ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , church scandals , George Pell , roman catholic church , sex scandals

Reply
Old 23rd July 2019, 06:23 PM   #1441
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is what I suspect was the case. Keeping the lay folk ignorant and putting all the authority in the priest's hands, to tell it how it is, made the RCC strong. That is crumbling now, partly as a result of the lays doing some reading and independent appraisal, but certainly as a result of priests being knocked from their lofty perch, as more and more dirt is discovered about them.
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
One of my favorite little factoids, first pointed out to me by a history professor more than 50 years ago. The animals got the Anglo-Saxon names from the people raising them; the meats from the wealthier Norman people who got to eat them.

Back on topic, my answer to the thread title is "No, but it should be."

Well I sincerely hope you are wrong about that.

I have this theory about the essence of Catholicism being very much different from other Christianity - with the exception of the Orthodox Churches perhaps. As I mentioned in the above, the authority of the clergy is of paramount importance in the RCC, as distinct from most of the other churches. That is one reason why, in my theory, it is hurting so much now. Leaders in other sects fall from grace, (Jimmy Swaggart's and such), but the church goes on. These leaders are just walking the walk, and talking the talk, but the message is unblemished.

From my experience I have noticed that Catholics I come across, do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as it were. They blend in with the godless with little effort, cuss words are used with abandon, robust sexual talk is not avoided, and so on. Perhaps the belief in the pardoning power of the priest is so strong, transgressions are not so taboo. Priests lose their unblemished mystique and it all falls down.

Can't seem to get anyone engaged in this topic. Maybe my theory is crap.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd July 2019, 06:31 PM   #1442
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I sincerely hope you are wrong about that.

I have this theory about the essence of Catholicism being very much different from other Christianity - with the exception of the Orthodox Churches perhaps. As I mentioned in the above, the authority of the clergy is of paramount importance in the RCC, as distinct from most of the other churches. That is one reason why, in my theory, it is hurting so much now. Leaders in other sects fall from grace, (Jimmy Swaggart's and such), but the church goes on. These leaders are just walking the walk, and talking the talk, but the message is unblemished.

From my experience I have noticed that Catholics I come across, do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as it were. They blend in with the godless with little effort, cuss words are used with abandon, robust sexual talk is not avoided, and so on. Perhaps the belief in the pardoning power of the priest is so strong, transgressions are not so taboo. Priests lose their unblemished mystique and it all falls down.

Can't seem to get anyone engaged in this topic. Maybe my theory is crap.
Speculating here, but it might be due to the fact that the laity is removed from God by the clergy in the Catholic church. Protestants are all about their "personal relationship with God" - everything they do and everything they say is uniquely and individually overseen by the Almighty himself, so they're much more concerned with ensuring that their own behaviour is consistent with what they believe to be God's will, and that everyone else is super-aware of it. Catholics don't have this direct oversight - their relationship with God is mediated through the clergy, or through saints. They're a step removed, as it were, and so maybe don't feel as personally responsible for their own salvation as Protestants might.

This theory also might be crap.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2019, 01:51 PM   #1443
Rincewind
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Adirondacks, NY - with Magrat!
Posts: 8,097
To follow on from the mention of crap - The Anglo-Saxon words tend towards being earthier, or at least sounding that way.

For example: crap in Anglo-Saxon is ****, but excrement is the Norman-French.

I iamgine you can guess the A-S word!
__________________
I used to think I was happy. then I met Magrat...

Last edited by Rincewind; 24th July 2019 at 01:52 PM.
Rincewind is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 01:24 AM   #1444
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Which has given rise to a motley collection of word doublets, for example lamb/mutton, beef/cow and so forth. there are many, the french origin from the Normans and the english from saxon.
No doubt BJ is planning a linguistic purge.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 02:53 AM   #1445
Tassman
Muse
 
Tassman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 928
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I sincerely hope you are wrong about that.

I have this theory about the essence of Catholicism being very much different from other Christianity - with the exception of the Orthodox Churches perhaps. As I mentioned in the above, the authority of the clergy is of paramount importance in the RCC, as distinct from most of the other churches. That is one reason why, in my theory, it is hurting so much now. Leaders in other sects fall from grace, (Jimmy Swaggart's and such), but the church goes on. These leaders are just walking the walk, and talking the talk, but the message is unblemished.

From my experience I have noticed that Catholics I come across, do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as it were. They blend in with the godless with little effort, cuss words are used with abandon, robust sexual talk is not avoided, and so on. Perhaps the belief in the pardoning power of the priest is so strong, transgressions are not so taboo. Priests lose their unblemished mystique and it all falls down.

Can't seem to get anyone engaged in this topic. Maybe my theory is crap.
I'm sure you're correct. As well, I think, is that members of the RCC are not so opinionated about what the bible teaches because the interpretation is the purview of the clergy, not subject to the individual whims of the laity being guided by the Holy Spirit.
__________________
“He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” ― Douglas Adams.
Tassman is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 02:17 PM   #1446
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I have this theory about the essence of Catholicism being very much different from other Christianity - with the exception of the Orthodox Churches perhaps. As I mentioned in the above, the authority of the clergy is of paramount importance in the RCC, as distinct from most of the other churches. That is one reason why, in my theory, it is hurting so much now. Leaders in other sects fall from grace, (Jimmy Swaggart's and such), but the church goes on. These leaders are just walking the walk, and talking the talk, but the message is unblemished.

From my experience I have noticed that Catholics I come across, do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as it were. They blend in with the godless with little effort, cuss words are used with abandon, robust sexual talk is not avoided, and so on. Perhaps the belief in the pardoning power of the priest is so strong, transgressions are not so taboo. Priests lose their unblemished mystique and it all falls down.

Can't seem to get anyone engaged in this topic. Maybe my theory is crap.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Speculating here, but it might be due to the fact that the laity is removed from God by the clergy in the Catholic church. Protestants are all about their "personal relationship with God" - everything they do and everything they say is uniquely and individually overseen by the Almighty himself, so they're much more concerned with ensuring that their own behaviour is consistent with what they believe to be God's will, and that everyone else is super-aware of it. Catholics don't have this direct oversight - their relationship with God is mediated through the clergy, or through saints. They're a step removed, as it were, and so maybe don't feel as personally responsible for their own salvation as Protestants might.

This theory also might be crap.
Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
I'm sure you're correct. As well, I think, is that members of the RCC are not so opinionated about what the bible teaches because the interpretation is the purview of the clergy, not subject to the individual whims of the laity being guided by the Holy Spirit.

It seems we have something of a consensus about this. I think the subject is interesting. So interesting I would think someone would have written a book about it. Anyone know of any work of this kind?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 02:38 PM   #1447
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Couple of interesting news items this week of relevance to this thread.

In NSW a bill aimed at decriminalisation of late term abortions is been debated.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...tions/11381824

The bill looks to be set to pass with a record majority, in spite of the bleating of the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney Anthony Fisher, who has called the bill a "dream" for the abortion industry, and has urged all Catholics to rally against the bill.


In another news item a terminally ill woman has taken her own life in Victoria. She is the first to have taken advantage of the recently passed euthanasia legislation in that state. The Catholic Church once again failed to rally support for its stance on the matter.

The Roman Catholic view.
Euthanasia is a grave violation of the law of God, since it is the deliberate and morally unacceptable killing of a human person. The Roman Catholic church regards euthanasia as morally wrong. It has always taught the absolute and unchanging value of the commandment "You shall not kill".
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2019, 11:26 PM   #1448
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,540
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Couple of interesting news items this week of relevance to this thread.

In NSW a bill aimed at decriminalisation of late term abortions is been debated.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...tions/11381824

The bill looks to be set to pass with a record majority, in spite of the bleating of the Catholic Archbishop of Sydney Anthony Fisher, who has called the bill a "dream" for the abortion industry, and has urged all Catholics to rally against the bill.


In another news item a terminally ill woman has taken her own life in Victoria. She is the first to have taken advantage of the recently passed euthanasia legislation in that state. The Catholic Church once again failed to rally support for its stance on the matter.

The Roman Catholic view.
Euthanasia is a grave violation of the law of God, since it is the deliberate and morally unacceptable killing of a human person. The Roman Catholic church regards euthanasia as morally wrong. It has always taught the absolute and unchanging value of the commandment "You shall not kill".
Well, it hasn't always taught the absolute and unchanging value of "You shall not kill". Killing Jews and Muslims while on crusade was given as a penance in mass absolutions. There's the whole inquisition and Torquemada too.

Quote:
Torquemada, do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada, do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it you can't Torquemada anything.
- Mel Brooks.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2019, 03:36 PM   #1449
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Well, it hasn't always taught the absolute and unchanging value of "You shall not kill". Killing Jews and Muslims while on crusade was given as a penance in mass absolutions. There's the whole inquisition and Torquemada too.

- Mel Brooks.

Yes he was quite a dude that Torquemada. Only 400 years ago the Catholic Church let this guy have his head, and the carnage that ensued is now history. The Pope at the time was the real thing - I mean in the Fishermans shoes so to speak - so Catholics even today should acknowledge the legitimacy and justice dispensed.

Quote:
Tomás de Torquemada, (Thomas of Torquemada), O.P. (1420 -- September 16, 1498) was a 15th-century Spanish Dominican friar and the first Grand Inquisitor in Spain's movement to restore Christianity among its populace in the late 15th century.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 03:10 AM   #1450
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Well, it hasn't always taught the absolute and unchanging value of "You shall not kill".
Also the current RCC stance on ensoulment at birth, and hence the proscription of termination of pregnancy as homicide, dates to 1869.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 03:12 AM   #1451
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes he was quite a dude that Torquemada. Only 400 years ago the Catholic Church let this guy have his head, and the carnage that ensued is now history. The Pope at the time was the real thing - I mean in the Fishermans shoes so to speak - so Catholics even today should acknowledge the legitimacy and justice dispensed.
He wasn't alone. Don't forget Amalric, two centuries earlier.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 01:59 PM   #1452
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Also the current RCC stance on ensoulment at birth, and hence the proscription of termination of pregnancy as homicide, dates to 1869.

Ensoulment at conception you mean I think.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2019, 02:08 PM   #1453
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
He wasn't alone. Don't forget Amalric, two centuries earlier.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

No argument with that. The point I am making however, is that modern day Catholics have to admit ownership of these atrocities, as they cling to the notion of "The one true church". That notion assumes a succession from the original institution instigated by Jesus himself - "Thou art Peter ......"
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 9th August 2019, 12:36 AM   #1454
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,540
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
He wasn't alone. Don't forget Amalric, two centuries earlier.
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.
No argument. Mel Brooks just never made a play on words with Amalric's name though.
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2019, 06:36 AM   #1455
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Ensoulment at conception you mean I think.
Oopsie, my mistake.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2019, 03:08 PM   #1456
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
After the recommendation by the Royal Commission, something is happening at last in Victoria, to compel priests by law to break the seal of confession.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...gures/11409944

Quote:
Anti-abuse advocate Chrissie Foster has urged Victorian MPs to back a bill before Parliament which would make it mandatory for priests to report suspected child abuse to authorities, breaking legal protection around the confessional seal.
I this a first in the World? And if it has happened elsewhere, how did it work out?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2019, 04:13 PM   #1457
acbytesla
Penultimate Amazing
 
acbytesla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 21,802
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well I sincerely hope you are wrong about that.

I have this theory about the essence of Catholicism being very much different from other Christianity - with the exception of the Orthodox Churches perhaps. As I mentioned in the above, the authority of the clergy is of paramount importance in the RCC, as distinct from most of the other churches. That is one reason why, in my theory, it is hurting so much now. Leaders in other sects fall from grace, (Jimmy Swaggart's and such), but the church goes on. These leaders are just walking the walk, and talking the talk, but the message is unblemished.

From my experience I have noticed that Catholics I come across, do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as it were. They blend in with the godless with little effort, cuss words are used with abandon, robust sexual talk is not avoided, and so on. Perhaps the belief in the pardoning power of the priest is so strong, transgressions are not so taboo. Priests lose their unblemished mystique and it all falls down.

Can't seem to get anyone engaged in this topic. Maybe my theory is crap.
I have always thought the idea that Catholicism being different than other Christianity to be the most ironic of jokes given that the farcical religion is entirely derived from Catholic roots.

But i get your idea. The idea that you can do whatever you want on Friday and Saturday knowing you could confess it on Sunday. But it seems to me though, lots of Christians irrespective of their denomination have no problem sinning like crazy because they believe.

At least the Catholics believe that faith alone is not enough for salvation. That faith must also be accompanied by good works. Most protestant sects believe that all that is required is faith alone.

As a former Christian, I knew lots of loose women who attended church regularly.
__________________
Try
Science, not superstition.
Reason, not revelation.
Education, not epiphanies
Intellect, not ignorance.
.
acbytesla is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th August 2019, 05:27 PM   #1458
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
After the recommendation by the Royal Commission, something is happening at last in Victoria, to compel priests by law to break the seal of confession.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...gures/11409944



I this a first in the World? And if it has happened elsewhere, how did it work out?
I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened anywhere else in the world, and as pointed out earlier in this thread, priests will willingly break that law. Canon law overrides secular law.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th August 2019, 02:30 PM   #1459
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened anywhere else in the world, and as pointed out earlier in this thread, priests will willingly break that law. Canon law overrides secular law.

Be interesting to see what happens in Victoria then. Getting evidence of the law being broken would be a challenge. Bugs being planted in confessional booths perhaps, or plants making bogus confessions to nail the priest?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th August 2019, 02:35 PM   #1460
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Developments in Singapore:

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...s_24082018_cna

Quote:
While the church in Singapore*has an office that deals with allegations*of sexual abuse, it has*not been mandatory to report them, the*Archdiocese Professional Standards Office (PSO)
And:

Quote:
The Most Reverend William Goh said last year that a handful of cases had emerged in Singapore. The cases were handed over to the PSO for investigation and all have been judged to be inconclusive, he had said then.
Inconclusive? Sounds like more ducking and weaving to me.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th August 2019, 06:10 PM   #1461
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting to see what happens in Victoria then. Getting evidence of the law being broken would be a challenge. Bugs being planted in confessional booths perhaps, or plants making bogus confessions to nail the priest?
Or the perpetrator being caught in some other way, and then it comes out in trial that they had confessed to a confessor?

I don't think this'll ever happen though. I don't think a paedophile would actually confess their crime to a priest.

And as I said...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...ssion/11414254
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th August 2019, 01:26 AM   #1462
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 24,699
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Be interesting to see what happens in Victoria then. Getting evidence of the law being broken would be a challenge. Bugs being planted in confessional booths perhaps, or plants making bogus confessions to nail the priest?
It would be simple to avoid. A sign outside confession saying that they cannot hear confessions about child abuse. Then refuse to take any such confession.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th August 2019, 03:07 PM   #1463
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Or the perpetrator being caught in some other way, and then it comes out in trial that they had confessed to a confessor?

I don't think this'll ever happen though. I don't think a paedophile would actually confess their crime to a priest.

And as I said...

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-...ssion/11414254
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
It would be simple to avoid. A sign outside confession saying that they cannot hear confessions about child abuse. Then refuse to take any such confession.

I find this hard to get my head around.

As I understand it, a foundational belief in Catholicism, is the need to confess your sins in order to qualify for admission to heaven, or perhaps even the half way house of purgatory. How can a devout Catholic shrug this off, in order to avoid the inconvenience of a minor punishment in this life. Way out of proportion!

What does make sense to me is the lack of real belief by many Catholics - even clergy - in all this tosh. This would explain the dogged resistance of many to come clean and confess their guilt.*

* Pell's appeal is being decided upon next Wednesday. Watch this space.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th August 2019, 05:39 PM   #1464
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I find this hard to get my head around.

As I understand it, a foundational belief in Catholicism, is the need to confess your sins in order to qualify for admission to heaven, or perhaps even the half way house of purgatory. How can a devout Catholic shrug this off, in order to avoid the inconvenience of a minor punishment in this life. Way out of proportion!
This is why I don't believe that any priest will ever be prosecuted for not reporting the confession of a child abuser.

Several priests have stated that they will not report a child abuser, but at the same time they will not provide absolution until the abuser turns themself in to the police. If a Catholic is sufficiently devout to believe in confession, then they are sufficiently devout to believe in absolution, and in the Eucharist that the lack of absolution will deny to them. That's why a child abuser will never confess their crime to a priest.

If a priest does actually provide absolution to such an offender, and this is found out at a later date, then that priest should definitely go to jail. But I don't think it'll happen.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th August 2019, 06:18 PM   #1465
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Alexandria, VA Home to the Deep State.
Posts: 18,540
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Developments in Singapore:

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news...s_24082018_cna



And:



Inconclusive? Sounds like more ducking and weaving to me.
I'm forced to wonder how many of those instances were found inconclusive due to incompetent investigation by church authorities. Child testimony is fragile and can nullified by incompetent examination by a person untrained in investigating child sex crimes.

If the lowliest of Catholic school employee came to work one morning and found the safe where the money paid by students for their lunches had been broken into. they are almost certainly trained to call the police and not touch anything. Why is that not the case with child sexual abuse?
__________________
A MAGA hat = a Swastika arm band.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 06:42 AM   #1466
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 86,804
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is why I don't believe that any priest will ever be prosecuted for not reporting the confession of a child abuser.



Several priests have stated that they will not report a child abuser, but at the same time they will not provide absolution until the abuser turns themself in to the police. If a Catholic is sufficiently devout to believe in confession, then they are sufficiently devout to believe in absolution, and in the Eucharist that the lack of absolution will deny to them. That's why a child abuser will never confess their crime to a priest.



If a priest does actually provide absolution to such an offender, and this is found out at a later date, then that priest should definitely go to jail. But I don't think it'll happen.


On what theological grounds would the priest deny absolution.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 06:54 AM   #1467
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 86,804
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
I'm forced to wonder how many of those instances were found inconclusive due to incompetent investigation by church authorities. Child testimony is fragile and can nullified by incompetent examination by a person untrained in investigating child sex crimes.



If the lowliest of Catholic school employee came to work one morning and found the safe where the money paid by students for their lunches had been broken into. they are almost certainly trained to call the police and not touch anything. Why is that not the case with child sexual abuse?


Totally different, money is much more important!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 07:05 AM   #1468
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,868
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
On what theological grounds would the priest deny absolution.
Quite. Consider an abuser entering the confessional...
Quote:
I come before you humble and contrite to confess my sin. I abused a child. I am truly sorry.
What will the priest do? In practice, three hail marys and "Go forth and sin no more". Somehow, the notion that the priest should be saying "Holy sweet baby jebus, this is a vile child molester" does not even enter the equation.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 01:26 PM   #1469
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
This is why I don't believe that any priest will ever be prosecuted for not reporting the confession of a child abuser.

Several priests have stated that they will not report a child abuser, but at the same time they will not provide absolution until the abuser turns themself in to the police. If a Catholic is sufficiently devout to believe in confession, then they are sufficiently devout to believe in absolution, and in the Eucharist that the lack of absolution will deny to them. That's why a child abuser will never confess their crime to a priest.

If a priest does actually provide absolution to such an offender, and this is found out at a later date, then that priest should definitely go to jail. But I don't think it'll happen.

This only makes sense, if the child abusing confessor thinks he will be granted absolution, if his confession is incomplete. God is ignorant of his really nasty transgressions ....... no omniscience then?
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 01:39 PM   #1470
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,868
Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This only makes sense, if the child abusing confessor thinks he will be granted absolution, if his confession is incomplete. God is ignorant of his really nasty transgressions ....... no omniscience then?
Not how it works. Arth makes the mistake in thinking that the abuser is seeking absolution. He/she isn't. The fact that the priest withholds absolution is irrelevant, the abuser has told someone of his deeds, someone who will tell nobody else about it and the abuser can rely upon that. It is the thrill of sharing the excitement of the scurrilous act with another without consequence.
Were it you or I we would both be on the emergency call line immediately. Priests? Not so much.

This is why the sanctity of the confessional must be broken. Until it is broken, the priesthood are equally guilty. They are covering it up. Why? Because they are complicit in these scummy crimes.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 02:27 PM   #1471
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
On what theological grounds would the priest deny absolution.
Lack of sincere repentance. Specifically three elements must be present;
1. Complete and full account of all grave sins
2. Acceptance that the sin was wrong and regret for it, i.e. genuine repentence
3. Sincere intention to avoid committing the sinful act in future
This is covered in Canon 760.

There are other aspects, e.g. Canon 977 covering the invalidity of the absolution of a 'partner in sin'.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 04:01 PM   #1472
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 86,804
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Lack of sincere repentance. Specifically three elements must be present;

1. Complete and full account of all grave sins

2. Acceptance that the sin was wrong and regret for it, i.e. genuine repentence

3. Sincere intention to avoid committing the sinful act in future

This is covered in Canon 760.



There are other aspects, e.g. Canon 977 covering the invalidity of the absolution of a 'partner in sin'.
Not quite what I had in mind as I was assuming the hypothetical child abuser was sincere, so the above would be met. As far as I know if the above is met then the priest doesn't have a theological argument to not grant absolution.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 08:47 PM   #1473
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Lack of sincere repentance. Specifically three elements must be present;
1. Complete and full account of all grave sins
2. Acceptance that the sin was wrong and regret for it, i.e. genuine repentence
3. Sincere intention to avoid committing the sinful act in future
This is covered in Canon 760.

There are other aspects, e.g. Canon 977 covering the invalidity of the absolution of a 'partner in sin'.

Yes catsmate that is what I am on about.

If the child molester does not confess to that sin then no absolution would be forthcoming, no matter how many rosaries and hail Maries are done. If said molester goes through the motions of confession and doesn't come clean, then it's all a sham and his faith is in question.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th August 2019, 09:19 PM   #1474
8enotto
Muse
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Mexico
Posts: 950
The problem with that is if there is no highest authority and no heaven or hell the entire confession is a sham.

It's to console the sinner, give him a clean start on the future. If said sinner has bad urges and doesn't ever regret them, or how he acted on them he won't need consolation.

I can tell anyone from childhood experience how it is supposed to work but I had twisted ethics. If I liked said sin and planned on doing it again no way I was telling anyone, ever. Even kiddy crimes stop working when you admit you do it.
I would never say any hail Mary's or prayers at all. No possible way.

If the offender priest feels no regret and manages to avoid victims coming forth he has no reason to confess. If for some reason he does its because there is shame, he feels unhealthy for it. Asking for help maybe?

Last edited by 8enotto; 17th August 2019 at 09:27 PM.
8enotto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th August 2019, 07:17 PM   #1475
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Not how it works. Arth makes the mistake in thinking that the abuser is seeking absolution. He/she isn't. The fact that the priest withholds absolution is irrelevant, the abuser has told someone of his deeds, someone who will tell nobody else about it and the abuser can rely upon that. It is the thrill of sharing the excitement of the scurrilous act with another without consequence.
Were it you or I we would both be on the emergency call line immediately. Priests? Not so much.

This is why the sanctity of the confessional must be broken. Until it is broken, the priesthood are equally guilty. They are covering it up. Why? Because they are complicit in these scummy crimes.
Absolution is the purpose of confession. You confess your sins so that you can be absolved of them, so that you can participate in the Eucharist.

Of course it's possible that an abuser might just go in there to brag and laugh, because he knows that the priest can't tell anyone, but I don't think that would be very common.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 07:20 AM   #1476
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,691
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not quite what I had in mind as I was assuming the hypothetical child abuser was sincere, so the above would be met. As far as I know if the above is met then the priest doesn't have a theological argument to not grant absolution.
Indeed not. However the priest would be empowered to refuse absolution if he disn't believe the repentance was sincere (which could well include confession to the secular authorities) or that the sinner would repeat the sin.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 03:00 PM   #1477
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Absolution is the purpose of confession. You confess your sins so that you can be absolved of them, so that you can participate in the Eucharist.

They can't have it both ways. As you wrote:

Quote:
If a Catholic is sufficiently devout to believe in confession, then they are sufficiently devout to believe in absolution, and in the Eucharist that the lack of absolution will deny to them. That's why a child abuser will never confess their crime to a priest
.


If the abuser won't confess to a priest, then the absolution granted by the priest for the other lesser sins, will be insincere and incomplete. A less than absolute absolution if you like.

The confessor therefore thinks he can fool God by leaving it out, or he just doesn't believe in this hocus-pocus anyway. He is just going through motions for show because his belief is lacking.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 05:41 PM   #1478
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 18,868
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Absolution is the purpose of confession. You confess your sins so that you can be absolved of them, so that you can participate in the Eucharist.

Of course it's possible that an abuser might just go in there to brag and laugh, because he knows that the priest can't tell anyone, but I don't think that would be very common.
How odd. You somehow believe that all attendees at confession MUST believe all of the dogma without exception.

At some level, you must know that is a foolish contention. I need venture no further than my own childhood to falsify that.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 06:01 PM   #1479
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
How odd. You somehow believe that all attendees at confession MUST believe all of the dogma without exception.

At some level, you must know that is a foolish contention. I need venture no further than my own childhood to falsify that.
I do feel that most Catholics take their religion seriously, yes.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th August 2019, 06:10 PM   #1480
Thor 2
Philosopher
 
Thor 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Brisbane, Aust.
Posts: 5,319
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I do feel that most Catholics take their religion seriously, yes.

From the ever reliable Wiki:

Quote:
Catholic atheism is a belief in which the culture, traditions, rituals and norms of Catholicism are accepted, but the existence of God is rejected. It is illustrated in Miguel de Unamuno's novel San Manuel Bueno, Mártir (1930). According to research in 2007, only 27% of Catholics in the Netherlands considered themselves theist while 55% were ietsist or agnostic deist and 17% were agnostic or atheist. Many Dutch people still affiliate with the term "Catholic" and use it within certain traditions as a basis of their cultural identity, rather than as a religious identity. The vast majority of the Catholic population in the Netherlands is now largely irreligious in practice.[6] However, a 2010 study failed to locate any atheist Catholic priests.[10]

Unlikely to be upfront about it I think.
__________________
Thinking is a faith hazard.
Thor 2 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:56 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.