ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 5th August 2019, 07:54 AM   #121
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,787
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No good attempting to blame him. Davis didn't even want to agree to allow the EU to separate the 'divorce deal' from the 'future trade deal'. If he'd been allowed by May to negotiate the way he wanted (more like Boris is attempting to now) then we'd never have had May's pathetic deal in the first place and we wouldn't have wasted almost two years...
See?
The "it was May's deal" rewrite is coming along nicely.

Nothing to do with lazy-bastard Davis.

If we'd negotiated like Johnson is trying to now we'd have come away with precisely what Johnson will come away with...bugger all.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:10 AM   #122
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,144
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. They all want a deal - including Boris and Rees Mogg. What they won't accept is May's surrender deal.
You are going to have to show me where the deal(s) they want is(are) expressed in any way shape or form.

Then we can see if it's a) possible and b) even close to being agreeable to the EU
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:12 AM   #123
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,675
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're missing the main fact that the "deal" they were voting on was a remain-led one.
Not true.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:41 AM   #124
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,857
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
What negotiations has Boris undertaken? None at all. Boris has no plan. What alternative to May's deal do the Brexiteers have? None at all.
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal. That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #125
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,857
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Nothing to do with lazy-bastard Davis.
Absolutely correct, as I've already explained.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:44 AM   #126
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I try to be a moving target
Posts: 14,576
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Wrong again. They all want a deal - including Boris and Rees Mogg. What they won't accept is May's surrender deal.
May's deal met perfectly the question on the referendum paper.

That you and others don't accept her deal makes it clear that any particular leave option may not be fully supported by those voting leave and therefore may not have majority support.

Thank you for making so clearly the case for a second referendum.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:54 AM   #127
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,857
Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
May's deal met perfectly the question on the referendum paper.

That you and others don't accept her deal makes it clear that any particular leave option may not be fully supported by those voting leave and therefore may not have majority support.

Thank you for making so clearly the case for a second referendum.
I said that May's deal 'ticked the box' of exiting the EU. But remainers and leavers alike agreed that it was worse than remaining in the EU - none of the advantages of being a full EU member, and none of the advantages of being completely outside the EU either (as long as the backstop was in force, which could have been forever if the EU so decreed).

So it was a terrible deal.

May said countless times, 'no deal is better than a bad deal', but was lying because she was actually afraid of leaving with no deal.

Leavers took her at her word and will continue to pursue no deal unless and until the EU offer a reasonable deal - or until the remainers succeed in their treachery and prevent Brexit entirely.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:17 AM   #128
Lothian
should be banned
 
Lothian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: I try to be a moving target
Posts: 14,576
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I said that May's deal 'ticked the box' of exiting the EU. But remainers and leavers alike agreed that it was worse than remaining in the EU - none of the advantages of being a full EU member, and none of the advantages of being completely outside the EU either (as long as the backstop was in force, which could have been forever if the EU so decreed).

So it was a terrible deal.

May said countless times, 'no deal is better than a bad deal', but was lying because she was actually afraid of leaving with no deal.

Leavers took her at her word and will continue to pursue no deal unless and until the EU offer a reasonable deal - or until the remainers succeed in their treachery and prevent Brexit entirely.
Once again. Thank you. You confirmed that any leave deal can not be assumed to have majority support and another referendum is required.
Lothian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:25 AM   #129
Pixel42
Schrödinger's cat
 
Pixel42's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Malmesbury, UK
Posts: 11,000
May's deal was indeed worse than remaining in the EU. Any deal is going to be worse than remaining in the EU. It's the fact that the Brexiteers want two mutually exclusive things - leaving the EU and being better off - that has resulted in the current stalemate.
__________________
"If you trust in yourself ... and believe in your dreams ... and follow your star ... you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things" - Terry Pratchett
Pixel42 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:26 AM   #130
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,541
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal.
The EU has been very clear about its deal "structure", not least because it's been implemented by various other countries:

If you want to be in the EEA, you have to agree to the four freedoms.

If you want to be in a customs union, you have to agree to EU standards.

Otherwise you're left with negotiating a free trade deal which is never going to be as favourable or comprehensive as either of the first two.

We want to play golf but so far we have refused to join the club or pay a green fee. The Brexiteer plan seems to be to wait to be asked to play for free - good luck with that.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
It would never have worked. The Withdrawal Agreement is the best deal that could be got with all of the red lines.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:43 AM   #131
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 26,541
Matt Hancock is now saying that Parliament is powerless to stop a no-deal Brexit (in direct contradiction of what he said when he was running for Conservative leader)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49234603

Alternatively, Dominic Cummings is suggesting that Boris Johnson could simply ignore a vote of no confidence and take the UK out on a no-deal.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:47 AM   #132
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,144
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal.
That's the plan? Do nothing and hope someone else comes up with a solution?
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:51 AM   #133
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,655
I know it's infra dig to fall back on whatboutery but I gain wry amusement from being labelled treacherous when the Leave campaign is funded by people literally betting on the damage they will cause:

Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:52 AM   #134
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,313
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal. That plan would have stood a greater chance of working, had Davis been allowed by May to try it two years ago. At this late stage, after all the time wasted by May's deal, it could still work, but there is less chance.
That is the plan?
Do nothing at all? That is the plan for something the UK itself put in motion? Do nothing and let other countries fix it for the UK?

May I quote myself to show how pathetic I think this position is?

Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
It must be so frustrating, being a brexiteer, never getting your way, despite having almost all political parties trying to act out that policy you want. Yet it is also so refreshing, being a brexiteer, never ever having to bear any responsibility or even do anything at all, except for pointing at others that you say have failed you.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 09:54 AM   #135
Archie Gemmill Goal
Philosopher
 
Archie Gemmill Goal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 6,144
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Matt Hancock is now saying that Parliament is powerless to stop a no-deal Brexit (in direct contradiction of what he said when he was running for Conservative leader)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49234603

Alternatively, Dominic Cummings is suggesting that Boris Johnson could simply ignore a vote of no confidence and take the UK out on a no-deal.
Parliament can vote to rescind Article 50.
__________________
"I love sex and drugs and sausage rolls
But nothing compares to Archie Gemmill's goal"
Archie Gemmill Goal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 10:16 AM   #136
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,430
Personnally I feel the UK has done nothing but whine and moan from the moment they joined the EU, demanding exemption upon exemption while at the same time happily using what they could. And at the same time blaming purely domestic problems on the EU.

May's deal was far more generous than I would have liked, and while I know this is anecdotal, I do know that this sentiment is not unique in the rest of the EU. So my guess would be that holding out for a better deal will mean no deal at all.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 10:24 AM   #137
erwinl
Master Poster
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,313
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Personnally I feel the UK has done nothing but whine and moan from the moment they joined the EU, demanding exemption upon exemption while at the same time happily using what they could. And at the same time blaming purely domestic problems on the EU.

May's deal was far more generous than I would have liked, and while I know this is anecdotal, I do know that this sentiment is not unique in the rest of the EU. So my guess would be that holding out for a better deal will mean no deal at all.
That was my thought as well.
I didn't think the UK deserved such a good deal after all the whining they did during all those years in the EU. But I also figured that we have to look to the future.

But apparently the UK (or at least a very sizable part of it) doesn't want that. They're locked into whining and complaining and lost their ability to do active and positive things. (as said before. Not all the people, just a very large part. And that part has been in charge for the last few years).
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 10:58 AM   #138
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,162
Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
That's the plan? Do nothing and hope someone else comes up with a solution?
Well yea that has been clear right after the vote happened and all the senior leave campaigners wanted nothing to do with the process.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:02 AM   #139
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 47,162
Hmm now I am imagining a new version of the classic Blazing Saddles scene with Boris holding a gun to his head saying "Give us all the benefits of EU membership with none of the costs or the limeys Get it!"

In leave circles this is called a strong bargaining position.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:20 AM   #140
TheSupermeerkat
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 459
Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If the UK survived Hitler it will survive Brexit...!
I recall it needed US money and Russia shedding its blood on the Eastern front to survive Hitler.

What's it got now to help to survive Brexit now? Relying on the charity of predatory America.

Yeah, the UK will survive but what will be left of it?
TheSupermeerkat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:36 AM   #141
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,675
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The plan is to wait for the EU to offer a reasonable deal.
And when the EU continues to laugh at Britain's deluded pretentiousness?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:38 AM   #142
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,675
Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Personnally I feel the UK has done nothing but whine and moan from the moment they joined the EU, demanding exemption upon exemption while at the same time happily using what they could. And at the same time blaming purely domestic problems on the EU.
Hence the utter lack of sympathy for Britain and it's decision to commit economic suicide.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 12:29 PM   #143
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,877
Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I know it's infra dig to fall back on whatboutery but I gain wry amusement from being labelled treacherous when the Leave campaign is funded by people literally betting on the damage they will cause:
That's beautiful.

Sean lock made a very good point a while back when he said that people over 65 shouldn't get a vote, because it's not actually their future. Their future is in a box.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 02:07 PM   #144
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,015
The bottom line? (With the meat in bold)...

---

The prime minister’s senior adviser, Dominic Cummings, instructed special advisers across the government to keep on top of preparations for a no deal Brexit early on Monday morning and attacked Philip Hammond, the former chancellor, for failing to get the country ready.

Over the weekend, it became clear he believes that Johnson could simply refuse to resign in the event of losing a no-confidence motion and schedule an general election for November – after leaving the EU at the end of October.

Johnson said on Monday that an election was the “last thing” he wanted. But his official spokesman stressed at his regular briefing for journalists that Brexit would take place on 31 October “whatever the circumstances”, even if parliament has voted against a no-deal departure or passed a confidence motion against the prime minister necessitating an election.

----

Once again, we're looking at the default position. If Johnson simply obstructs to the maximum extent then we crash out. There is no parliamentary procedure that can stop that, as far as I can see.

I don't know quite what's in it for him to take such a path, as it would seem to consign him to political oblivion.

p.s. Cummings is, apparently, wielding a lot of power in Downing St. and is also [expletives deleted]
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut

Last edited by GlennB; 5th August 2019 at 02:15 PM.
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 02:10 PM   #145
KDLarsen
Illuminator
 
KDLarsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,046
Quelle surprise
Quote:
Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating Brexit deal, EU told

No-deal Brexit is British PM’s ‘central scenario’, chief Brussels envoy reportedly says


Boris Johnson has no intention of renegotiating the withdrawal agreement and a no-deal Brexit is his “central scenario”, European diplomats have been told, amid hardening evidence in Westminster that the government is expecting to crash out of the EU.

Brussels diplomats briefed after a meeting between the prime minister’s chief envoy and senior EU figures in Brussels said that Britain’s refusal to compromise was understood to have been clear to those attending.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...enario-eu-told
KDLarsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 02:20 PM   #146
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,877
Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Quelle surprise
Any Pom who doesn't have a contingency plan for a near breakdown of the entire United Kingdom on 1 November is mad.

I can see lots of problems arising very quickly, not least of which will be the supply chain, which will screw up monumentally and it'll be like Venezuela a couple of years ago when they ran out of bog paper.

Stockpile essentials. Heck, I'd be buying enough of some goods to be able to sell them.

I think the "what if" scenarios are all done and dusted.
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 02:47 PM   #147
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 20,675
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Any Pom who doesn't have a contingency plan for a near breakdown of the entire United Kingdom on 1 November is mad.

I can see lots of problems arising very quickly, not least of which will be the supply chain, which will screw up monumentally and it'll be like Venezuela a couple of years ago when they ran out of bog paper.

Stockpile essentials. Heck, I'd be buying enough of some goods to be able to sell them.

I think the "what if" scenarios are all done and dusted.
You should see some of the corporate contingency plans. Sweet jeebus...
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:14 PM   #148
GlennB
Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian
 
GlennB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Arcadia, Greece
Posts: 25,015
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Any Pom who doesn't have a contingency plan for a near breakdown of the entire United Kingdom on 1 November is mad.
The Poms in this house are quietly drawing up plans for returning to the UK.

If it comes to it we'll deal with UK madness when we get there
__________________
"Even a broken clock is right twice a day. 9/11 truth is a clock with no hands." - Beachnut
GlennB is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:38 PM   #149
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
See?
The "it was May's deal" rewrite is coming along nicely.

Nothing to do with lazy-bastard Davis.

If we'd negotiated like Johnson is trying to now we'd have come away with precisely what Johnson will come away with...bugger all.
No, no, no. That picture of Davis at the EU negotiation with, er, nothing in front of him, whilst the EU guys - especially Barnier - had piles of paperwork in front of them, was just a dastardly plot by Johnny Foreigner to make him look stupid and unprepared.

Davis got revenge on Barnier when he visited the UK. French bastard.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:42 PM   #150
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
That's beautiful.

Sean lock made a very good point a while back when he said that people over 65 shouldn't get a vote, because it's not actually their future. Their Everybody's future is in a box.
FIFY
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:46 PM   #151
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The bottom line? (With the meat in bold)...

---

The prime minister’s senior adviser, Dominic Cummings, instructed special advisers across the government to keep on top of preparations for a no deal Brexit early on Monday morning and attacked Philip Hammond, the former chancellor, for failing to get the country ready.

Over the weekend, it became clear he believes that Johnson could simply refuse to resign in the event of losing a no-confidence motion and schedule an general election for November – after leaving the EU at the end of October.

Johnson said on Monday that an election was the “last thing” he wanted. But his official spokesman stressed at his regular briefing for journalists that Brexit would take place on 31 October “whatever the circumstances”, even if parliament has voted against a no-deal departure or passed a confidence motion against the prime minister necessitating an election.

----

Once again, we're looking at the default position. If Johnson simply obstructs to the maximum extent then we crash out. There is no parliamentary procedure that can stop that, as far as I can see.

I don't know quite what's in it for him to take such a path, as it would seem to consign him to political oblivion.

p.s. Cummings is, apparently, wielding a lot of power in Downing St. and is also [expletives deleted]

Cummings' namesake, e e cummings wrote:

Quote:
You have played,
(I think)
And broke the toys you were fondest of,
And are a little tired now;
Tired of things that break, and—
Just tired.
So am I.
And so are we all.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:52 PM   #152
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Quote:

Thought you were clever when you lit the fuse
Tore down the house of commons in your brand new shoes
Compose a revolutionary symphony
Then went to bed with a charming young thing

Hello-hurrah, cheers then mate, its the Eton rifles
Hello-hurrah, an extremist scrape, with the Eton rifles

~Jam

Yet another twit runningruining the country.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 03:54 PM   #153
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Suomi
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The Poms in this house are quietly drawing up plans for returning to the UK.

If it comes to it we'll deal with UK madness when we get there
One here is quietly drawing up plans to leave the UK.
__________________
Then let the way appear, steps unto heav'n.
All that thou sendest me, in mercy giv'n.'
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 08:29 PM   #154
The Atheist
The Grammar Tyrant
 
The Atheist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,877
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You should see some of the corporate contingency plans. Sweet jeebus...
I have. It's nice to see Brexiters involved in so many of them. Heartwarming.

Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The Poms in this house are quietly drawing up plans for returning to the UK.

If it comes to it we'll deal with UK madness when we get there
Sheesh, you'll have plenty of room on the plane - every Pom I know is trying to figure how to get out.

PLENTY OF JOBS IN NZ, PEOPLE!!
__________________
The point of equilibrium has passed; satire and current events are now indistinguishable.
The Atheist is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 10:43 PM   #155
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,169
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Matt Hancock is now saying that Parliament is powerless to stop a no-deal Brexit (in direct contradiction of what he said when he was running for Conservative leader)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49234603
He seems to be saying two different things. Parliament still has the power to stop a no-deal Brexit that's a given, but it is his opinion this group of MPs is unable to come to an agreement that would be needed to stop the no-deal Brexit.

From the article:

During his bid for the Tory leadership, Matt Hancock said no deal was "not an available choice" to the next PM, as MPs "will never allow it to happen".
He told the BBC he had now changed his mind because they had a chance to block it in a series of votes last month, but failed to muster the numbers.


Quote:
Alternatively, Dominic Cummings is suggesting that Boris Johnson could simply ignore a vote of no confidence and take the UK out on a no-deal.
Can BJ do that? Ignoring a vote of no confidence by Parliament seems like something out of 1640s.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه

Last edited by McHrozni; 5th August 2019 at 10:45 PM.
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:13 PM   #156
ceptimus
puzzler
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 5,857
He doesn't have to ignore a vote of no confidence. Leaving the EU on 31st October is the law, and a vote of no confidence doesn't change the law. The law allows the Prime Minister to request an extension, but there is no law that says a vote of no confidence forces the Prime Minister to do that.
There are various conventions about the timing of general elections following a vote of no confidence, but if the usual polling day of Thursday is to be retained, then the earliest possible vote of no confidence results in an earliest general election AFTER October 31st.
Then there is the convention that an outgoing government doesn't do anything significant during the general election campaign - but you can argue that both ways: certainly leaving the EU after a vote of no confidence intended to stop that would be significant; but it would also be significant to ignore the law passed by parliament requiring us to leave on 31st.
ceptimus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:14 PM   #157
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,457
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Can BJ do that? Ignoring a vote of no confidence by Parliament seems like something out of 1640s.
In this context "ignoring" means not resigning as Prime Minister.

The Fixed Term Parliament Act changed the rules. Previously losing a vote of no confidence meant an immediate election. Now the Government has 14 days for another vote of confidence before an election. If Boris Johnson doesn't resign as Prime Minister at the first vote of no confidence then he still has control of the government (but possibly not Parliament) and can ensure any election is past 31st October, and that no extension to the timetable happens.

Getting a new Prime Minister would probably involve the Queen intervening, which seems very very unlikely.

Last edited by Aber; 5th August 2019 at 11:15 PM.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:22 PM   #158
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,169
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
He doesn't have to ignore a vote of no confidence. Leaving the EU on 31st October is the law, and a vote of no confidence doesn't change the law. The law allows the Prime Minister to request an extension, but there is no law that says a vote of no confidence forces the Prime Minister to do that.
There are various conventions about the timing of general elections following a vote of no confidence, but if the usual polling day of Thursday is to be retained, then the earliest possible vote of no confidence results in an earliest general election AFTER October 31st.
Then there is the convention that an outgoing government doesn't do anything significant during the general election campaign - but you can argue that both ways: certainly leaving the EU after a vote of no confidence intended to stop that would be significant; but it would also be significant to ignore the law passed by parliament requiring us to leave on 31st.
I'm reasonably certain Parliament would vote to ask (beg) for an extension if it was facing a general election shortly after Brexit day.
Unless the election was held immediately after Brexit day there is no guarantee it could be held at all, with voter panic and all.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:27 PM   #159
McHrozni
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,169
Originally Posted by Aber View Post
In this context "ignoring" means not resigning as Prime Minister.

The Fixed Term Parliament Act changed the rules. Previously losing a vote of no confidence meant an immediate election. Now the Government has 14 days for another vote of confidence before an election. If Boris Johnson doesn't resign as Prime Minister at the first vote of no confidence then he still has control of the government (but possibly not Parliament) and can ensure any election is past 31st October, and that no extension to the timetable happens.
It depends on when the vote is held. If it's held in late October then sure, that is a viable possibility that would require Parliament to act in other ways to prevent it. If it's in September or early October a new election would be called well before Brexit day.

With election looming, Parliament will probably force the PM to beg for an extension. Probably. Tories would likely vote against, since holding a vote just after a no-deal Brexit eliminates Farage as a competitor and there's really no way they can lose. Either they win power or someone else has to solve the feces they created. Both are sort of a win. But their working majority is near nil so it's likely Parliament will still opt for an extension, ruining the Tories.

McHrozni
__________________
لا إله إلا رجل والعلوم والتكنولوجيا وأنبيائه
McHrozni is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th August 2019, 11:45 PM   #160
Aber
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,457
Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If it's in September or early October a new election would be called well before Brexit day.
No

As I understand it there are 3 things which drive the timetable:
  • votes of no confidence and the 2 weeks required between them
  • "wash-up" session to clear Parliamentary business probably 1 -2 weeks
  • election campaign IIRC minimum of 5 weeks

If Boris Johnson is still Prime Minister he controls the timetable, and an election before 31st October is difficult. If he was trolling then call it for the 31st; polls close 10pm, leave EU 11pm.

Parliament does not get to ask for an extension; it has to be the Government, which is why who is Prime Minister is so critical. It is far easier for Parliament to stop the Government doing things than to force them to do something specific - that would normally involve changing the Prime Minister.

Last edited by Aber; 5th August 2019 at 11:50 PM.
Aber is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:28 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.