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Tags 2016 elections , Breitbart.com , donald trump , hillary clinton , Steve Bannon

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Old 16th October 2016, 08:20 AM   #121
RecoveringYuppy
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Uh, no, that doesn't make it rational. That just means you don't understand the situation. And that's precisely the circumstances under which you are most likely to make irrational assumptions.
Nice idea in a lab, but in the real world it is guaranteed that absolutely no one understands everything. Understanding what's on the mind of 100 million voters? There is no one who has anything more than an approximate understanding of that.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Because most people haven't responded in this manner. Plus, even more importantly, the state hasn't responded in this manner. Trump cannot ultimately do what he wants to do. Congress isn't really with him (and won't be even if it stays Republican), his base isn't influential with the rest of the populace (what happens in the urban centers affects the rest of the country, but not much the other way around), and the bureaucracy of government is actively hostile to him. Government employees are going to try to thwart him even on the normal stuff. A rational examination of the issue shows that, above all, Trump is likely to be an ineffective president.
Yeah, I get that and I hope so. It looks that way now. You have no fear of the situation changing for the worse? That never happens?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But she wasn't. That's the point. In the primaries, she was helping him.
That's still stupid. Even if I were to accept the claim that she wanted him to win it's still not being done with intent to help him or the Republican party.

Have you read the memo cited by your article? I know the article agrees with your interpretation but do you realize the memo doesn't really say that?

Do you also agree with that article's assertion that Hillary essentially controls the Republican party (or at least did control them for some period of time) through clever manipulation?

The memo simply states that the Hillary campaign should tell the truth about the Republican base.
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Old 16th October 2016, 09:09 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Not a rational fear? Why? Simply because he isn't arguing for it now? He's inflaming his base. How do I know where it will stop? It's a rational fear when I already know he's inflamed a racist base larger than I thought possible. As I pointed out I don't consider those things to be guarantees, but I consider them worth consideration and worth preventing. In the face of evidence that the population has responded to racist demagogue more than I would have thought possible, how is it not rational to fear that I might be even more wrong than I suspected?

And you were claiming that Hillary, working against Trump, is somehow equivalent to Bannon/Breitbart working for Trump. Get back to the rationality of that please.
I have to reluctantly agree. There's still a very long step from Trump's utterly stupid and incendiary rhetoric to concentration camps.

Don't get me wrong: Trump is obviously a dangerous candidate. Even if he loses, he inflames the morons who believe that the election has been stolen from them, and this is a bad and dangerous thing.

But, no, I don't think that concentration camps are a reasonable fear if he wins.
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Old 16th October 2016, 09:11 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
But she wasn't. That's the point. In the primaries, she was helping him.
Pardon my ignorance, but precisely how did Hillary Clinton help Trump in the primaries?
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Old 16th October 2016, 09:26 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
If you consider Trump's personality, things could get very ugly if all of this plans are thwarted by Congress: he might do some serious off-the-reservation executive orders, just to prove to himself and the world that he is in charge of something...
Being the vindictive bastard that he is, I shudder to think what he would do to those who slight him when he has more than Twitter and lawyers at his disposal.
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Old 16th October 2016, 10:42 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but precisely how did Hillary Clinton help Trump in the primaries?

She went too easy on him.

If it hadn't had been for her and her meddling kids Kasich would have won the primary by a landslide.

Or something.
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Old 16th October 2016, 11:15 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Yeah, I get that and I hope so. It looks that way now. You have no fear of the situation changing for the worse? That never happens?
There's a rather yawning chasm between things being worse than they are now (which I expect regardless of who wins) and actual concentration camps.

Quote:
That's still stupid. Even if I were to accept the claim that she wanted him to win it's still not being done with intent to help him or the Republican party.
And drunk drivers don't mean to crash. Yet we still fault them for driving drunk. In fact, we fault them for driving drunk even if they don't crash. Why?

Quote:
The memo simply states that the Hillary campaign should tell the truth about the Republican base.
Yeah, no. It says more than that.
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Old 16th October 2016, 11:29 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but precisely how did Hillary Clinton help Trump in the primaries?

The most I've seen is something in the recently leaked emails that suggested a strategy to promote Trump, Cruz and Carson as legitimate candidates, because the Clinton campaign believed they would be easy to beat in the general election.

ETA: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016...ump-seriously/

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Old 16th October 2016, 12:07 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
That article makes an incredibly specious argument towards the end:

Quote:
According to a study by Media Research Center, the media divided their coverage of the Democratic candidates roughly in accordance with their performance in the race, spending approximately 58% of the time they dedicated to Democrats on covering Hillary Clinton, versus 42% on covering Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Clinton ultimately received 57% of the Democratic primary popular vote, compared to 43% for Bernie Sanders. However, on the Republican side, the media spent 60% of their time between January 1, 2016 and April 30, 2016 covering Donald Trump, in spite of the fact that Trump had only received 35% of the Republican popular vote at that time.
That leaves out some incredibly important facts: The Democratic Primary had only two people in it (see ETA), so 57 to 43 is darn close. On the other hand, Trump's 35% was obtained against a very large (up to 16 at one point).

Here are stats for February: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republ...arly_primaries

Trump had fully 32% of the vote in a field of 12. That's 4 times what an even race would lead to. He had fully 50% more than either of the two people in 2nd and 3rd place. That's makes him the clear leader and then it's easy to understand why he was getting coverage similar to Clinton's. He was obviously the most likely to be Clinton's opponent.

ETA: I just noticed that one Democrat, O'Malley, actually made it to the primary season. He did really poorly in Iowa and dropped out.
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Old 16th October 2016, 02:12 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
That article makes an incredibly specious argument towards the end:.

Oh, I didn't mean to present it as a wholly trustworthy article. I just did a quick Google search for "clinton 'pied piper'" and grabbed one that seemed to at least cover the thing I was talking about.

Thank you for dealing with that, though.
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Old 16th October 2016, 02:51 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Oh, I didn't mean to present it as a wholly trustworthy article. I just did a quick Google search for "clinton 'pied piper'" and grabbed one that seemed to at least cover the thing I was talking about.

Thank you for dealing with that, though.
You're welcome, and sorry if I implied you supported that part of the article. I didn't think you meant that, and thought you were just answering the question asked earlier.
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Old 16th October 2016, 03:10 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Hillary's own campaign emails.
The "leaked email" the article uses as a source is just a random PDF on Twitter. It would be more believable if it was an actual link to Wikileaks. Of course, that would be impossible, as the memo does not appear to exist on Wikileaks.
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Old 17th October 2016, 06:12 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Earthborn View Post
The "leaked email" the article uses as a source is just a random PDF on Twitter. It would be more believable if it was an actual link to Wikileaks. Of course, that would be impossible, as the memo does not appear to exist on Wikileaks.
Are you saying that it's a fake memo?

It wouldn't surprise me, but I would like to see evidence.
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Old 17th October 2016, 07:35 AM   #133
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What did Brite Breight Bright Radiantbart ever do to you?
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Old 17th October 2016, 10:17 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by DuvalHMFIC View Post
What did Brite Breight Bright Radiantbart ever do to you?
You've misspelled "Dim" four times there.
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Old 17th October 2016, 11:28 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Are you saying that it's a fake memo?

It wouldn't surprise me, but I would like to see evidence.
Maybe it's "fake but accurate".
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Old 17th October 2016, 06:01 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post

Please, tell me what is so appealing about a media that ignores the facts and only tells you what you want to hear.
You already have them ignoring facts and telling what you want to hear, so much so that they are coordinating with the DNC and hillary campaign. I'm sure you haven't heard of wikileaks?
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Old 19th October 2016, 10:26 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Amazing. You're so dead-set against Hillary that you're setting yourself up to blame Trump on her?

Is there any evil she's not responsible for?
It's been analyzed earlier on in the primary process that a Trump nomination was percieved as a win for Hillary. That's been a mentality held by people on this forum. One doesnt need to think Clinton is a lying scumbag to see how the idea could still gain traction. Your criticism in my opinion is lacking...

It was anticipated previously that had it been any other nominee... Clinton would have had an uphill climb... i fail to see why this got to be such a terrible thing to say
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:58 AM   #138
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Breitbart MUST be destroyed

We seem to be getting there:

Breitbartís Audience Has Dropped 72% Since Trump Took Office Ė As Other Right-Wing Sites Have Gained (The Wrap, Aug. 7, 2019)

The End of Breitbart (TYT, Aug. 13, 2019):
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:10 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Concentration camps? Seriously? Yeah, that's not a rational fear. And I can't reason you out of it, because you weren't reasoned into it.

Interesting that this thread got bumped.

I have to wonder if Ziggurat still thinks this wasn't a rational fear.
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Old 13th August 2019, 09:12 AM   #140
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To be fair we've successfully move the discussion from

"There won't be any concentration camps!" to "Those technically aren't concentration camps!"

which is about par for the course for internet discussions.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:03 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
Trump causes me to fear depression, concentration camps, large scale exile, and loss of, possibly war with, current allies. I've never been afraid of a presidential election in my life. That fear is only tempered by the possibility that he might not have a compliant congress or that he might be merely a figure head and turn the office effectively over to Pence.
^ The post to which Zig was responding.

I can't speak to depression and I have no idea what large scale exile is, but concentration camps are happening. While we aren't at war with current allies, we (or rather, Trump) certainly have pushed them away and diminished our credibility as a world leader. We did have a compliant congress for two years, but Trump has not been a figure head to Pence.

I'd say RecoveringYuppy was at least almost half-correct, maybe more.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:20 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
concentration camps are happening.
It's nice to think that we live in such a safe and prosperous world that temporarily detaining foreign nationals who have broken US law is what gets compared to Nazi Germany. There obviously aren't any serious problems for hysterical partisans to hyperventilate over.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:43 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It's nice to think that we live in such a safe and prosperous world that temporarily detaining foreign nationals who have broken US law is what gets compared to Nazi Germany. There obviously aren't any serious problems for hysterical partisans to hyperventilate over.

Neither of us said anything about Nazi Germany.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:51 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
I can't speak to depression and I have no idea what large scale exile is, but concentration camps are happening.
BTW I meant economic depression. Still very nervous about the economy. Unnecessary (IMO) trade war, attempted interference with the Fed, excessive tax cuts, massive boost in military spending. Lots of ways for things to go south.

He sure didn't become a mere figurehead or change stripes after the election.

ETA: I've been pleasantly surprised that he appears to be resisting hawks like Bolton.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:08 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It's nice to think that we live in such a safe and prosperous world that temporarily detaining foreign nationals who have broken US law...
Seeking asylum is not against US law.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
BTW I meant economic depression. Still very nervous about the economy. Unnecessary (IMO) trade war, attempted interference with the Fed, excessive tax cuts, massive boost in military spending. Lots of ways for things to go south.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

What's "large scale exile"? Like, people leaving the country?
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:14 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It's nice to think that we live in such a safe and prosperous world that temporarily detaining foreign nationals who have broken US law is what gets compared to Nazi Germany. There obviously aren't any serious problems for hysterical partisans to hyperventilate over.
Cool means Anne Frank really was a criminal, can we finally stop pretending that she was some innocent little girl?
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:17 AM   #148
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Can you imagine what this country would be like if we just let people come here with no documentation and just take whatever they wanted without benefiting the society that is already here?
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:27 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
Can you imagine what this country would be like if we just let people come here with no documentation and just take whatever they wanted without benefiting the society that is already here?
The horror!

It is laughable to suggest that such people would ever be welcomed here.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:35 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
It's nice to think that we live in such a safe and prosperous world that temporarily detaining foreign nationals who have broken US law is what gets compared to Nazi Germany. There obviously aren't any serious problems for hysterical partisans to hyperventilate over.
That's on you. No one mentioned the Nazis. The term is broader than that, and the US had concentration camps back in WWII.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:01 PM   #151
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2017: "Trump is not going to build concentration camps!'
2018: "Those aren't technically concentration camps!"
2019: "Okay, okay they are concentration camps but not like... Nazi concentration camps!"
2020: "They are totally different. The 'Work Makes You Free' sign over the front gate is in English, not in German."
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:27 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's on you. No one mentioned the Nazis. The term is broader than that, and the US had concentration camps back in WWII.
Really? ďConcentration campsĒ is not a dog whistle?
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:38 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Really? ďConcentration campsĒ is not a dog whistle?
It's a goddamn accurate term that doesn't become inaccurate because it makes Trump look bad.

Jesus ******* Christ do we have to wait until the mass shootings start or are we gonna get "Well technically they aren't using Lugers..." for that too?
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post

Jesus ******* Christ do we have to wait until the mass shootings start or are we gonna get "Well technically they aren't using Lugers..." for that too?
Mass hysteria has infected a supposedly skeptical forum.

Trump isnít going to order mass shootings. The USA is not in an emergency. This is akin to the right wing nuts who thought Obama was going to turn the USA into a communist dictatorship.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:47 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's a goddamn accurate term that doesn't become inaccurate because it makes Trump look bad.


It's also about pointing out that this prediction was made several years ago, and was largely accurate, despite being described as entirely irrational.

No, Sorry Trumpers, RecoveringYuppy called this one. Maybe you should stop and think a bit about what other "irrational" predictions you've dismissed out of hand might also come true.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:48 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Trump isnít going to order mass shootings.
Yeah he wasn't gonna throw people into camps either.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:51 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Trump isnít going to order mass shootings.
Are you thinking of death camps, rather than concentration camps?

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The USA is not in an emergency.
I agree, but Trump is claiming we are and, thus, concentration camps. Therein lies the problem.

Originally Posted by Giz View Post
This is akin to the right wing nuts who thought Obama was going to turn the USA into a communist dictatorship.
Except Obama didn't do anything vaguely communist. Can the same thing be said about Trump and fascism?
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:57 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The USA is not in an emergency. This is akin to the right wing nuts who thought Obama was going to turn the USA into a communist dictatorship.
It's not comparable at all. Obama didn't do or say anything while campaigning or in office that indicated he wanted to turn the USA into a communist dictatorship, unless the listener was either delusional or heavily into conspiracy theories. Trump regularly says things that indicate how much he wishes he could operate like a fascist dictator. Calling journalists enemies of the people, inciting his crowds to violence, threatening to throw his enemies in jail, claiming he's not accountable to the law, trying to shut down investigations into his misconduct, spreading conspiracy theories, constantly making comments about extending his period of rule, etc.

It's all there, and he does it in plain sight. Hell, his base loves him for it. The only thing that's required to see Trump's fascist leanings is to pay attention to what he actually says.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:01 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
No, Sorry Trumpers, RecoveringYuppy called this one.

Thanks, but I really don't think I can claim credit. I was expressing what I feared, not what I expected. My expectations at the time were more along the line of what I said in the second half of that post, that Pence would be the real authority.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:09 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Are you thinking of death camps, rather than concentration camps?
I was responding to JoeMorgue, when he said:
"Jesus ******* Christ do we have to wait until the mass shootings start or are we gonna get "Well technically they aren't using Lugers..." for that too? "


Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post

I agree, but Trump is claiming we are and, thus, concentration camps. Therein lies the problem.
I think that the term Concentration Camp is a deliberate attempt to reference Nazism Which is a ridiculous comparison (unless just about every government in the world are Nazis... which seems to devalue the term)

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post

Except Obama didn't do anything vaguely communist. Can the same thing be said about Trump and fascism?
Trump is a morally deplorable wretch. However, he has not done anything to appreciably make the USA fascist or destroy the constitution or democracy.

This is hysteria. The other side won and now you are fantasizing about human rights atrocities and looming descent into fascism. You should take a step back, a deep breath, and intone "I believe in multiparty democracy and that power will change hands backwards and forwards and I will respect that".
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