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Tags !MOD BOX WARNING! , Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old 11th August 2019, 11:31 AM   #1761
LondonJohn
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Hmmm. Transferred to Turin in 2013, but statute of limitations ran out in 2016. THREE YEARS (or at least two years if it happened to have been Dec 13 - Jan 16). Either a(nother) searing indictment of the Italian criminal justice system's inefficiency..... or something a little more sinister.

Love Mignini's quote there as well: "It took me seven years to be right". Not "It took seven years for the correct process to be followed" or "It took seven years for the courts to find in my favour". More grandstanding narcissism from our favourite Italian prosecutor
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Old 11th August 2019, 01:15 PM   #1762
Numbers
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Hmmm. Transferred to Turin in 2013, but statute of limitations ran out in 2016. THREE YEARS (or at least two years if it happened to have been Dec 13 - Jan 16). Either a(nother) searing indictment of the Italian criminal justice system's inefficiency..... or something a little more sinister.

Love Mignini's quote there as well: "It took me seven years to be right". Not "It took seven years for the correct process to be followed" or "It took seven years for the courts to find in my favour". More grandstanding narcissism from our favourite Italian prosecutor
But it's interesting to look closely at the errors of the Florence judiciary as well, as stated in the Wikipedia article:

".... Mignini objected that the Florence Magistrates had no jurisdiction on him because of their office's conflict of interest and requested that the investigation be moved to Turin. Preliminary judge {of the Florence judiciary} Dania Mori turned down his request. ....

In November 2011, a Court of Appeals accepted his {Mignini's} preliminary objection and annulled the previous conviction, also declaring the prosecution by Florentine magistrates illegitimate - since some of the Florence prosecutors were also the offended parties - and sent the investigation file to a prosecutor in Turin. The Prosecution General of Florence appealed against the decision at the Supreme Court, so factually blocking the transfer to Turin for at least another year. In February 2013 the Florence office lost their appeal and the Supreme Court ordered the investigation be moved to Turin. Mignini said "It took me 7 years to be right". In 2016, the court of Turin dropped the remaining charges due to statutory terms expiration."

If the preliminary judge from Florence had ruled sensibly, the case would have gone to Turin and potentially would have been resolved within the statute of limitations. Similarly, a year was wasted by the Florence prosecutor appealing the 2011 Court of Appeals ruling.

The Italian judiciary and prosecutors should understand conflict of interest just as Mignini did. Oh wait, apparently neither he nor the Perugia courts understand it either ... because otherwise Amanda's complaints about her mistreatment during the interrogation would have referred to an independent prosecutor.

It's possible that the whole trial of Mignini was meant as a kind of warning, not a serious attempt at obtaining a conviction. And/or the Italian courts and prosecutors are incredibly incompetent.

And it's possible the whole exercise of prosecuting Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito was motivated as a means of preventing any prosecution of the police or Mignini for the illegal interrogation mistreatment of Amanda.
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Old 11th August 2019, 02:02 PM   #1763
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
In Italy it is illegal to libel the police and the justice system. This was a law brought in to control the nefarious activities of the mafia, one of whose favourite tactics was to do just that.


Edda's and Curt's PR campaign to blacken the name of the Italians was not only contemptible and self-serving but also amounted to breaking Italian law.

A prosecutor has no choice but to prosecute whenever the law is broken. That is the job description of a prosecutor.
Vixen feels happy to live in a country where criticising police/prosecutors is a criminal offence. When Vixen talks about libeling the police could Vixen define what she means by libel. Does this only refer to instances where there is a clear evidence someone has made a false claim against the police. For instance, someone makes a claim a policeman swore at him but the policeman produces body cam footage which shows this claim is false. Someone makes a claim of police misconduct but can't prove it. Should he still be prosecuted under libel. For instance, the police raid someone's house and the suspect insists the police planted drugs but can't prove it. Should any criticism of the police be a criminal offence even there is conclusive evidence of misconduct. For instance, a policeman assaults someone and it is caught on CCTV. Should it be a criminal offence to point out the policeman has assaulted someone even when there is slam dunk evidence of this.

Vixen claims the name of the Italians was blackened by Edda and Curt's PR campaign. As can be seen in the links below numerous abuses were committed against Amand and Raffaele at the hands of the Italian Justice System. Why was PR necessary to blacken the name of the Italians when they did a perfectly good job themselves?

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/raffaeles-kitchen-knife/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/contam...bwork-coverup/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/meredi...ry-corruption/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/evidence-destroyed/

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/blood-...irs-apartment/

https://knoxsollecito.wordpress.com/...ele-sollecito/

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/myths.html

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...howthread.php?
postid=11071314#post11071314
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Old 11th August 2019, 02:26 PM   #1764
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What dreadful gibberish. Mignini was only the prosecutor for the first merits court. It was Crini and Commodi who took over at the appeals.

[...]
If the above is true, I wonder why a certain Dottore Mignini is reading a certain letter to the Hellmann appeal court, as captured in this video?
Meredith, Rudy accusa Amanda e Raffaele. Ecco il video integrale...

Just for the record (Vixen apparently was fooled by this one):
Netflixhoax 29: Which Took A Harder Line Against Sollecito & Knox? The Prosecutors Or The Courts?
Quote:
Dr Mignini was indeed the first prosecutor in the Perugia case. But from late in 2008 when a trial became a near-certainty he shared the job with Dr Comodi.

She herself is well known throughout Italy as a fine prosecutor in her own right.

In 2011 new prosecutors (in Florence) took on the Hellman appeal. New prosecutors (in Florence) took on the Nencini appeal. And there were no prosecutors at all at the Supreme Court in Rome in 2012 and 2015 - In each session it was judges who presented the case as best they could.

(Oh, did Netflix not tell you that?!)
According to that one the Hellmann appeal took place in Florence...
Just for the record
...---...
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Old 11th August 2019, 03:03 PM   #1765
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
[...]

A prosecutor has no choice but to prosecute whenever the law is broken. That is the job description of a prosecutor.
Wrong. "No plaintiff, no judge" is the rule also in Italy...

With apparently one exception that is calunnia (Art. 368 cp)...
As it was demonstrated by judge Nencini during closing arguments (pages 193-195):
Quote:
Pertanto credo che... ora a integrazione, il collega Magnante è precisissimo, Presidente, per tornare al discorso dell’HIV, noi abbiamo trovato i riferimenti. Stanno nel diario. Nel diario a pagina 33, sequestrato, lei parla che “la scorsa notte” – parliamo del 22 novembre 2007, quindicesimo giorno, questo è il suo diario personale – “la scorsa notte, poco prima di andare a letto mi hanno fatto scendere per vedere ancora un altro dottore; aveva i risultati di un test che mi aveva fatto, secondo i quali ero positiva all’HIV; mi ha anche detto di non preoccuparmi perché potrebbe trattarsi di un errore; mi faranno il test la prossima settimana. La mia testa, un atroce mal di testa, come mai? Sono in prigione per un crimine e potrei anche avere l’HIV. Voglio sposarmi, voglio avere dei bambini, voglio creare qualcosa di positivo, voglio diventare vecchia, voglio il mio tempo, voglio la mia vita. Perché tutto questo? Non riesco a credere”. Ecco la lista delle persone con cui ha avuto... quindi c’è un riferimento ben preciso su questo. E la circostanza viene anche riferita alla mamma, quindi c’è l’intercettazione e c’è anche la deposizione del 19/06 del 2009, pagina 83, di Edda Mellas, che è la mamma, la quale anche lei dice che appunto la figlia avrebbe riferito, confidato, che in carcere a un certo punto gli hanno fatto un accertamento medico ed è risultata positiva all’HIV. E poi spiega che poi in realtà il problema si è risolto. Quindi la circostanza viene provata da questi elementi.
PRESIDENTE – Sì. Ora, mi scusi l’interruzione, ma volevo chiarire questo aspetto perché non vorrei si desse l’impressione, o aver dato l’impressione di essere, come dire, estremamente pignolo su questioni di certificati. Ma siccome se Dio vuole è tutto registrato, possiamo risentirlo se vogliamo...
AVV. DALLA VEDOVA – No...
PRESIDENTE - ...nella parte della sua arringa, si capiva che vi erano state due analisi fatte, si capiva, per ottenere delle informazioni dalla Amanda Knox e poi, una volta ottenute le informazioni, si era tranquillizzata la Amanda Knox sul fatto che non era più sieropositiva. Ora, siccome tutta questa attività, se fosse avvenuta, e mi pare di capire che non è avvenuta, con queste finalità, avrebbe dei profili di rilevanza penale, e questa Corte...
AVV. DALLA VEDOVA – Certo.
PRESIDENTE - ...aveva l’obbligo...
AVV. DALLA VEDOVA – Certo.
PRESIDENTE - ...di segnalarli , io ho voluto chiarire questo aspetto, perché poi verba volant, scripta manent.Il verbale è qualcosa che deve corrispondere alla realtà. Oggi, ora viene fuori in maniera molto esatta, che fu fatto quindi un accertamento su Amanda, che fu sbagliato, come tante volte capita, fu ripetuto e fu... e queste notizie provengono da Amanda Knox. Adesso è chiarito l’aspetto, ma non era un’attività, come dire, cervellotica della Corte.
AVV. DALLA VEDOVA – No.
PRESIDENTE – Era per non ritrovarsi poi nella spiacevole situazione, in Camera di Consiglio, di dover decidere che cosa fare di un verbale. Ecco, non volevamo trovarci in questa spiacevolissima situazione. Bene. Detto questo, prego
...
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Old 11th August 2019, 03:23 PM   #1766
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
What dreadful gibberish. Mignini was only the prosecutor for the first merits court. It was Crini and Commodi who took over at the appeals.

Oh don't tell me: 'all Italian prosecutors are in a conspiracy to frame Amanda Knox'.
Um, no. Mignini was a prosecutor in the Hellmann appeal trial in Perugia (not Florence). NEXT!
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Old 11th August 2019, 03:27 PM   #1767
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
If the above is true, I wonder why a certain Dottore Mignini is reading a certain letter to the Hellmann appeal court, as captured in this video?
Meredith, Rudy accusa Amanda e Raffaele. Ecco il video integrale...

Just for the record (Vixen apparently was fooled by this one):
Netflixhoax 29: Which Took A Harder Line Against Sollecito & Knox? The Prosecutors Or The Courts?

According to that one the Hellmann appeal took place in Florence...
Just for the record
...---...
That's a fake video put out by the massive million dollar PR machine!: Jaw-dropp
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Old 11th August 2019, 06:59 PM   #1768
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
It's possible that the whole trial of Mignini was meant as a kind of warning, not a serious attempt at obtaining a conviction. And/or the Italian courts and prosecutors are incredibly incompetent.

And it's possible the whole exercise of prosecuting Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito was motivated as a means of preventing any prosecution of the police or Mignini for the illegal interrogation mistreatment of Amanda.
Mignini should write a book, because there are things about all this that he is not telling us. (This accusation of is shamelessly lift from barbie Nadeau.)

The book would begin with the sentence he once let slip to one of the news agencies which, if I remember correctly (Methos?), was. "My troubles started with the Narducci investigation."

If George Clooney ever does his "Monster of Florence" film, in which he plays Douglas Preston, the very last scene will be....

Mignini being driven down to a small cottage in the student district of Perugia where a murder victim had just been found by Postal Police, where the body had been locked in her own bedroom. On the way down, Mignini was musing the trouble he, himself, was in with the formal charges brought against him for abuse of office. He thought to himself, "If I'd been that prosecutor, I'd have had myself put in preventative detention. But here I am, going to yet another, more garden variety case."

As he exits his car he walks toward the mutli-level cottage, quickly making note to himself that that broken, upper-storey window could not have been an entry-point. But he's interrupted by Napoeloni, who is the cop in charge of the crime-scene. It is her first case in which she is the lead.

Napoleoni points out a young couple standing alone off to one side, and motions for them to come over to meet the PM. The young woman couldn't be more than 20 years-old, and in very simple, heavily American-accented Italian says to him:

"Mi chiamo Amanda Knox. Sono il coinquilino della vittima."
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Old 11th August 2019, 10:29 PM   #1769
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Bill, Bill, Bill...don't you know that making up scenarios that never happened is what the prosecution and the PGP (and one in particular with a very vivid imagination), do?
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Old 11th August 2019, 10:44 PM   #1770
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Bill, Bill, Bill...don't you know that making up scenarios that never happened is what the prosecution and the PGP (and one in particular with a very vivid imagination), do?
Forgive me, I'm a draftee. But my spelling is poor.
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Old 12th August 2019, 04:38 AM   #1771
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
Mignini should write a book, because there are things about all this that he is not telling us. (This accusation of is shamelessly lift from barbie Nadeau.)

The book would begin with the sentence he once let slip to one of the news agencies which, if I remember correctly (Methos?), was. "My troubles started with the Narducci investigation."

[...]
I think this is the quote you are looking for (from The Guardian, Oct 3rd, 2011):
Quote:
Just before the final summing up in the Knox appeal began, Mignini discussed his handling of an older case, the "Monster of Florence" serial killer, and his belief that his investigation of the 1985 death of a freemason, Francesco Narducci, that he linked to the case was mysteriously blocked.

"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."
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Old 12th August 2019, 07:35 AM   #1772
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
I think this is the quote you are looking for (from The Guardian, Oct 3rd, 2011):
You da man!

Me, the lurker.
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Old 12th August 2019, 10:47 AM   #1773
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"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."

He indicts 20 people in a massive cover up conspiracy theory about a double body switch, all of whom are later acquitted, and he's the 'victim'?
Feelings of persecution much there, Giuliano?
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:37 AM   #1774
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."

He indicts 20 people in a massive cover up conspiracy theory about a double body switch, all of whom are later acquitted, and he's the 'victim'?
Feelings of persecution much there, Giuliano?
It actually is not many people at all, but there are people out there in Italy who still regard Mignini as a victim of the Narducci investigation (a so-called victimization which they see as extending into Mignini's persecution of AK and RS and a lot of people who supported them) - these people are completely blind to the well-earned abuse of office charges he ran into, even if he "beat the rap" on what I regard as a (convenient) technicality. Mignini gave it the old college try, to extend that persecution to Douglas Preston. It seems that even his judicial enemies in Italy did not want to take it as far as sending him to prison. A PM in prison!?

Of course there are the remaining English-language guilter-nutters congregated around the sole remaining on-line presence of Mignini-fans: TJMK. Look at how Vixen responds to criticism of Mignini. The man can do know wrong.
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Old 12th August 2019, 11:53 AM   #1775
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Contrast the guilter deification of Mignini and co with what people say about the police/prosecutors in the OJ Simpson/Casey Anthony/Jonbenet Ramsey cases. The people expect convictions and are unhappy when the state doesn't get them.

An alien visiting earth that doesn't understand our customs/emotions/biases/delusions but can process basic logic and reasoning would guess that FOAKERs would love Mignini (since he failed at his job to secure convictions against Amanda) and guilters would hate him (since he failed at his job to secure convictions against Amanda). Then be surprised to find the opposite.

Last edited by bagels; 12th August 2019 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 12th August 2019, 12:45 PM   #1776
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Contrast the guilter deification of Mignini and co with what people say about the police/prosecutors in the OJ Simpson/Casey Anthony/Jonbenet Ramsey cases. The people expect convictions and are unhappy when the state doesn't get them.

An alien visiting earth that doesn't understand our customs/emotions/biases/delusions but can process basic logic and reasoning would guess that FOAKERs would love Mignini (since he failed at his job to secure convictions against Amanda) and guilters would hate him (since he failed at his job to secure convictions against Amanda). Then be surprised to find the opposite.
It's really rather easy to understand the PGP vision of Mignini: he was the man trying heroically to get two killers rightly convicted but couldn't overcome the powerful dark forces of the mafia, Freemasons, and the US government conspiring to 'get them off'. Conti, Vecchiotti, defense experts, and even judges were 'bent' and in bed with the defense.
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Old 12th August 2019, 01:39 PM   #1777
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
"I have felt under attack ever since I investigated Narducci," he told the Guardian. "It all started there."

He indicts 20 people in a massive cover up conspiracy theory about a double body switch, all of whom are later acquitted, and he's the 'victim'?
Feelings of persecution much there, Giuliano?
It's interesting that Dottore Mignini is singing this song since 2008. The following quote is from his closing arguments in front of judge Micheli (pages 2 and 3):
Quote:
Ma non basta ancora: supportati da qualche noto giallista, totalmente sprovvisto di cultura giuridica specie degli ordinamenti stranieri e terrorizzato da inesistenti provvedimenti di espulsione o di arresto nei suoi confronti (che esistono solo nella sua indubbiamente fervida fantasia di scrittore) e sostenitore fideistico di teorie investigative ormai definitivamente sconfessate a livello giudiziario e calunniose per innocenti, hanno cercato di legare strumentalmente questo delitto di Perugia a vicende criminali efferate e crudeli, quanto inquietanti, inquinate e sordide, accadute non lontano da qui e le ramificazioni locali di tali vicende.
google:
Quote:
But it is not enough yet: supported by some well-known mystery writer, totally devoid of legal culture, especially of foreign legal systems and terrified of non-existent expulsion or arrest orders against him (which exist only in his undoubtedly fervent imagination as a writer) and fideistic supporter of theories investigations now definitively disavowed to the judiciary level and slanderous for the innocent, have tried to instrumentally link this crime of Perugia to brutal and cruel, as disturbing, polluted and sordid, happenings not far from here and the local ramifications of such events.
Well, I guess we know who and what he's talking about, don't we?

Just for the record: An OCR of the first few pages of this document and a google translation are available in the "first trial transcript translations?" thread on IA. It's an interesting thing to read...
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Old 12th August 2019, 02:47 PM   #1778
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Originally Posted by Bill Williams View Post
It actually is not many people at all, but there are people out there in Italy who still regard Mignini as a victim of the Narducci investigation (a so-called victimization which they see as extending into Mignini's persecution of AK and RS and a lot of people who supported them) - these people are completely blind to the well-earned abuse of office charges he ran into, even if he "beat the rap" on what I regard as a (convenient) technicality. Mignini gave it the old college try, to extend that persecution to Douglas Preston. It seems that even his judicial enemies in Italy did not want to take it as far as sending him to prison. A PM in prison!?

Of course there are the remaining English-language guilter-nutters congregated around the sole remaining on-line presence of Mignini-fans: TJMK. Look at how Vixen responds to criticism of Mignini. The man can do know wrong.
Vixen feels that all prosecutors are honest, decent and ethical and corrupt prosecutors don't exist. Because of this Vixen will always defend prosecutors regardless of their record.
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Old 12th August 2019, 05:43 PM   #1779
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Originally Posted by Methos View Post
It's interesting that Dottore Mignini is singing this song since 2008. The following quote is from his closing arguments in front of judge Micheli (pages 2 and 3):


google:

Quote:
But it is not enough yet: supported by some well-known mystery writer, totally devoid of legal culture, especially of foreign legal systems and terrified of non-existent expulsion or arrest orders against him (which exist only in his Quote:
But it is not enough yet: supported by some well-known mystery writer, totally devoid of legal culture, especially of foreign legal systems and terrified of non-existent expulsion or arrest orders against him (which exist only in his undoubtedly fervent imagination as a writer) and fideistic supporter of theories investigations now definitively disavowed to the judiciary level and slanderous for the innocent, have tried to instrumentally link this crime of Perugia to brutal and cruel, as disturbing, polluted and sordid, happenings not far from here and the local ramifications of such events. as a writer) and fideistic supporter of theories investigations now definitively disavowed to the judiciary level and slanderous for the innocent, have tried to instrumentally link this crime of Perugia to brutal and cruel, as disturbing, polluted and sordid, happenings not far from here and the local ramifications of such events.
Well, I guess we know who and what he's talking about, don't we?
Wow. My irony meter just exploded.

If anyone had an "undoubtedly fervent imagination" it was Mignini!
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Old 12th August 2019, 07:38 PM   #1780
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
It's really rather easy to understand the PGP vision of Mignini: he was the man trying heroically to get two killers rightly convicted but couldn't overcome the powerful dark forces of the mafia, Freemasons, and the US government conspiring to 'get them off'. Conti, Vecchiotti, defense experts, and even judges were 'bent' and in bed with the defense.
Let's see if the dark forces can reconvene to free the two alleged American cop killers in Italy. Both from highly privileged families in the richest area of the country. Will we see future US presidents declaring "this is an outrageous miscarriage of justice" or State Department sources stating "there 'is not any way' the U.S. will arrest them, nor will it have them declared a fugitive."? Only time will tell...
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:50 AM   #1781
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Um, no. Mignini was a prosecutor in the Hellmann appeal trial in Perugia (not Florence). NEXT!
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:56 AM   #1782
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Welshman View Post
Vixen feels that all prosecutors are honest, decent and ethical and corrupt prosecutors don't exist. Because of this Vixen will always defend prosecutors regardless of their record.
I bet you are the type of person who, if given a parking ticket, blames the traffic warden.


I was just parking here in this space after driving around the block several times. I had no choice but to nip in. Sure, there's a sign that says, 'No Parking' but hey everybody else is doing it. Bloody bastard.


Not much different from:

'Hey I was just acting out my written fantasies of giving a chick a razor to her left jaw. So we have this stupid guy who isn't impressed by my wiggling my hips at him - always worked with the drug dealers and the Italian creep with the Audi - doesn't he know I'm an American brat and I'll do whatever I like. So **** off, Mignini. Frickin' bastard.'
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:57 AM   #1783
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Originally Posted by bagels View Post
Let's see if the dark forces can reconvene to free the two alleged American cop killers in Italy. Both from highly privileged families in the richest area of the country. Will we see future US presidents declaring "this is an outrageous miscarriage of justice" or State Department sources stating "there 'is not any way' the U.S. will arrest them, nor will it have them declared a fugitive."? Only time will tell...
We already have the US press making martyrs out of the two diddums.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:21 AM   #1784
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.


"Brutally expunged" LMAO

Have you thought about applying that breathless phraseology to..... let's see.....

MASSEI?
CRINI?
NENCINI?

Cos if you haven't, I've got news for you
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:47 AM   #1785
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
"Brutally expunged" LMAO

Have you thought about applying that breathless phraseology to..... let's see.....

MASSEI?
CRINI?
NENCINI?

Cos if you haven't, I've got news for you

(I meant Chieffi obv, not Crini)
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:09 AM   #1786
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
In other words, you were wrong and rather than admit it, you come up with this dreadful gibberish.
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:50 AM   #1787
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
You have repeated this myth dozens of times. You are immune to the dozens of rebuttals which have been provided.

When a judge concludes what you approve of, you observe their objectivity and commitment to the fact(oid)s. You accuse the rest of us of disrespecting Italian institutions.

When judges conclude what you disapprove of, you accuse those members of those Institutions of being "bent", fraudulent, Masonic influenced, Mafia-corrupt..... where they are then forced into retirement on the basis of ONE verdict they arrived at (which if true speaks of judicial interference with the independence of the court, which means you're conceding that YOUR judges are corrupt).

This analysis provided so that even you can see why no one takes you seriously.

Back to lurking.
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Old 13th August 2019, 07:59 AM   #1788
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We already have the US press making martyrs out of the two diddums.
Would you care to cite evidence to support such a claim. I've been following the story via US media reports and I've seen no such thing. At most, an issue has been made of Natale Hjorth being blindfolded, which the police have said was an illegal act, but very little has been said about it.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:11 AM   #1789
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Vixen
We already have the US press making martyrs out of the two diddums.
Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
Would you care to cite evidence to support such a claim. I've been following the story via US media reports and I've seen no such thing. At most, an issue has been made of Natale Hjorth being blindfolded, which the police have said was an illegal act, but very little has been said about it.
Vixen doesn't contribute to threads because she has evidence. She contributes because she wants to chuck weasel words into a conversation, weasel words like "diddums".

Back to lurking.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:00 AM   #1790
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Bill, Bill, Bill...don't you know that making up scenarios that never happened is what the prosecution and the PGP (and one in particular with a very vivid imagination), do?
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I bet you are the type of person who, if given a parking ticket, blames the traffic warden.


I was just parking here in this space after driving around the block several times. I had no choice but to nip in. Sure, there's a sign that says, 'No Parking' but hey everybody else is doing it. Bloody bastard.


Not much different from:

'Hey I was just acting out my written fantasies of giving a chick a razor to her left jaw. So we have this stupid guy who isn't impressed by my wiggling my hips at him - always worked with the drug dealers and the Italian creep with the Audi - doesn't he know I'm an American brat and I'll do whatever I like. So **** off, Mignini. Frickin' bastard.'
Now what was it we were saying upthread about making up scenarios and fervent imagination?

Bet you are the type of person who, despite being given concrete evidence you are wrong, just doubles and triples down instead of admitting you were wrong.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 13th August 2019 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:12 AM   #1791
Stacyhs
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We already have the US press making martyrs out of the two diddums.
What US press are you looking at? It's certainly not the press I'm seeing here.
As previously stated, the only criticism of the case so far has been one of the suspects being ILLEGALLY blindfolded, an act the police themselves have condemned. Nowhere has there been any attempt to make "martyrs" of the two.

You have already been asked to provide evidence of your claim which should be easy if it exists. That you have not, and will not, speaks volumes. This is just another classic example of you making unfounded and false claims based on nothing.
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:20 AM   #1792
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Hellmann doesn't count. He was brutally expunged and then booted into 'retirement'.
Hellmann counts as much as the overturned Massei and Nencini decisions. In fact, Cassation ended up agreeing with Hellmann's verdict of acquittal while stating that Massei and Nencini should never have convicted in the first place based on the evidence. Wow. That must have stung!

As for Hellmann being "booted into 'retirement', you have (unsurprisingly) misrepresented the facts. No one 'booted' Hellmann. He chose to retire because some of his fellow judiciary behaved like snot nosed babies because they didn't like his verdict. A verdict, may I remind you, that was later proved correct by the Supreme Court of Italy. I'd say Hellmann got the last laugh on that one.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 13th August 2019 at 11:30 AM.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:11 PM   #1793
Bill Williams
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Bet you are the type of person who, despite being given concrete evidence you are wrong, just doubles and triples down instead of admitting you were wrong.
But on the bright side, Vixen did get to use the word "diddums" in a sentence. "Diddums" is, apparently, the key to understanding how the Italian criminal system works.

BTL.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:51 PM   #1794
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Hellmann counts as much as the overturned Massei and Nencini decisions. In fact, Cassation ended up agreeing with Hellmann's verdict of acquittal while stating that Massei and Nencini should never have convicted in the first place based on the evidence. Wow. That must have stung!

As for Hellmann being "booted into 'retirement', you have (unsurprisingly) misrepresented the facts. No one 'booted' Hellmann. He chose to retire because some of his fellow judiciary behaved like snot nosed babies because they didn't like his verdict. A verdict, may I remind you, that was later proved correct by the Supreme Court of Italy. I'd say Hellmann got the last laugh on that one.


Yeah... Vixen's selective memory curiously always manages to forget the only two judicial decisions in this case which actually count as of August 2019: The Marasca Supreme Court verdict in respect of Knox's/Sollecito's murder-related charges, and the ECHR adjudication in respect of Knox's criminal slander "conviction". Funny, that

Plus, as you point out above, if one goes through the court verdicts which were overturned or quashed in this case, in fact the ONLY one which could be said to have ongoing resonance and relevance is Hellmann. His court can also take the credit for ordering an independent-expert review of the forensic evidence in this case - a review which (correctly) gave an utterly damning verdict on the work of "world class" Stefanoni and pretty much everyone else involved in the collection, processing, transportation and analysis of forensic material.

The Conti/Vecchiotti Report still contributes to the canon of evidence in this case (Vixen also "forgets" that it's only the verdicts and the courts' reasoning behind those verdicts which were struck out - the evidence/testimony itself from each of those trials still stands). And that report clearly must have (correctly, again) played its part in the reasoning and verdict of the Marasca SC panel.

In fact, if any verdicts in this sorry trials process can be said to have been "brutally expunged", it's those of the Massei and Nencini courts. Both of those trials were outrageously unlawful in a whole smorgasbord of ways; they were both a disgrace, and the Marasca SC verdict correctly called them out appropriately. Furthermore, the failure of both those courts to properly question the circumstances of Knox's "criminal slander" of Lumumba, and the shocking decision by Massei to allow that charge to be tried alongside the murder-related charges, now look hideous in the light of the ECHR adjudication.

So if any judges should hang their heads in shame over this botched trial process, it's most definitely Massei and Nencini. And, for that matter, Chieffi. Not Hellmann, by any means (save for his role in the Knox criminal slander "conviction").
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Old 13th August 2019, 05:58 PM   #1795
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Quote:
Vixen also "forgets" that it's only the verdicts and the courts' reasoning behind those verdicts which were struck out - the evidence/testimony itself from each of those trials still stands
(LJ #1794)

"Forgets" much in the same way that Stefanoni "forgot" to mention all the negative TMB tests! But Stefanoni didn't 'forget' to always refer to them as 'luminol revealed' samples. Gee...I wonder why that was? It's rather like referring to the 'bloody knife' at a murder trial that tested negative for the victim's blood/DNA but positive for deer blood and forgetting to mention that piece of info.
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:15 PM   #1796
Numbers
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yeah... Vixen's selective memory curiously always manages to forget the only two judicial decisions in this case which actually count as of August 2019: The Marasca Supreme Court verdict in respect of Knox's/Sollecito's murder-related charges, and the ECHR adjudication in respect of Knox's criminal slander "conviction". Funny, that

Plus, as you point out above, if one goes through the court verdicts which were overturned or quashed in this case, in fact the ONLY one which could be said to have ongoing resonance and relevance is Hellmann. His court can also take the credit for ordering an independent-expert review of the forensic evidence in this case - a review which (correctly) gave an utterly damning verdict on the work of "world class" Stefanoni and pretty much everyone else involved in the collection, processing, transportation and analysis of forensic material.

The Conti/Vecchiotti Report still contributes to the canon of evidence in this case (Vixen also "forgets" that it's only the verdicts and the courts' reasoning behind those verdicts which were struck out - the evidence/testimony itself from each of those trials still stands). And that report clearly must have (correctly, again) played its part in the reasoning and verdict of the Marasca SC panel.

In fact, if any verdicts in this sorry trials process can be said to have been "brutally expunged", it's those of the Massei and Nencini courts. Both of those trials were outrageously unlawful in a whole smorgasbord of ways; they were both a disgrace, and the Marasca SC verdict correctly called them out appropriately. Furthermore, the failure of both those courts to properly question the circumstances of Knox's "criminal slander" of Lumumba, and the shocking decision by Massei to allow that charge to be tried alongside the murder-related charges, now look hideous in the light of the ECHR adjudication.

So if any judges should hang their heads in shame over this botched trial process, it's most definitely Massei and Nencini. And, for that matter, Chieffi. Not Hellmann, by any means (save for his role in the Knox criminal slander "conviction").
I am going to agree with you but with some slight clarifications to expand on the significance of legal records, including that of overturned or reversed verdicts and motivation reports, for Council of Europe states such as Italy.

1. The Marasca CSC Panel verdict and motivation report and the ECHR judgment in Knox v. Italy are the only legally binding court judgments in this case. Italy is obligated, under its treaty of membership in the Council of Europe, to adhere to the ECHR judgment Knox v. Italy and to interpret any previous judgment, including that of the Marasca CSC Panel, to conform to the ECHR judgment in Knox v. Italy.

2. While verdicts and motivation reports that are overturned or reversed lose their operative effects, they are not "expunged"*. They are preserved in the legal record. In fact, such verdicts and motivation reports, as well as the trial record of testimony and judicial actions, may include or be in themselves evidence that the ECHR considers in evaluating an alleged violation of an applicant's rights. For example, in Knox v. Italy, the ECHR considered the denial by the Massei court of the request by Knox's lawyer to have her statement regarding mistreatment during the Nov. 5/6 interrogation sent to a prosecutor as one element of the evidence of Italy's repeated violation of Convention Article 3, procedural limb.
_____

*Expunge {definition}

To destroy; blot out; obliterate; erase; efface designedly; strike out wholly. The act of physically destroying information—including criminal records—in files, computers, or other depositories.


Source: https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/expunge

Overturned or reversed verdicts and motivation reports remain as physical records, so they are not "expunged".
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Old 13th August 2019, 06:23 PM   #1797
Stacyhs
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Good points, Numbers. Vixen's armchair lawyer claim that Hellmann was "brutally expunged" is yet another factoid pulled from the black hole from which most of her 'facts' originate.
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Old 13th August 2019, 08:40 PM   #1798
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Good points, Numbers. Vixen's armchair lawyer claim that Hellmann was "brutally expunged" is yet another factoid pulled from the black hole from which most of her 'facts' originate.
There was also the effort to call the rock thrown through the window of the cottage a "boulder", an attempt to use a geological definition based on the diameter of a rock, apparently in an attempt to make the thrown rock seem impossibly big to be thrown.

Here's some information on the geological definition of "boulder":

"In geology, a boulder is a rock fragment with size greater than 25.6 centimetres (10.1 in) in diameter.* Smaller pieces are called cobbles and pebbles. While a boulder may be small enough to move or roll manually, others are extremely massive. In common usage, a boulder is too large for a person to move. Smaller boulders are usually just called rocks or stones. ...."

*Neuendorf, K.K.E.; Mehl, Jr., J.P.; Jackson, J.A. (editors) (2005). Glossary of Geology (5th edition). Alexandria, Virginia: American Geological Institute. p. 79. ISBN 978-0922152896

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boulder

Here are some other definitions of boulder:

"boulder (plural boulders)

1. A large mass of stone detached from the surrounding land.
2. (geology) A particle greater than 256 mm in diameter, following the Wentworth scale
3. A large marble, in children's games. "

Source: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/boulder
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Old 13th August 2019, 11:52 PM   #1799
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Ah, yes...I remember the "boulder" exchanges. So very, very silly because obviously the rock..er boulder... WAS thrown whether it was though the window from the outside or the inside. So disingenuous.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:03 AM   #1800
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ah, yes...I remember the "boulder" exchanges. So very, very silly because obviously the rock..er boulder... WAS thrown whether it was though the window from the outside or the inside. So disingenuous.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that Vixen only threw out the Hellmann comment as a diversion from the fact that she said Mignini was not involved in any of the appeal trials, which was incorrect. Vixen hasn't learned how to say "oops, I was wrong" and thus the constant stream of diversions.

If we were all on a bus taking a three day cross-country trip, listing all of Vixen's lies, errors, distortions and deliberate deceptions might be a fun game to pass the time, but as a practical use for this board I'm thinking not so much.
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