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Old 25th July 2019, 02:25 AM   #41
Rolfe
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There have been single-sex toilets (and changing rooms where provided) in schools and elsewhere for well over 100 years. In Britain it's mandated in law that separate toilets for each sex should be provided for all pupils over the age of eight. (I'm not sure why that age cut-off but I don't believe there were any mixed-sex toilets for younger pupils in practice until very recently.) Pupils value them for many reasons including modesty, smell, the ability to retreat from the opposite sex and the provision of appropriate facilities.

Once you get to secondary school level the behaviour of adolescent boys becomes a real problem. These hormonally driven bundles of impulses are often very keen indeed to see bits of girls they're not usually in a position to see, and they also like humiliating and embarrassing girls. Standing outside the toilet stall door making lewd remarks and speculating about what the girl inside is doing is one charming ploy.

A particular problem is "period shaming". Boys speculating about whether a girl is on her period by the length of time she takes in the toilet. Girls having to do everything related to feminine hygiene (which can involve washing bloodstained underwear) inside the toilet stall - if there are even facilities for doing that - in many toilets, built for single-sex use, there are none. Alternatively, trying to sort out period disasters in the common hand-washing areas with boys looking on and providing a running commentary. And bear in mind these are girls just starting their periods, who are probably the most self-conscious mortals on the face of the planet. "Reduces bullying"? No, it clearly facilitates it.

On the other side there are the male facilities, generally equipped with urinals. I hear many adult men say they will absolutely no way use a urinal in a space that is open to women. (The women are at the same time saying there is no way they want to go into a space with urinals, but that doesn't help much since it's the possibility that someone will that's disturbing the men.) I don't know if teenage boys feel the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me at all, indeed it would be very surprising if some didn't.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/e...-dont-15839558

So what's this all about? Why the sudden rush to "reform" a system that's worked pretty well for over a century and which practically nobody was complaining about, without any consultation with the people affected, and latterly in the teeth of strong opposition from the people affected. Indeed in Britain these facilities actually break the law, but councils are still introducing it.

Somebody please explain why, because I'm not getting it.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:51 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I realise that. In a better world, they should have no reason to protest.
Exactly, if you can't force a bunch of teenage girls to see your junk against their will, then what freedoms do you even have?
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:52 AM   #43
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"Period disasters." Really?!
Maybe I should have spent school breaks spying on the girls' bathroom when I was that age since I would then apparently have known that school girls have "to do everything related to feminine hygiene (which can involve washing bloodstained underwear) inside the toilet stall." I thought that "bloodstained underwear" was washed at home along with all the other underwear - whatever kind of stains it may have.
Since you appear to know so much about this, you may also be able to tell me if they have tumble driers in the girls' bathrooms for after they've hand-washed their knickers in the sink. Or do they just put them back on again wet?!
There is so much I never even knew to ask about.
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Old 25th July 2019, 02:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There have been single-sex toilets (and changing rooms where provided) in schools and elsewhere for well over 100 years. In Britain it's mandated in law that separate toilets for each sex should be provided for all pupils over the age of eight. (I'm not sure why that age cut-off but I don't believe there were any mixed-sex toilets for younger pupils in practice until very recently.) Pupils value them for many reasons including modesty, smell, the ability to retreat from the opposite sex and the provision of appropriate facilities.

Once you get to secondary school level the behaviour of adolescent boys becomes a real problem. These hormonally driven bundles of impulses are often very keen indeed to see bits of girls they're not usually in a position to see, and they also like humiliating and embarrassing girls. Standing outside the toilet stall door making lewd remarks and speculating about what the girl inside is doing is one charming ploy.

A particular problem is "period shaming". Boys speculating about whether a girl is on her period by the length of time she takes in the toilet. Girls having to do everything related to feminine hygiene (which can involve washing bloodstained underwear) inside the toilet stall - if there are even facilities for doing that - in many toilets, built for single-sex use, there are none. Alternatively, trying to sort out period disasters in the common hand-washing areas with boys looking on and providing a running commentary. And bear in mind these are girls just starting their periods, who are probably the most self-conscious mortals on the face of the planet. "Reduces bullying"? No, it clearly facilitates it.

On the other side there are the male facilities, generally equipped with urinals. I hear many adult men say they will absolutely no way use a urinal in a space that is open to women. (The women are at the same time saying there is no way they want to go into a space with urinals, but that doesn't help much since it's the possibility that someone will that's disturbing the men.) I don't know if teenage boys feel the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me at all, indeed it would be very surprising if some didn't.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/e...-dont-15839558

So what's this all about? Why the sudden rush to "reform" a system that's worked pretty well for over a century and which practically nobody was complaining about, without any consultation with the people affected, and latterly in the teeth of strong opposition from the people affected. Indeed in Britain these facilities actually break the law, but councils are still introducing it.

Somebody please explain why, because I'm not getting it.
Because the "practically nobody" that were complaining are finally being listened to, and we are coming to realize that the system isn't as perfect as we thought it was when we didn't listen to the "practically nobody".
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
I don't blame them. Having to see male private prats is not something a young girl should have to experience.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/t...WlzsZ-E9gFZT8g
I don't know what kind of restrooms you have over there but we usually don't see genitals in there.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:46 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
If you go to google news and type in Council Bluffs transgender, you'll see the same news story from several sources, mainstream, right wing, and otherwise. The mainstream ones obviously won't have the editorializing that was found in the right wing source, but the basics are there, and the quotes are word for word consistent
Then one has to ask why, if there were far less biased sources of news, they chose to share this particular website with its obviously questionable content.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:49 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"Period disasters." Really?!
Maybe I should have spent school breaks spying on the girls' bathroom when I was that age since I would then apparently have known that school girls have "to do everything related to feminine hygiene (which can involve washing bloodstained underwear) inside the toilet stall." I thought that "bloodstained underwear" was washed at home along with all the other underwear - whatever kind of stains it may have.
Since you appear to know so much about this, you may also be able to tell me if they have tumble driers in the girls' bathrooms for after they've hand-washed their knickers in the sink. Or do they just put them back on again wet?!
There is so much I never even knew to ask about.

Normally speaking there are no washbasins in toilet stalls and these things happen in the communal handwashing area. It's not a routine thing, it's a coping-with-an-emergency thing that happens occasionally. You dont wash the entire garment, you try just to wash the stained part. Then you roll it in a towel or something like that to get as much moisture out as possible. Hot-air hand driers can be very useful too.

Girls find doing this embarrassing even in front of other girls. Some carry spare underwear routinely. But accidents happen.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:51 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Myles View Post
I take your question.
Not quite as searing as when Mueller used it.
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Old 25th July 2019, 04:52 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Because the "practically nobody" that were complaining are finally being listened to, and we are coming to realize that the system isn't as perfect as we thought it was when we didn't listen to the "practically nobody".

What were the compelling reasons given by the "practically nobody" that justify a complete upheaval for everybody which is very much disliked by the vast majority? Is it really the case that these reasons (a) trump the comfort and indeed safety of half the population, and (b) couldn't be addressed with some other solution?
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:02 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
There have been single-sex toilets (and changing rooms where provided) in schools and elsewhere for well over 100 years. In Britain it's mandated in law that separate toilets for each sex should be provided for all pupils over the age of eight. (I'm not sure why that age cut-off but I don't believe there were any mixed-sex toilets for younger pupils in practice until very recently.) Pupils value them for many reasons including modesty, smell, the ability to retreat from the opposite sex and the provision of appropriate facilities.

Once you get to secondary school level the behaviour of adolescent boys becomes a real problem. These hormonally driven bundles of impulses are often very keen indeed to see bits of girls they're not usually in a position to see, and they also like humiliating and embarrassing girls. Standing outside the toilet stall door making lewd remarks and speculating about what the girl inside is doing is one charming ploy.

A particular problem is "period shaming". Boys speculating about whether a girl is on her period by the length of time she takes in the toilet. Girls having to do everything related to feminine hygiene (which can involve washing bloodstained underwear) inside the toilet stall - if there are even facilities for doing that - in many toilets, built for single-sex use, there are none. Alternatively, trying to sort out period disasters in the common hand-washing areas with boys looking on and providing a running commentary. And bear in mind these are girls just starting their periods, who are probably the most self-conscious mortals on the face of the planet. "Reduces bullying"? No, it clearly facilitates it.

On the other side there are the male facilities, generally equipped with urinals. I hear many adult men say they will absolutely no way use a urinal in a space that is open to women. (The women are at the same time saying there is no way they want to go into a space with urinals, but that doesn't help much since it's the possibility that someone will that's disturbing the men.) I don't know if teenage boys feel the same way, but it wouldn't surprise me at all, indeed it would be very surprising if some didn't.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/e...-dont-15839558

So what's this all about? Why the sudden rush to "reform" a system that's worked pretty well for over a century and which practically nobody was complaining about, without any consultation with the people affected, and latterly in the teeth of strong opposition from the people affected. Indeed in Britain these facilities actually break the law, but councils are still introducing it.

Somebody please explain why, because I'm not getting it.
It's a relentless assault on nearly every civilizational institution by transgender activists.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:21 AM   #51
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I just heard another woman pointing out something else. Menstrual cups are becoming very popular and many women and girls find them an improvement on pads or tampons. They're re-usable so more environmentally friendly, and the don't have to be discarded in bins in the ladies rooms (which is a bit gross, because men with a tampon fetish are known to trawl these bins for used products and they are being facilitated by the current climate in which it's "transphobic" to challenge any man in a women's facility).

However, these have to be rinsed and washed in a washbasin every time. Most public toilets, as I noted, don't have washbasins inside the stalls, where there is barely room to turn round, and the handbasins have to be used. Women are objecting strenuously to being forced to do this with a man washing his hands in the next basin.

Similarly schoolgirls, whose mothers may suggest they start off with a menstrual cup because they're very suitable for active teenagers, are absolutely mortified at the idea of having to rinse these out in handwashing areas where schoolboys have access.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:24 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I just heard another woman pointing out something else. Menstrual cups are becoming very popular and many women and girls find them an improvement on pads or tampons. They're re-usable so more environmentally friendly, and the don't have to be discarded in bins in the ladies rooms (which is a bit gross, because men with a tampon fetish are known to trawl these bins for used products and they are being facilitated by the current climate in which it's "transphobic" to challenge any man in a women's facility).
Is that really one of the main reasons to want to do away with tampons?
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I just heard another woman pointing out something else. Menstrual cups are becoming very popular and many women and girls find them an improvement on pads or tampons. They're re-usable so more environmentally friendly, and the don't have to be discarded in bins in the ladies rooms (which is a bit gross, because men with a tampon fetish are known to trawl these bins for used products and they are being facilitated by the current climate in which it's "transphobic" to challenge any man in a women's facility).

However, these have to be rinsed and washed in a washbasin every time. Most public toilets, as I noted, don't have washbasins inside the stalls, where there is barely room to turn round, and the handbasins have to be used. Women are objecting strenuously to being forced to do this with a man washing his hands in the next basin.

Similarly schoolgirls, whose mothers may suggest they start off with a menstrual cup because they're very suitable for active teenagers, are absolutely mortified at the idea of having to rinse these out in handwashing areas where schoolboys have access.
Can't have trans-women in the women's bathroom because they're really men with tampon fetishes who are only pretending to be women so they can have access to the trash bins in the women's bathroom to get used tampons.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:33 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
It's a relentless assault on nearly every civilizational institution by transgender activists.
Wasn't that same-sex marriage, which was going to bring ruin upon all of us by destroying the bedrock of all of civilization?
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:33 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What were the compelling reasons given by the "practically nobody" that justify a complete upheaval for everybody which is very much disliked by the vast majority? Is it really the case that these reasons (a) trump the comfort and indeed safety of half the population, and (b) couldn't be addressed with some other solution?
A) As a progressive, I generally don't only think that the comfort of the majority is worth disenfranchising (or like in this case, severely disenfranchising) the minority, and I don't buy the safety aspect no matter the amount of terf "wisdom" you want to bring. Thus, the reasons absolutely trump the comfort of the majority.

B) There may be another solution that doesn't disenfranchises the minority, but I haven't heard about it. Maybe you could propose it publicly. Make sure it doesn't contain any nuggets of the usual sort of venom towards trans-people that you bring.

ETA: Well, there is another solution and that is unisex bathrooms. There are quite a few of those around where I live, and society hasn't ended.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:39 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Can't have trans-women in the women's bathroom because they're really men with tampon fetishes who are only pretending to be women so they can have access to the trash bins in the women's bathroom to get used tampons.
I'm sure there's a word in German for that. Also one for the situation when during a rant someone drops a scenario with such bizarre detail that you realize they're talking about something in their own head rather than something actually happening.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Can't have trans-women in the women's bathroom because they're really men with tampon fetishes who are only pretending to be women so they can have access to the trash bins in the women's bathroom to get used tampons.

Well, y'know, some of them are. We know this because they discuss it on social media. Legislation, rules and guidelines that assume everyone in a group being granted special privileges is nice, harmless and considerate, and also that nobody else will ever claim to be a member of that group to get these special privileges and then abuse them, is bad law and bad practice.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:39 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Wasn't that same-sex marriage, which was going to bring ruin upon all of us by destroying the bedrock of all of civilization?
That was only an assault on the institution of marriage. This is an assault on every civilizational institution. And it's relentless too!

It's much more serious!
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure there's a word in German for that. Also one for the situation when during a rant someone drops a scenario with such bizarre detail that you realize they're talking about something in their own head rather than something actually happening.

I don't know if it actually happens or not, but whether the social media posts describing this fetish are purely fictional or whether they're describing actual events, somebody thought of it and that's bad enough. Certainly enough to make women who are aware of them think twice before disposing of used sanitary products in a bin in a public lavatory.

This may simply be someone's sick fantasy, but the fact that women are reading it is enough to spook them. It's not the only one either.

https://twitter.com/Mason134211f/sta...49111688437762
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:42 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure there's a word in German for that. Also one for the situation when during a rant someone drops a scenario with such bizarre detail that you realize they're talking about something in their own head rather than something actually happening.
German? Okay, maybe, but I usually look to Japan to find words for those interesting but uncommon fetishes.

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Old 25th July 2019, 05:42 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Is that really one of the main reasons to want to do away with tampons?

It's one reason some women have mentioned when talking about the advantages of menstrual cups. I don't think it's a main reason, but it's in the mix.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:50 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know if it actually happens or not, but whether the social media posts describing this fetish are purely fictional or whether they're describing actual events, somebody thought of it and that's bad enough. Certainly enough to make women who are aware of them think twice before disposing of used sanitary products in a bin in a public lavatory.
Why? Even if it were true and did happen how exactly does someone collecting discarded used tampons hurt the original user? Unless they're taking DNA samples to create clones or plant fake evidence at crime scenes what's the harm?
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:53 AM   #63
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It's gross and disgusting and women feel dirty and used at the thought that their discarded products may be used in that way.
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Old 25th July 2019, 05:56 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's gross and disgusting and women feel dirty and used at the thought that their discarded products may be used in that way.
Icky feelings in reaction to a strange fantasy that you imagine might occur is not a very good reason for any public policy.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #65
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It's not a major reason. I think there are plenty major reasons, but that doesn't mean ancillary reasons can't be mentioned.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Icky feelings in reaction to a strange fantasy that you imagine might occur is not a very good reason for any public policy.
I have to agree that worrying about some specific period shaming or menstrual product fetish seems a bit too far-fetched.

But I think there is a point here. Mixed sex bathrooms and changing rooms for middle schoolers seems like a bad idea to me. Pubescent children have lots of anxiety around body image and sexuality in general. It's the inherent condition of children undergoing puberty to be uncomfortable around their bodies and those of the opposite sex. Children of that age can be quite vicious concerning these kinds of subjects and expecting kids to act with poise and decency in these scenarios is unrealistic to the nature of bratty tweens and teens.

Doing away with male and female locker rooms seems like a pretty bad solution, especially considering the relatively small number of people who are trans. Allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their self-identified gender seems like a much easier solution that treats trans people with dignity while not unduly up-heaving valuable social norms.

Mixed gender bathrooms seems like a hamfisted solution that allows for admins to punt on the question of trans gender identity.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:03 AM   #67
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Showers, toilets .. it's not really about what you identify as, but what body you currently have.
Change the pictograms on doors, and problem is solved.

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Old 25th July 2019, 06:05 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's not a major reason. I think there are plenty major reasons, but that doesn't mean ancillary reasons can't be mentioned.
Yeah, but if you want to be taken seriously you may want to omit the crazier fixations, saving them for parties or rallies or therapy.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:09 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
A) As a progressive, I generally don't only think that the comfort of the majority is worth disenfranchising (or like in this case, severely disenfranchising) the minority
On the other hand, it's not like they can't go to the bathroom at all.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:12 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yeah, but if you want to be taken seriously you may want to omit the crazier fixations, saving them for parties or rallies or therapy.

I think when discussions like this take place, many people are unaware of the range of gross and fetishistic behaviours that are out there.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:14 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure there's a word in German for that.
Rästroomkantampendiggärkrakheaderfurcht.

(fear of creeps who scrounge for tampons in restoom trash)
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:15 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Well, y'know, some of them are. We know this because they discuss it on social media.
If you dig for anecdotes, you'll find some pretty crazy **** happening all the time in the world. It doesn't mean it's worth the effort of worrying about it happening on a regular basis.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I have to agree that worrying about some specific period shaming or menstrual product fetish seems a bit too far-fetched.

But I think there is a point here. Mixed sex bathrooms and changing rooms for middle schoolers seems like a bad idea to me. Pubescent children have lots of anxiety around body image and sexuality in general. It's the inherent condition of children undergoing puberty to be uncomfortable around their bodies and those of the opposite sex. Children of that age can be quite vicious concerning these kinds of subjects and expecting kids to act with poise and decency in these scenarios is unrealistic to the nature of bratty tweens and teens.

Doing away with male and female locker rooms seems like a pretty bad solution, especially considering the relatively small number of people who are trans. Allowing trans people to use the bathroom of their self-identified gender seems like a much easier solution that treats trans people with dignity while not unduly up-heaving valuable social norms.

Mixed gender sex bathrooms seems like a hamfisted solution that allows for admins to punt on the question of trans gender identity.

Period shaming is a real thing and it's pretty widespread among adolescent boys. It has nothing to do with menstrual fetishism, which I agree is probably not very common.

However, many parents are describing girls coming home anxious and in tears because boys who are now allowed into what were the girls bathrooms are getting a lot of fun out of loudly speculating which girls are on their periods, what they're doing in the stalls, and how long it's going to take them. The prospect of rinsing out a menstrual cup where these little buggers can see is not one they view with equanimity.

And allowing male pupils who say they're uncomfortable with being male (that's not nice for them but it doesn't change their bodies into female ones) to enter the female spaces is no answer at all. Once again girls' comfort and modesty are being sacrificed to pander to the feelings of a small number of males. If a boy who hates being a boy doesn't want to change with the other boys, find somewhere else for him to do that. A proper unisex disabled facility may be suitable, or some schools have offered the use of a staff toilet.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
German? Okay, maybe, but I usually look to Japan to find words for those interesting but uncommon fetishes.
Clearly you don't know the Germans very well.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why? Even if it were true and did happen how exactly does someone collecting discarded used tampons hurt the original user? Unless they're taking DNA samples to create clones or plant fake evidence at crime scenes what's the harm?
God, I've just had a crazy idea for a disgusting horror flick.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:19 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I think when discussions like this take place, many people are unaware of the range of gross and fetishistic behaviours that are out there.
Except that you've just admitted that you don't know if it's even a real thing. Sounds like a very weak reason to bring up as an objection to trans people using restrooms of their choice.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:23 AM   #76
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I don't know that any individual social media post about menstrual fetishism is describing an actual event or is just someone sharing a fetishistic fantasy. It is known that this fetishism exists and is acted on.

It's quite interesting that you latch on to the low-incidence and hard-to-verify gross point to criticise, and completely ignore the ordinany day-to-day problems like washing out menstrual cups and washing bloodstained panties when an accident happens.

It's also interesting the sheer level of denial that girls and women have any right to bodily privacy or modesty.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:27 AM   #77
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:31 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
It's quite interesting that you latch on to the low-incidence and hard-to-verify gross point to criticise, and completely ignore the ordinany day-to-day problems like washing out menstrual cups and washing bloodstained panties when an accident happens.
What's interesting about it? I'm discussing something that you said that caught my attention. If you want to concede it, then we can surely move on to said more important issues on this topic.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:36 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Certainly enough to make women who are aware of them think twice before disposing of used sanitary products in a bin in a public lavatory.
Really? I should note that where i live it's more uncommon than common for there to be "gendered restrooms", with the exception of larger restrooms that are divided between multiple cubicles. Despite most single person restrooms being for everyone, and most of them having special disposal bins for sanitary products, I've emptied and thrown away many of those bins while i was working as a cleaner.

Seriously, you are really grasping at straws in order to come up with objections to trans-rights.
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Old 25th July 2019, 06:37 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't know that any individual social media post about menstrual fetishism is describing an actual event or is just someone sharing a fetishistic fantasy. It is known that this fetishism exists and is acted on.

It's quite interesting that you latch on to the low-incidence and hard-to-verify gross point to criticise, and completely ignore the ordinany day-to-day problems like washing out menstrual cups and washing bloodstained panties when an accident happens.

It's also interesting the sheer level of denial that girls and women have any right to bodily privacy or modesty.
You're the one who brought it up, you can't complain about it being questioned. It fits neatly into your body of work on this topic in that it illustrates a vivid delusion of persecution where evil, perverted men are in league to victimize helpless, innocent women. It's a siege mentality, and while many of your posts appear rational sometimes cracks appear. Like this very revealing morbid fantasy of tampon scavenging men.

I don't think there's much rationality in your crusade against transwomen.
Edited by jsfisher:  <snip> Let's keep the discussion to facts, not personalities.
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