ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 25th July 2019, 06:46 PM   #201
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Location, Location
Posts: 63,089
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You might want to get them to remove it from the official "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)" list of mental disorders then
Transgenderism isn't the same thing as gender dysphoria. The latter is in the DSM, the former is not. And the DSM makes a clear distinction between transgenderism and gender dysphoria. Its presence in the ICD-11 is currently under review.
__________________
Self-described nerd. Pronouns: He/Him

We can't go back. We don't understand everything yet.
"Everything" is a little ambitious. We barely understand anything.
Yeah. But that's what the first part of understanding everything looks like.
- xkcd Time (frame 1071-3)
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 06:48 PM   #202
cullennz
Embarrasingly illiterate
 
cullennz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,984
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Transgenderism isn't the same thing as gender dysphoria. The latter is in the DSM, the former is not. And the DSM makes a clear distinction between transgenderism and gender dysphoria. Its presence in the ICD-11 is currently under review.




Ta. You learn something every day
__________________
I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
cullennz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 06:52 PM   #203
ArchSas
Thinker
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 145
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
You might want to get them to remove it from the official "Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM)" list of mental disorders then
"Transgenderism" isn't in the DSM, gender dysphoria is. And that term only describes feeling intense distress about their assigned gender not matching how they identify. That isn't necessarily the same thing as "transgenderism." Not all trans people feel dysphoria, and the APA has also explicitly taken the position that gender nonconformity isn't inherently a mental illness. As it exists in the DSM currently (which, like any other mental illness, is always open to revision), the only thing considered a mental illness is the distress.

ETA: beaten to it
ArchSas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:30 PM   #204
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
I don't care that you don't care. You're the only one who decided to compare a transgender person and societal norms and pedophilia in some weird hypothetical in this thread, not anyone else. If you don't like the responses perhaps choosing a different hypothetical, or use no hypothetical at all, would be best instead of dodging the inference you clearly made.
I never compared a transgender person and pedophilia nor made any such inference,
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by zooterkin; 26th July 2019 at 04:30 AM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:32 PM   #205
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,148
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Why? That particularly highly biased web site said exactly, word for word, what was said on the not so biased web sites of local television stations that covered the event.

I think it's fair to be wary of biased web sites when presented as evidence, but after the evidence is confirmed, then it really doesn't matter where one individual first saw it. What arcade22 did was to note that the source of the article quoted by the OP is suspect due to ideological bias. Fair enough. That should be checked out. So far so good.

So, I checked it out. It turns out that the article was accurate in its facts. Obviously, some of the article was opinion, but the facts that the article presented were accurate. I presented that, and even presented a way that anyone could independently verify those facts via a google news search.


And yet, arcade22 said that we still ought to ask why the OP's specific source was a right wing one. Why? Of what relevance could it be? The facts in the article are independently verified by non-opinion based media sources.
The reason we know that what was stated in the questionable website did in fact happen is because you, amongst other people, verified it with better sources. The point is, we could not, and should not, trust the website in the OP, and it should not be accepted as a source.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:35 PM   #206
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
The reason we know that what was stated in the questionable website did in fact happen is because you, amongst other people, verified it with better sources. The point is, we could not, and should not, trust the website in the OP, and it should not be accepted as a source.
You should not trust what the website in the OP stated even if you know that what was stated did in fact happen?
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:37 PM   #207
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You have no reason to claim that conservatives, or marxists or any other ideological group, does this less than "liberals".
Yes I do.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:39 PM   #208
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm not the one conflating sex and gender!
Yes, it's amazing, right? They consistently conflate sex and gender, and then proceed to arbitrarily claim that those who actually understand the difference are supposedly the ones conflating it.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2019, 11:46 PM   #209
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by ArchSas View Post
So what point are you trying to make? You keep denying that individual in question can identify as a girl because they're "still a boy." You can say you understand the difference all you want, but that doesn't seem to be how you actually feel, or at least, not how you're presenting your argument. What do you consider the "reality" about trans people? Why do you think people should be able to be themselves as they wish, but keep insisting that the individual in question can't be a girl, and is a "still a boy?"
For someone claiming that others conflate sex and gender you surely seem to make a weird argument that a someone of the male sex (a boy) can be someone of the female sex (a girl). So tell us, how can a male individual (ie producing sperm) be a female individual (ie producing ova) merely by an act of will? Do you think gamete production is determined by mere act of will? Please provide a scientific source that supports the notion that gamete production in humans is determined by mere act of will.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin

Last edited by caveman1917; 25th July 2019 at 11:48 PM.
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 02:20 AM   #210
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes I do.
My bad. Let me rephrase: You have no objective reason to claim that conservatives, or marxists or any other ideological group, does this less than "liberals".
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 02:23 AM   #211
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Transgenderism isn't the same thing as gender dysphoria.
It wasn't too long ago that I was told that the former was caused by the latter.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:01 AM   #212
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My bad. Let me rephrase: You have no objective reason to claim that conservatives, or marxists or any other ideological group, does this less than "liberals".
Yes I do. Again, as much as you want to present your ignorance resulting from your refusal to do the necessary prerequisite work as a sign of skepticism, none of that implies that I would not have an objective reason to make that claim.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:20 AM   #213
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Yes I do.
No, you've admitted that you don't, in fact, when you said it was your personal observation and, as it's implied, your personal interpretation. If you had anything, you could present it, but you don't, and can't. Your appeal to works of political theory does not change that.

Quote:
Again, as much as you want to present your ignorance resulting from your refusal to do the necessary prerequisite work as a sign of skepticism, none of that implies that I would not have an objective reason to make that claim.
The prerequisite work of skepticism is to prove your claim. If you can't demonstrate your own claim, then what you have is not knowledge but belief. The ignorance is all yours.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:23 AM   #214
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,340
Someone has a body that is by any objective measure normal and healthy. But they insist it's the "wrong" body for them. Excuse me, how is this not a mental illness?
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:29 AM   #215
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Someone has a body that is by any objective measure normal and healthy. But they insist it's the "wrong" body for them. Excuse me, how is this not a mental illness?
I think the major issue is that the word "gender" has been redefined recently, while at the same time it's claimed that it always meant that. I don't think gender was ever seen as something wholly distinct from sex, but rather as a cultural expression of it.

The problem with the new definition is that, to me, it appears self-defeating. If gender's whatever you feel like, then it's not actually anything, and that leads us right back to biological sex, which would certainly not please transgender people.

Treating it as a mental condition, if not an illness, makes sense and removes these problems. I mean, I have a form of OCD, some people have autism or schizophrenia or a host of other mental conditions and yet manage to A) function in society and B) be treated with dignity and respect just like any other human being. All it means is that these persons' perception of themselves does not match objective reality. It doesn't solve the question of restrooms, really, but it does make the whole thing clearer and more functional, imo.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:45 AM   #216
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
No, you've admitted that you don't, in fact, when you said it was your personal observation and, as it's implied, your personal interpretation. If you had anything, you could present it, but you don't, and can't. Your appeal to works of political theory does not change that.



The prerequisite work of skepticism is to prove your claim. If you can't demonstrate your own claim, then what you have is not knowledge but belief. The ignorance is all yours.
That's like saying that because I can't demonstrate Birkhoff's theorem in a couple of paragraphs to someone entirely ignorant of physics that therefor my claim that Birkhoff's theorem is correct is "not knowledge but belief." I already gave you the reason for my claim, namely the class interest of the petit-bourgeoisie and resulting ideological features that it holds. If that's not enough for you to understand why the claim is likely true, then it's up to you to educate yourself on the prerequisite knowledge, including the tons of relevant historical analysis contained in the works I've already pointed you to.

Given that you refuse to do this, I simply consider your response the equivalent of someone who refuses to believe Birkhoff's theorem on the grounds that they don't possess the prerequisite physical and mathematical knowledge to understand the direct explanation, and I similarly don't care about your dismissal of the claim.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:45 AM   #217
uke2se
Penultimate Amazing
 
uke2se's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 13,148
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
Someone has a body that is by any objective measure normal and healthy. But they insist it's the "wrong" body for them. Excuse me, how is this not a mental illness?
Maybe a question that should be put to scientists instead of left to "common sense"?

In fact, it has been put to scientists and they do not see it as a mental illness.
__________________
Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list.

"If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1
uke2se is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:46 AM   #218
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
That's like saying that because I can't demonstrate Birkhoff's theorem in a couple of paragraphs to someone entirely ignorant of physics that therefor my claim that Birkhoff's theorem is correct is "not knowledge but belief."
Oh, by all means. Take as many paragraphs as you need.

Quote:
I already gave you the reason for my claim, namely the class interest of the petit-bourgeoisie and resulting ideological features that it holds.
And I've already addressed that. Can you remember what my response was? I bet you can't.

Quote:
Given that you refuse to do this
No, no, no. Don't blame me for your inability to support your claims. It won't work.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:48 AM   #219
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Oh, by all means. Take as many paragraphs as you need.
Great! Start with all volumes of Das Kapital, then The German Ideology, and then the Prison Notebooks by Gramsci. No idea how many paragraphs that is, but let me know when you're done.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 04:53 AM   #220
SuburbanTurkey
Graduate Poster
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 1,742
Is this where I check in to be called a bigot? I'm feeling a bit left out.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 05:12 AM   #221
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Great! Start with all volumes of Das Kapital, then The German Ideology, and then the Prison Notebooks by Gramsci. No idea how many paragraphs that is, but let me know when you're done.
Your claim, your legwork, remember?

I'm not reading hundreds of pages hoping that maybe, just maybe, there's something in there that proves your claim. And you wouldn't, either. Plus I have a nagging suspicion that the "proof" you say is there is actually someone's opinion or motivated reasoning.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 05:35 AM   #222
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,515
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
It wasn't too long ago that I was told that the former was caused by the latter.
The previous extreme stigma of trans people is only barely starting to evaporate recently. So popular discussion and even medical consideration are in the earlyish day of talking about these things. So I wouldn't expect the way people talk about them to be set in stone.

That said, see the reply I'm about to write to Rolfe for more on this particular distinction.


Originally Posted by Rolfe
Someone has a body that is by any objective measure normal and healthy. But they insist it's the "wrong" body for them. Excuse me, how is this not a mental illness?
There have, over the years, been many different models and ways of thinking about what mental illness is. For a while now, the core criteria have been focused on distress and impairment of functioning.

For some time, homosexuality was considered a mental illness. But it was recognized that the distress observed was not caused by a person being gay, but by the way gay people were perceived and treated. Take away the negative environment, and the distress evaporates as well.

Similarly, gender dysphoria is not the insistence that a a person's body is wrong for them, but the feeling of intense distress and functional impairment of feeling trapped in that wrong body. If someone wishes to change their body, and finds that decision supported, it is very possible that they won't experience such high levels of stress and functional impairment.

We generally don't consider a desire to change one's body to be a necessarily bad thing. If someone wishes to start working out and getting more muscles, that's not a mental illness. Even if their body was perfectly fine to begin with. It is only if that desire creates intense distress or impairment of function that we invoke mental illness.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 06:01 AM   #223
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,340
This thread has been bedevilled by false analogies, and in my opinion that's another one. Gay men were never trying to change themselves. They wanted acceptance for what they are. And (like homosexuality), exercise is normal. Marinating your body in the hormones of the opposite sex and/or having your genitalia surgically removed is not.

The feelings of intense distress that lead people to want to marinate their bodies in hormones these bodies were never meant to experience, or mutilate themselves surgically - are you not quite clearly describing a mental illness (or condition or whatever semantics you want to choose)?

If it were simply a case of people wanting to wearloolthes and makeup and accessories typical of the opposite sex and experiencing distress because society laughed at them for looking like right chookies, then indeed we could blame society because anyone should be able to look like a right chookie if he wants to. But a distress with one's body that impells one to seek out damaging and harmful medical and surgical body modifications? I don't think you can blame society for that.

This is not to say that providing these body modifications isn't (in some cases, indeed) the best way to relieve that distress, despite the damage and the harm to the healthy body. I know plenty of people who have been helped in that way. But to say that the underlying cause isn't a mental illness is playing with semantics.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.

Last edited by Rolfe; 26th July 2019 at 06:03 AM.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 06:12 AM   #224
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,515
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This thread has been bedevilled by false analogies, and in my opinion that's another one. Gay men were never trying to change themselves. They wanted acceptance for what they are. And (like homosexuality), exercise is normal. Marinating your body in the hormones of the opposite sex and/or having your genitalia surgically removed is not.
I don't believe currently used definitions of mental illness invoke the concept of "normal".

What do you mean by the word? Are you using it in the simple sense to mean "Very common"? In which case, where is the line? Homosexuality is a small percentage of the population. Trans people are a fraction of that, but where exactly is the line drawn between the ~4% of homosexual people and the ~.6% of trans people?

Which other desires held by a low number of people should be considered "not normal"?
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Cavemonster; 26th July 2019 at 06:13 AM.
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 06:32 AM   #225
IsThisTheLife
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 356
Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
It's in English. Learn to read.
You managed to goad/troll Rolfe, of all people, into snapping at you. That takes some serious effort. Was it worth it? Did it feel good?
__________________
"There is no sin except stupidity."
IsThisTheLife is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 06:44 AM   #226
Rolfe
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
 
Rolfe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NT 150 511
Posts: 43,340
If you really think that marinading the cells of your body in hormones they were never designed to accommodate and having your genitalia surgically removed falls within the definition of "normal", I don't think we have any more to discuss.
__________________
"The way we vote will depend, ultimately, on whether we are persuaded to hope or to fear." - Aonghas MacNeacail, June 2012.
Rolfe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 07:10 AM   #227
Cavemonster
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,515
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you really think that marinading the cells of your body in hormones they were never designed to accommodate and having your genitalia surgically removed falls within the definition of "normal", I don't think we have any more to discuss.

I think you've mistaken my meaning. I did not say that I believed undergoing transition was "normal" I was asking you to explicitly define the definition of "normal" you were using, so that I could understand how it applied to defining a mental disorder.

Here are Merriam Webster's definitions:


Quote:
Definition of normal (Entry 1 of 3)
1a : conforming to a type, standard, or regular pattern
normal working hours
He had a normal childhood.
the effect of normal aging

b : according with, constituting, or not deviating from a norm, rule, or principle
The normal way to pluralize a noun is by adding -s.

2 : occurring naturally
normal immunity

3a : of, relating to, or characterized by average intelligence or development
IQs within the normal range

b : free from mental illness : mentally sound
symptoms of paranoia in otherwise normal persons

4a of a solution : having a concentration of one gram equivalent of solute per liter

b : containing neither basic hydroxyl nor acid hydrogen
normal silver phosphate

c : not associated
normal molecules

d : having a straight-chain structure
normal butyl alcohol

5 : PERPENDICULAR
especially : perpendicular to a tangent (see TANGENT entry 1 sense 3) at a point of tangency

6 of a subgroup : having the property that every coset produced by operating on the left by a given element is equal to the coset produced by operating on the right by the same element

7 : relating to, involving, or being a normal curve or normal distribution
normal approximation to the binomial distribution

8 of a matrix : having the property of commutativity under multiplication by the transpose of the matrix (see MATRIX sense 5a) each of whose elements is a conjugate (see CONJUGATE entry 1 sense 2b) complex number with respect to the corresponding element of the given matrix
Which of these are you referring to? 3b, does indeed relate to mental illness, but it's defined in terms of mental illness, so defining mental illness in terms of that sense of "normal" would be circular and meaningless.

EDIT: Note, I've only included one of three definitions because the other refer to math and the name of a town. But if you think they're relevant, feel free to invoke them, or any other source you like.
__________________
The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon.
-G.K. CHESTERTON

Last edited by Cavemonster; 26th July 2019 at 07:13 AM.
Cavemonster is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 07:15 AM   #228
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The previous extreme stigma of trans people is only barely starting to evaporate recently.
To be replaced by "if you don't agree with this, you're a bigot", which is perhaps better, but far from perfect. As I said earlier today, having a mental condition should not be a source of derision. I'm worried that the distinction is being made in order to avoid the discussion of mental health entirely.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 07:17 AM   #229
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you really think that marinading the cells of your body in hormones they were never designed to accommodate and having your genitalia surgically removed falls within the definition of "normal", I don't think we have any more to discuss.
First, I don't know why you're suddenly using "marinating" as if it means something bad is going on. Second, while men and women are very different in a number of ways, our biologies are not incompatible, so I fail to see how my body is not "designed" to accomodate estrogen, for instance.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 07:35 AM   #230
caveman1917
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 6,526
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
To be replaced by "if you don't agree with this, you're a bigot", which is perhaps better, but far from perfect. As I said earlier today, having a mental condition should not be a source of derision. I'm worried that the distinction is being made in order to avoid the discussion of mental health entirely.
There does seem to be some (and that's again my personal observations so have a go at it if you want) undercurrent of discrimination against mental illnesses with a lot of trans activists - "How dare you think that I have a mental illness!" - as if having a mental illness makes someone less valuable as some sort of value judgement.
__________________
"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos
"We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons
"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
caveman1917 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 07:45 AM   #231
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 83,937
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
"How dare you think that I have a mental illness!" - as if having a mental illness makes someone less valuable as some sort of value judgement.
Well, there's at least one thing we can agree on.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 08:04 AM   #232
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,601
Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
You're not allowed to continue to reject the claims based on the perceived bias of the source after it has already been shown that the claims are consistent with the claims in various other, presumably less biased, sources.
Allowed? Nonsense.

We ignore the kooky source because in addition to the information lifted from the non-kooky source it also contains it's own crazy kool-aid inspired nonsense. You know, like claiming that the transgender agenda is to abolish gender, and that transgender activists are relentlessly assaulting "every civilizational institution", and presumably much more if we cared to read past the first paragraph.

Rather than waste time with the odious task of picking kernels of corn from the turd, we dismiss the turd. If you want to make an argument citing only the non-kooky source then you do the work and do that. It's not my job to polish your argument to it's best version and then pretend that was your argument all along while I rebut it.

Do your work.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 08:06 AM   #233
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,319
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
This thread has been bedevilled by false analogies, and in my opinion that's another one. Gay men were never trying to change themselves. They wanted acceptance for what they are. And (like homosexuality), exercise is normal. Marinating your body in the hormones of the opposite sex and/or having your genitalia surgically removed is not.

It is obviously not true that gay men never tried to change themselves. Some of them still do, and some people still encourage them to do so.
But it was (and is) a very different kind of change, of course. They were ashamed of their sexual orientation and wanted to change it into heterosexuality. The means weren't less drastic than the means used by transexuals to turn into another sex/gender nowadays.
Brain surgery (lobotomy) was used in Sweden as a way to 'cure' both homosexuality and transsexuality until the 1970s.
The ‘gay cure’ experiments that were written out of scientific history (Mosaic, July 5, 2016)
Sexual orientation change efforts (Wikipedia)
Lobotomy: The rise and fall of a miracle cure (4thWaveNow, Feb. 10, 2017)

Quote:
The feelings of intense distress that lead people to want to marinate their bodies in hormones these bodies were never meant to experience, or mutilate themselves surgically - are you not quite clearly describing a mental illness (or condition or whatever semantics you want to choose)?

Have you considered why you find the use of the metaphor marinate useful in this context? Is it your belief in a creator with a purpose that makes you think that bodies were meant to experience anything at all?! If not, who meant them to do so? When transexuals receive hormone treatment or undergo surgery, however, it is obviously because they themselves mean to change their bodies into an approximation of the the other sex, the one they weren't born as.

Quote:
If it were simply a case of people wanting to wearloolthes and makeup and accessories typical of the opposite sex and experiencing distress because society laughed at them for looking like right chookies, then indeed we could blame society because anyone should be able to look like a right chookie if he wants to. But a distress with one's body that impells one to seek out damaging and harmful medical and surgical body modifications? I don't think you can blame society for that.

I have no idea what a "right chookie" is supposed to mean, but it sounds condescending.
Do transexuals claim that society makes them want to undergo "medical and surgical body modifications"?

Quote:
This is not to say that providing these body modifications isn't (in some cases, indeed) the best way to relieve that distress, despite the damage and the harm to the healthy body. I know plenty of people who have been helped in that way. But to say that the underlying cause isn't a mental illness is playing with semantics.

Are you familiar with (m)any cases where psychotherapy has helped transexuals get rid of their craving to be(come) as similar as possible to the sex that they weren't born as? How does/would it differ from gay conversion therapy?
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 26th July 2019 at 08:13 AM.
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 08:07 AM   #234
jeremyp
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
Posts: 780
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're the one who brought it up, you can't complain about it being questioned. It fits neatly into your body of work on this topic in that it illustrates a vivid delusion of persecution where evil, perverted men are in league to victimize helpless, innocent women. It's a siege mentality, and while many of your posts appear rational sometimes cracks appear. Like this very revealing morbid fantasy of tampon scavenging men.
I think it's interesting that, of the several reasons put forward to explain why the high school girls of the original story might not want trans women in their bathrooms, a lot of people have focussed on the flimsy one.

Quote:
I don't think there's much rationality in your crusade against transwomen. I think it's a delusion of persecution and you would be better served to discuss these feelings with a professional than online.
I think your accusation is beneath contempt.

The bottom line here is that we have some biological high school girls who have expressed discomfort with the idea of sharing bathrooms with biological males and we have transgender girls who have expressed discomfort at sharing bathrooms with cis gendered boys. Under the traditional arrangements, there is no way to accommodate both groups. I don't see a good answer to fix the issue except by changing attitudes to bathrooms and that can't happen overnight.

Personally, I think we should ditch the idea of gendered bathrooms altogether and just divide them according to genitalia. After all, when you go inside a bathroom, it's clear the design is optimised based on whether you have a penis or not. So people with penises should use the bathroom with urinals and fewer stalls and people without penises should use the one with no urinals and more stalls.
jeremyp is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 08:09 AM   #235
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,601
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
If you really think that marinading the cells of your body in hormones they were never designed to accommodate and having your genitalia surgically removed falls within the definition of "normal", I don't think we have any more to discuss.
All of modern medicine, including veterinary medicine, falls outside the bounds of "normal". Normal in non-interference, but we've discovered we can achieve better outcomes with interference.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 08:36 AM   #236
dann
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 8,319
Originally Posted by jeremyp View Post
I think it's interesting that, of the several reasons put forward to explain why the high school girls of the original story might not want trans women in their bathrooms, a lot of people have focussed on the flimsy one.


I think your accusation is beneath contempt.

The bottom line here is that we have some biological high school girls who have expressed discomfort with the idea of sharing bathrooms with biological males and we have transgender girls who have expressed discomfort at sharing bathrooms with cis gendered boys. Under the traditional arrangements, there is no way to accommodate both groups. I don't see a good answer to fix the issue except by changing attitudes to bathrooms and that can't happen overnight.

Personally, I think we should ditch the idea of gendered bathrooms altogether and just divide them according to genitalia. After all, when you go inside a bathroom, it's clear the design is optimised based on whether you have a penis or not. So people with penises should use the bathroom with urinals and fewer stalls and people without penises should use the one with no urinals and more stalls.

Why would you need to divide bathrooms at all? I have already mentioned that there's a very simple solution to the problem. It may require the visit of a plumber and maybe new signs on the doors, but that seems to do the trick.
However, there is no guarantee that the ultra-right Christians won't continue their crusade against transexuals and everybody else. That's not a problem that a plumber can fix. Plumbers also can't fix the problem of mainstream American prudery.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 10:17 AM   #237
applecorped
Suspended
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 19,621
Females will just have to accept it like they've always had to accept being told what to do
applecorped is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 10:52 AM   #238
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,601
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I disagree. I think it's about being unwilling to accept that gender dysphoria is dysphoria.
I have no idea what you mean by that, can you explain?
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 11:01 AM   #239
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,601
Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The reality is that they have a mental illness that makes causes them to feel extreme discomfort with their sexed bodies. Or else they're males with autogynaephilia, not all of whom have any discomfort with their bodies or any desire to change them. They deserve proper mental health diagnosis and care, and whatever treatment seems most likely to alleviate their discomfort stopping short of giving them the legal right to violate the rights of other people.

Single-sex spaces are single-sex spaces. They're about the reality of sexed bodies, not about nebulous feelings in people's heads, or LARPing, or a costume, or a performance.
They're mentally ill or they're perverts, and if we allow them to use the bathrooms of their choice they will take the opportunity to ogle, molest or assault young boys or girls and take the opportunity to go through the trash bins for used tampons.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
The individual can't be a girl because he isn't a girl, no more than I can be 16, or six feet tall, or black. Physical reality is important and words mean things.
It's also true that human understanding increases over time, and just because you feel one way to be correct and self-evident doesn't mean that medical science will agree with you.
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th July 2019, 11:03 AM   #240
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
 
Mycroft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 19,601
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is that really what it's about?

Really really?

I call shenanigans. I don't think that's really what it's about at all.

One reason I don't think that is because that isn't what it's about for me.

For me, it's about accepting that gender dysphoria is real, but not being sure that validating the condition is the best form of treatment, neither for the sufferer nor for the rest of society.

So no, not really. You're just pulling crap out of your ass. At least it's is the right place to pull crap from, so you've got that going for you. Which is nice.
You're basically just saying what I said in a different way. You think medical science is wrong based on your feelings, that trans-women aren't really women and trans-men aren't really men.

Doesn't that about sum it up?
Mycroft is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:05 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.