading the site I linked, and click on the PDF? It actually deals EXACTLY with drilling in such a way that produces the striations on that core. And has microscope photos of the original striations, which, big surprise, actually aren't very spiral.

It seems to me like, for better or worse, it is EXACTLY the answer you keep asking for.

Here's the link again:

http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedit...tone-drilling/

Now I'm not going to accuse you of anything (it's irrelevant anyway), but it would be more productive if you read it and then continue the discussion from there.
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Old 14th July 2016, 04:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
You won't get it, because the people that test out these concepts are happy that, by showing that something works to a rough degree, that the same thing could easily have been improved by the Egyptians (or whoever) by simply putting more effort into it.
It's the first time I hear someone saying that scientists are happy with some sloppy, semi-good results if there's a possibility to get a better one. I think you should re-evaluate your standards.

Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
The same thing as applies to showing how the blocks for the pyramids could be moved. No one is going to build a pyramid.
Just as here, no one is going to polish up a vase using (likely) Egyptian techniques.
About moving the blocks there's actually no problem. Egypt is "full" of depictions about how they did it and even if there weren't a single one, it would be a matter of some fairly simple physics. Besides, there have been numerous experiments with moving the stones and ALL of them are efficient enough. The ones that still think the egyptians used "magic" to move stones are completely insane.

Of course, no-one would build a pyramide and that is a very silly comparison on your side. I just recently had an arguement when someone fugured out a new way to move the Stonehenge stones and couple of dudes decided that if they didnt move the stones the whole 200 something kilometers and didn't also build an exact replica of the Stonehenge, they proved nothing. That's obviously unnecessary but if you start comparing it to drilling just a couple of holes, I will laugh at you
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Noriabooks reaction to this complete and utter answer will be interesting. I still suspect we are dealing with a supporter of the nutty alternative theories.

Oh, and Noriabrooks...........you meant helical rather than spiral.
Yes, probably. Sorry, english is not my first language. And no, I am NOT a supporter of any whacky ****. Get over with it already.
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
In this article, they talk about the trepanning type holes. The surprising thing is supposed to be the rate of the drilling based on spiral groves in the hole.

I don't have the expertise to evaluate the claim, but it does make you wonder.

http://www.theglobaleducationproject...es/cdunn-3.php
This link also suggests that the grooves are "spiral" or helical. But ARE they really or is it just a suggestion?
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Copper just pushes the sand around.
What happens if you melt the sand or gravel INTO the copper?

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Old 14th July 2016, 04:24 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Foolmewunz View Post
We're not attracting new members as it is. The gauntlet of suspicious cynics is not exactly a welcome wagon.
Yes, exactly. And then I go to debate into some woo forum and i'm surprised why they hate me from the very first letter I type. Actually I'm just horrified by your attitude here and I'll never be surprised again about why the woos literally hate skeptics and call them arrogant asses (at best)...
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Old 14th July 2016, 04:36 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
It's the first time I hear someone saying that scientists are happy with some sloppy, semi-good results if there's a possibility to get a better one. I think you should re-evaluate your standards.



About moving the blocks there's actually no problem. Egypt is "full" of depictions about how they did it and even if there weren't a single one, it would be a matter of some fairly simple physics. Besides, there have been numerous experiments with moving the stones and ALL of them are efficient enough. The ones that still think the egyptians used "magic" to move stones are completely insane.

Of course, no-one would build a pyramide and that is a very silly comparison on your side. I just recently had an arguement when someone fugured out a new way to move the Stonehenge stones and couple of dudes decided that if they didnt move the stones the whole 200 something kilometers and didn't also build an exact replica of the Stonehenge, they proved nothing. That's obviously unnecessary but if you start comparing it to drilling just a couple of holes, I will laugh at you
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Yes, probably. Sorry, english is not my first language. And no, I am NOT a supporter of any whacky ****. Get over with it already.
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This link also suggests that the grooves are "spiral" or helical. But ARE they really or is it just a suggestion?
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Very good article. Clicking the .pdf tab brings up a version with the pictures.
Thanks for pointing out the PDF. Never would have guessed there's much more information.

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Old 14th July 2016, 04:55 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
Of course we have but we also have a technology for it. What I meant was, that we can not reproduce those holes with the technology the egyptians must have had. Or can we? That was my initial question! Can we? Has anybody done that, so we could end the woo arguments for ever.
But why would anyone even consider agreeing to spend weeks, probably months, learning how to use AE methods, become an expert, and then spend goodness knows how long making a series of holes in various kinds of rocks just to prove absolutely that it can be done? Not only would that person become completely bored with the task, let alone lose touch possibly with friends and everyday life, but the general public, after the news had received a few references, would quicly lose interest in such a futile project, even if some multi-millionaire had tried to persuade the craftsman concerned to do it.
You could of course take on the task yourself, if you could get some funding!!

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Old 14th July 2016, 04:58 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
@Noriabooks
May I humbly suggest reading the site I linked, and click on the PDF? It actually deals EXACTLY with drilling in such a way that produces the striations on that core. And has microscope photos of the original striations, which, big surprise, actually aren't very spiral.

It seems to me like, for better or worse, it is EXACTLY the answer you keep asking for.

Here's the link again:

http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedit...tone-drilling/

Now I'm not going to accuse you of anything (it's irrelevant anyway), but it would be more productive if you read it and then continue the discussion from there.
Yeah, i just reached there and this is top quality reading. I have to concentrate to it. This may easily be The One! I'll read it later tonight after work. Thank you VERY much!
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Old 14th July 2016, 05:02 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SusanB-M1 View Post
But why would anyone even consider agreeing to spend weeks, probably months, learning how to use AE methods, become an expert, and then spend goodness knows how long making a series of holes in various kinds of rocks just to prove absolutely that it can be done? Not only would that person become completely bored with the task, let alone lose touch possibly with friends and everyday life, but the general public, after the news had received a few references, would quicly lose interest in such a futile project, even if some multi-millionaire had tried to persuade the craftsman concerned to do it.
You could of course take on the task yourself, if you could get some funding!!
OMG! Because that's the nature on a human being! Curiosity! I'm baffled over your thoughts! Why should we research anything at all? And why should all those EA's spend weeks or months to find out how ancient people made stone tools and damascus steel and stuff like that? WHY? OH GOD, WHYY??

And why i dont do it myself? Well, a human being can't do everything he's interested in by himself. Agree? That's actually, why we have those specialized scholars if you didn't kow it before
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Old 14th July 2016, 05:41 AM   #78
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Then grab some rock and tools and do it.

What SusanB-M1 said has nothing to do with "Why should we research anything at all?".

The research is done, the method is known and we have easier ways of drilling rock, if drilling rock is what turns you on.
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Old 14th July 2016, 05:50 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
OMG!

And why should all those EA's spend weeks or months to find out how ancient people made stone tools ...
That is not what I said. I asked why any person, meaning any person today, would spend time on the whole learning process.

Quote:
And why i dont do it myself? Well, a human being can't do everything he's interested in by himself. Agree? That's actually, why we have those specialized scholars if you didn't kow it before
But if you want there to be complete evidence that the skills could be acquired and used today, then perhaps you should be prepared to take on the task yourself, or find someone who really wants to.

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Old 14th July 2016, 06:27 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Noriabooks View Post
OMG! Because that's the nature on a human being! Curiosity! I'm baffled over your thoughts! Why should we research anything at all? And why should all those EA's spend weeks or months to find out how ancient people made stone tools and damascus steel and stuff like that? WHY? OH GOD, WHYY??
Because they're satisfied that the copper drills and techniques described above (several times) are the likely candidates. Trying to recreate perfectly (and that's the sort of thing woos require) is futile.

The people involved (as with the block moving, or henge building types) know that they're unlikely to come up with the exact technique, but just want to show a possible candidate.
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