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Old 21st July 2019, 05:18 PM   #241
Baylor
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The terrorist attack against an ICE detention center is another example of stochastic terrorism perpetrated by the Mainstream Media. People are falling for the "concentration camps/kids locked in cages" lies. It's no wonder lonely and delusional people with grandiose visions of "fighting nazis" are acting on these fantasies.
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:07 PM   #242
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The terrorist attack against an ICE detention center...
A link to a news site (which you consider fair and accurate) would be helpful here.
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Old 21st July 2019, 07:58 PM   #243
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You haven't heard about this???????!!!!

You being serious?
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Old 21st July 2019, 08:46 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You haven't heard about this???????!!!!

You being serious?
we have.
But how is it terrorism? Is the goal to instill fear and terror?

No. It is to sabotage a hated policy.

Just because someone leaning to the left is doing it or because federal property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:04 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
A fine example of "Stochastic Terrorism" in action:
https://twitter.com/NOLAnews/status/1152611758948982784

https://buff.ly/2YXyUNj

And they're already trying to play it off as a joke; in good stochastic terrorism fashion, plausible deniability is being invoked. From the second link:

Quote:
Even if this is not actually advocating somebody shoot someone, it’s totally inappropriate for a law enforcement officer to make this poor attempt at humor.

Emphasis added.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
we have.
But how is it terrorism? Is the goal to instill fear and terror?

No. It is to sabotage a hated policy.

Just because someone leaning to the left is doing it or because federal property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism.

Particularly as he targeted vehicles and detention buildings, not people or critical infrastructure.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:15 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And they're already trying to play it off as a joke; in good stochastic terrorism fashion, plausible deniability is being invoked. From the second link:
the cop was reacting to an article about AOC labeled as satire - so the joke was literally on him.
Claiming to be joking whilst not getting the joke is not very credible.
The fact that he was unable to recognize the satire is very problematic for a police officers, even without the subsequent condoning of shooting a politician.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 09:09 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
The terrorist attack against an ICE detention center is another example of stochastic terrorism perpetrated by the Mainstream Media. People are falling for the "concentration camps/kids locked in cages" lies. It's no wonder lonely and delusional people with grandiose visions of "fighting nazis" are acting on these fantasies.
Liberals: AmeriKKKa is the single most evil nation to ever exist and our founders were monsters on par with Oskar Dirlewanger and Klaus Barbie! AmeriKKKa was is and always will be **** and needs to BURN TO THE GROUND FOR BEING AN ONGOING HOLOKKKAU$T!"

Also Liberals: We Truly Love America and just want it to be better, like Venezuela Europe. ICE goes against America's ideals.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 10:34 AM   #248
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And yet, it isn't Liberals who go to weekly rallies and chant racist slurs....
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Old 22nd July 2019, 04:06 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
...Particularly as he targeted vehicles and detention buildings, not people or critical infrastructure.
He also targeted a propane storage tank, which obviously could have killed a lot of people.

Quote:
the suspect was also attempting to ignite a large propane tank outside the facility
link
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Old 22nd July 2019, 05:31 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
He also targeted a propane storage tank, which obviously could have killed a lot of people.


link

No one accused the guy of being a mad genius. Mad, certainly, but he was clearly a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 10:07 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
No one accused the guy of being a mad genius. Mad, certainly, but he was clearly a few fries short of a Happy Meal.
Also, "attempting" to ignite a propane tank can mean a lot of different things. From other articles I've seen, he was mostly just making a show of trying to cause property damage, and never even fired the rifle he took with him. As far as I can recall, no stories mention him actually causing any damage to anything at the facility, just "attempting" it. That article mentions having flares on his person, which reminds me of the scene in Tommy Boy where Chris Farley mocks robbing a bank with road flares made to resemble explosives. Several friends/neighbors have said that they thought he was probably trying to commit suicide. Because I haven't seen any news report saying real damage was caused, for all I know, that attempt might have been anything from setting off a road flare near a tank, to mocking trying to light it on fire somehow, to actually setting off real explosives near a tank. It's incredibly ambiguous and open to the interpretation of whoever is making that statement publicly.

This guy was 69 years old, the people close to him thought he was trying to die, and he doesn't seem to have even come close to causing any real damage, according to reports I've seen. Obviously, I don't think it's great he was committing a violent act (nor do I approve of it in any way), and he was clearly nuts, but it really seems like this was more suicide by cop than anything else, judging by the news articles I've read.

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Old 23rd July 2019, 10:00 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Also, "attempting" to ignite a propane tank can mean a lot of different things.
One thing it means is that the person didn't prioritize preventing death/injury for innocents.

Quote:
From other articles I've seen, he was mostly just making a show of trying to cause property damage, and never even fired the rifle he took with him.
The guy who plotted to assassinate Trump's enemies hadn't taken action when he was apprehended. I don't think we should be so blase about giving a pass to people just because they're on the side of "the good guys".
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Old 23rd July 2019, 10:31 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
One thing it means is that the person didn't prioritize preventing death/injury for innocents.

The guy who plotted to assassinate Trump's enemies hadn't taken action when he was apprehended. I don't think we should be so blase about giving a pass to people just because they're on the side of "the good guys".
I'm not being blase about anything, I clearly said that I don't approve of the guy's violent actions and think he was a nutter. But also think it's important to point out that this really doesn't seem to have been some kind of Oklahoma City-ish coordinated terrorist attack like right-wing media sources (and some people on this forum) have been portraying it. I see a difference between that kind of thing and an old man committing suicide by cop, regardless of the politics behind it. Maybe you don't, and that's a perfectly valid opinion to take, too. I just don't like how often I've seen the story be misrepresented because some people are glad that someone on the left finally did something violent, too.

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Old 30th July 2019, 01:30 PM   #254
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Welp, yet another one. The Gilroy shooter this week was another young man radicalized through the fascist white supremacist pipeline.

Instagram account connected to Gilroy shooter pushed staple of white supremacist internet forums
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Old 31st July 2019, 11:57 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Welp, yet another one. The Gilroy shooter this week was another young man radicalized through the fascist white supremacist pipeline.

Instagram account connected to Gilroy shooter pushed staple of white supremacist internet forums
But how is this terrorism?
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Old 1st August 2019, 09:53 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But how is this terrorism?
Well, it was a violent act perpetrated by someone with radical political beliefs who, before shooting up a crowd of people, made posts on social media identifying the groups of people he didn't like (and his apparent dissatifaction with how he saw them changing the area) and praising/recommending a book used by white nationalists as a manifesto. That fits the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism pretty much exactly, and is also a perfect example of stochastic terrorism. Why do you think it doesn't count as terrorism?

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Old 1st August 2019, 10:25 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, it was a violent act perpetrated by someone with radical political beliefs who, before shooting up a crowd of people, made posts on social media identifying the groups of people he didn't like (and his apparent dissatifaction with how he saw them changing the area) and praising/recommending a book used by white nationalists as a manifesto. That fits the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism pretty much exactly, and is also a perfect example of stochastic terrorism. Why do you think it doesn't count as terrorism?
Because the guy was white so it is mental illness.
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Old 1st August 2019, 04:22 PM   #258
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Looks like the FBI is starting to recognize and target the big links in the stochastic terrorism radicalization pipeline.

Exclusive: FBI document warns conspiracy theories are a new domestic terrorism threat

The article doesn't use that exact terminology, but their quote from the FBI bulletin's description of the problem is essentially the same:

Quote:
“The FBI assesses these conspiracy theories very likely will emerge, spread, and evolve in the modern information marketplace, occasionally driving both groups and individual extremists to carry out criminal or violent acts,” the document states. It also goes on to say the FBI believes conspiracy theory-driven extremists are likely to increase during the 2020 presidential election cycle.
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Old 3rd August 2019, 06:16 PM   #259
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And the latest big shooting also fits right into the pattern.

El Paso Shooting Suspect May Have Authored Manifesto Containing White Nationalist Talking Points

Excerpt:
Quote:
NBC News identified the suspect as Patrick Crusius of Allen, Texas, citing unspecified police sources.

A Twitter account bearing the suspect’s name contains liked tweets that include a “BuildTheWall” hashtag, a photo using guns to spell out “Trump,” and posts from Paul Joseph Watson, a far-right Youtuber who works with Alex Jones at InfoWars.

Authorities are examining a four-page document that several media outlets are calling a manifesto. Authorities are trying to determine the document’s authenticity and whether there are ties to the suspect.

The document mentions the suspect in the Christchurch, New Zealand mass shooting at two mosques that left 51 people dead in March. The suspect in that shooting has pleaded not guilty.

The manifesto allegedly linked to the El Paso shooting suspect contains white nationalist talking points on “ethnic displacement" and "race mixing" and refers to immigrants to the United States as "invaders."
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Old 4th August 2019, 11:14 PM   #260
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The fact so many of the "lonewolf" white nationalist terrorist have a "manifesto" speaks to the political motivations of their attacks. No doubt this is white supremacy in its death throes... Unfortunately white supremacy mixed with assault weapons and a empowered ideology = mass murder.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:09 AM   #261
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This might fall under too little, too late, but:
The founder of 8chan, the anonymous online messaging board that's a haven for extremist content, calls for the site to be shut down
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:25 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Quote:
Fredrick Brennan, a software developer who founded the site in 2013 but cut ties with it in December, told the Washington Post on Sunday that the site is a "receptive audience for domestic terrorists."

"Once again, a terrorist used 8chan to spread his message as he knew people would save it and spread it," Brennan told the Post. "The board is a receptive audience for domestic terrorists."

He added that the site's owners should "do the world a favor and shut it off."
Worth pointing out that "software developer Fredrick Brennan founded 8chan in 2013" after the owner of 4chan banned child pornography-sharing and pedophilia advocacy on that site. 8chan was first populated by displaced pedophiles and their supporters. Brennan has justified allowing the linking of child porn on 8chan by characterizing it as the inevitable cost of "truly" supporting free speech.
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Old 5th August 2019, 02:58 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Juniversal View Post
The fact so many of the "lonewolf" white nationalist terrorist have a "manifesto" speaks to the political motivations of their attacks. No doubt this is white supremacy in its death throes... Unfortunately white supremacy mixed with assault weapons and a empowered ideology = mass murder.
This seems radically optimistic, I mean they won the white house how can this be seen as their death throes? It seems more like resurgent power.
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:16 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
But how is this terrorism?
How is it not?
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:44 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post

It's something, at least. The news on NPR this morning was that 8chan's host service pulled the plug and they are officially offline. One big contributor to the radicalization pipeline taken down. Hopefully, more hosts will follow suit and remove hate sites from their services; but I'm not holding my breath.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This seems radically optimistic, I mean they won the white house how can this be seen as their death throes? It seems more like resurgent power.

Have to agree with that. It's always been there, just under the surface, now it's been given tacit approval from the highest offices in the land. Unless something is done to address the problem more stringently, it's just going to keep growing and keep murdering.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:25 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
Well, it was a violent act perpetrated by someone with radical political beliefs who, before shooting up a crowd of people, made posts on social media identifying the groups of people he didn't like (and his apparent dissatifaction with how he saw them changing the area) and praising/recommending a book used by white nationalists as a manifesto. That fits the FBI's definition of domestic terrorism pretty much exactly, and is also a perfect example of stochastic terrorism. Why do you think it doesn't count as terrorism?
Was the goal to instill fear and terror?

No. It wasn't even intended to sabotage a hated policy.

Just because someone leaning to the right is doing it or because public property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:37 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Was the goal to instill fear and terror?

No. It wasn't even intended to sabotage a hated policy.

Just because someone leaning to the right is doing it or because public property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism.
They killed lots of people to further an ideology.

But I suppose that I should be pleased that this time you actually accept that the victims are genuine.
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Old 5th August 2019, 01:42 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Was the goal to instill fear and terror?

No.
Why do you think it wasn't? That's why the shooter singled out the people he didn't like and promoted the ideology he believes in before launching a violent, public attack. He was furthering his ideology (again, the attack fits the definition of domestic terrorism exactly, something you ignored). The goal is to tell the group he has a problem with "I don't like you, and here's a whole movement that wants to hurt you." To make that group afraid. Violence carried out as a threat is (as far as I know) pretty basic to white supremacist terrorism, going all the way back to the KKK. Do you think the shooter had a different motive?

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Old 5th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Was the goal to instill fear and terror?

No. It wasn't even intended to sabotage a hated policy.

Just because someone leaning to the right is doing it or because public property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism.
Is that an editorial "no" or an imperial one? I don't think you're in a position to judge so certainly what the shooter's goals were. Why do you think that shooting up a public place after naming the hated group you're intending to murder would not instill fear and terror? Because he was too successful in his primary goal to kill them outright? Besides, public property was not targeted, people using it were targeted.
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:30 PM   #270
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Was the goal to instill fear and terror?
Instilling fear and terror in the target class is one of the two main goals of every mass shooting.
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:37 PM   #271
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The motives in the Dayton shootings seem murky, but the El Paso shooting motivation seems pretty damn clear. A act of violent bigotry if ever there was one.
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Old 5th August 2019, 04:50 PM   #272
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"Just because someone leaning to the right is doing it or because public property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism."

Hmm.... how about one slight change?

"Just because someone leaning to the left is doing it or because public property is targeted doesn't make it terrorism."

Great! Now antifa is officially off the hook! Glad we could clear that up!
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Old 5th August 2019, 06:56 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
How is it not?
In the same way the attack on the ICE facility wasn't terrorism.
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Old 5th August 2019, 09:42 PM   #274
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CNN is reporting the Dayton shooter to be a leftist and antifa
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/co...ile/index.html
It seems his motivation, or what little we know about it, is probably more personal than political unlinke the El Paso shooter that published a manifesto but we shouldn't rule out the effect of Stochastic Terrorism on the shooter as antifa provides normalization and rationalization for political violence.
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Old 5th August 2019, 09:55 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by portlandatheist View Post
CNN is reporting the Dayton shooter to be a leftist and antifa
https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/05/us/co...ile/index.html
It seems his motivation, or what little we know about it, is probably more personal than political unlinke the El Paso shooter that published a manifesto but we shouldn't rule out the effect of Stochastic Terrorism on the shooter as antifa provides normalization and rationalization for political violence.
I haven't seen anything actually tying the Dayton shooter to antifa in a concrete way; sure, his Twitter feeds seems to indicate he leaned to the left, but Tweets from some of his associates also seem to balk at the idea he actually believed in leftist or antifa ideals due to his known misogyny, and I'm not aware of him being involved in any antifa activism. Yesterday, I posted in the mass shooting thread that his background reminded me a lot of an incel rampage killer, and given what I've seen so far, that's still what he reminds me the most of. Either way, I'd agree that his motivation seemed more personal than political, which is why I really don't like seeing media outlets trying to label him as an antifa terrorist. There's no reason to use the Dayton shooting to advance a centrist or "antifa is dangerous, too" narrative. For the same reason, I seriously disagree with the efforts to label the El Paso shooter as an ecoterrorist. Whether or not the Dayton shooter identified with antifa as an ideology, he certainly doesn't seem to have carried out the attack to further any antifa goals or to publicize a leftist agenda.

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Old 5th August 2019, 10:34 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The motives in the Dayton shootings seem murky, but the El Paso shooting motivation seems pretty damn clear. A act of violent bigotry if ever there was one.
The Dayton shooting looks like the typical depressed narcissistic lashing out.
Columbine shooting, Virginia Tech massacre, etc.

As far as political views the guy was all over the place, outwardly progressive and at the same time involved in incel circles, which are often high misogynistic, but not particularly political and I don't think it's as relevant as his history of being bullied and sexual frustration.
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Old 5th August 2019, 11:34 PM   #277
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And that IS important. Alt-righters will insist it's a copout; but although the guy seemed to identify as a political leftist, the crucial difference between him and the El Paso shooter is that there's no manifesto saying "there's a problem and I'm going to fix it with my guns". It's claimed he supported anti-facists; but his shooting spree did not target fascists. His tweets complain about cops and Republican lawmakers not acting after school shootings; but his rampage didn't target police or Republican politicians, or even a generalized demographic that skews conservative. He was by all accounts a raging misogynist, but his actual attack did not focus on women.

For that matter, he tweeted criticism about guns being too prolific and readily available in America, but he also tweeted about how much he "loved guns". He tweeted complaints about school shootings and nothing being done. In fact it's reported that his last activities before his own shooting spree, were liking others' tweets condemning the El Paso massacre:

Quote:
In the hours before the Dayton shooting, the Twitter account "liked" several tweets about a shooting in El Paso, Texas, that left 22 dead, including one supporting gun control and others that called the El Paso shooting suspect a "terrorist," and a "white supremacist."
...and then that very same evening he commits a mass shooting of his own. Are we actually 100% that IS the same guy's Twitter account? Such contradictory behavior makes it impossible to know what he was really thinking.
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Old 6th August 2019, 03:37 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
The Dayton shooting looks like the typical depressed narcissistic lashing out.
Columbine shooting, Virginia Tech massacre, etc.

As far as political views the guy was all over the place, outwardly progressive and at the same time involved in incel circles, which are often high misogynistic, but not particularly political and I don't think it's as relevant as his history of being bullied and sexual frustration.
Was he bullied?

I've read reports that he was suspended twice, once for making a hit list and once for making a rape list. If you want to end up a pariah, I can't think of a better way than that. No wonder his peers avoided him like the plague.
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:00 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
In the same way the attack on the ICE facility wasn't terrorism.
I can certainly find a way to describe 9/11 in a way that doesn't make it terrorism. Here goes: did the attackers intend to cause fear? No, their goal was to hurt America's economy.
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Old 6th August 2019, 05:26 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I can certainly find a way to describe 9/11 in a way that doesn't make it terrorism. Here goes: did the attackers intend to cause fear? No, their goal was to hurt America's economy.
And if they had left portfolios to their families with Put options on US stocks, you might have a point.
But we do have statements that they had a political goal that they want to fulfill by fear - they didn't believe that destroying the World Trade Center would destroy the US military. Instead, they wanted to sap the will to fight.
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