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Old 13th August 2019, 12:48 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
It's a 'net thing.

I once started a thread on this very forum citing criminal charges against a mother for having her six year old daughter film her and her male friends having group sex.

One particular poster took issue w/ the criminal charges against the mother...because who can say for sure if the six-year-old kid was actually harmed by the experience...
And really there is nothing wrong with scapegoats. They are a fundamental part of justice.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:52 PM   #242
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Also, this is all a ******* stupid red herring. This guy didn't have a legal subscription from a doctor, he didn't live in a state that has ******* legalized it, and he was taking psychedelic mushrooms on a daily basis without any form of oversight. This wasn't some, "Oh, I have a weed license in a legal state and I just lied because it's a technicality".

That also doesn't mention he was growing his own drugs, which could be extremely potent or contain other forms of chemicals.

It's amazing that the pro-gun individuals are, unsurprisingly, also pro-overlooking parts of the law when it comes to the process. Yet, these are the same people that shout, "No more laws, enforce the ones we have!"

I'm zero percent shocked by the complete and blatant hypocrisy.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:53 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Ok, then what? I am not arguing with it if they said on a federal form that they didn't smoke weed, but did. Either way that's lying on a ******* federal form and it's illegal.

So now that we're in agreement. What?
Smoking weed in and of itself is illegal in the entire country.

I get it you have no trouble with prosecutors picking and choosing exactly when to enforce a law and ignore it. This is a clear case of scapegoating which I guess is now a high form of justice or something.

Its like the abu graib guards. It isn't that they did anything that we are not happy to have done to detainees as shown by how happy we are to have a torturer in charge of the CIA, it is that they made some bad press by letting evidence get out instead of destroying the photographic records like others did. That is the true sin they committed not some BS about abuse of those being detained read the torture report from congress we are fine and happy to have people tortured and as long as they were following orders it is fine unless they make bad press.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:56 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Smoking weed in and of itself is illegal in the entire country.

I get it you have no trouble with prosecutors picking and choosing exactly when to enforce a law and ignore it. This is a clear case of scapegoating which I guess is now a high form of justice or something.

Its like the abu graib guards....
No, it's not. It's not "like" anything. It's exactly the situation we're talking about and we don't need jacked up analogies to make it look like something else. It's exactly this.

When did I say I didn't have any trouble with prosecutors picking and choosing? Can you quote me? Go ahead, I'll wait.
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Old 13th August 2019, 12:58 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It's amazing that the pro-gun individuals are, unsurprisingly, also pro-overlooking parts of the law when it comes to the process. Yet, these are the same people that shout, "No more laws, enforce the ones we have!"

I'm zero percent shocked by the complete and blatant hypocrisy.
Um I want tons of new laws like having every gun tracked and its ownership and transfer always recorded.

I don't like it when people get charged for political reasons with crimes that are never prosecuted otherwise. That is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this. There are tons of stupid gun laws involved in this case, like how short barreled rifles are really on the honor system as when you buy an ar-15 pistol as a receiver and then all the other parts there just don't put a real stock on it when you have a short barrel on it or it is a felony. Wink Wink.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:01 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
No, it's not. It's not "like" anything. It's exactly the situation we're talking about and we don't need jacked up analogies to make it look like something else. It's exactly this.

When did I say I didn't have any trouble with prosecutors picking and choosing? Can you quote me? Go ahead, I'll wait.
Hey we aren't bothering to try to get anyone else who does this even when we know they did it, that is certainly looking like politically based prosecution and you are in favor of this prosecution. How hard it is to connect saying "I like X, and X is Y" to logically get "I like Y"?
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:06 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I don't like it when people get charged for political reasons with crimes that are never prosecuted otherwise. That is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this.
It is prosecuted. You not hearing about something doesn't mean it doesn't take place. I found that in about 2 seconds. That also took place about 4 months ago, not some outdated article.

You'll never guess how it came to play out too! It's extremely similar to this. Guy lied, got a gun, got in some trouble, they dug it up and charged him. Funny, that.

The rest of that post I couldn't find a way to care less about.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey we aren't bothering to try to get anyone else who does this even when we know they did it, that is certainly looking like politically based prosecution and you are in favor of this prosecution. How hard it is to connect saying "I like X, and X is Y" to logically get "I like Y"?
Only, as I showed, no, though. You're wrong. I'll expect you to rescind this.

ETA: Just wanted to add, it looks like there were 12 of these cases processed in fiscal 2017. Here's another article where it shows that people who do lie on these forms generally go on to commit crimes. So it looks like ignoring this actually has real world consequences.

Now back to your regularly scheduled handwaving.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:43 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Um I want tons of new laws like having every gun tracked and its ownership and transfer always recorded.

I don't like it when people get charged for political reasons with crimes that are never prosecuted otherwise. That is what leaves a bad taste in my mouth about this. There are tons of stupid gun laws involved in this case, like how short barreled rifles are really on the honor system as when you buy an ar-15 pistol as a receiver and then all the other parts there just don't put a real stock on it when you have a short barrel on it or it is a felony. Wink Wink.
I guess you didn't read the "constructive possession" memo:

https://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/0...ion-of-an-sbr/

Well folks my name is Jesus Amador, you out there might just know me as Digitalage03, i recently met up with a prospected buyer for my sp89 clone pistol, well turns out the guy was a undercover cop and the reason he wanted to meet up with me is because he saw that i was selling the pistol with a stock as one of the accessories, which by the way it was never on the gun and it is legal to own, you just cant install it without a tax stamp, well anyways once i met up with him not only did i get slammed to the ground and had about 7 armed cops (one of which) had a loaded 12ga to the back of my head
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:51 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
ETA: Just wanted to add, it looks like there were 12 of these cases processed in fiscal 2017. Here's another article where it shows that people who do lie on these forms generally go on to commit crimes. So it looks like ignoring this actually has real world consequences.
I think I generally agree with you here, but I really wish every single rejected background check was followed up if the rejection was based on fraud. If the rejection was due to an honest answer on the form that triggered a failure, then no need for prosecution, but if someone lies no the form they should be investigated and cause should be brought way more often than 12 times a year.

Even if they are lying about marijuana use. Sorry, you can't change federal law at the state level and we have a federal background check system. Pick a hobby, pot or pistols.
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Old 13th August 2019, 01:58 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think I generally agree with you here, but I really wish every single rejected background check was followed up if the rejection was based on fraud. If the rejection was due to an honest answer on the form that triggered a failure, then no need for prosecution, but if someone lies no the form they should be investigated and cause should be brought way more often than 12 times a year.

Even if they are lying about marijuana use. Sorry, you can't change federal law at the state level and we have a federal background check system. Pick a hobby, pot or pistols.
I agree on all of this. In fact, I really don't understand why they aren't investigated. If they want a gun and are willing to lie about it then that should send off a red flag or two. Someone might want to keep an eye on that individual.

On a separate note, it's not like I'm saying they should have to take a drug test or that people who check 'no' on the pot question should be second guessed. I get it, this will happen. I don't; however, think that when it was proven (he admitted to it, had a bong in the open, the cops smelled weed, then they found some pot) that he shouldn't be charged because some people think it's not fair, or some such nonsense.

ETA: Maybe for a separate thread, but this kind of flies in the face of the theory that if criminals want a gun they'll get one from the black market. The evidence I showed, plus this case, goes to show that it's either easier or worth the risk to still try and obtain one "legally" rather than heading to the black market.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:12 PM   #251
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What a terrible miscarriage of justice!

Guy is only a fellow traveller w/ a mass murderer, scores him some gear out of the goodness of their heart and for no reason at all the law falls on them like a ton of bricks.

Obviously anyone that doesn't condemn that is a fascist.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:28 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I agree on all of this. In fact, I really don't understand why they aren't investigated. If they want a gun and are willing to lie about it then that should send off a red flag or two. Someone might want to keep an eye on that individual.

On a separate note, it's not like I'm saying they should have to take a drug test or that people who check 'no' on the pot question should be second guessed. I get it, this will happen. I don't; however, think that when it was proven (he admitted to it, had a bong in the open, the cops smelled weed, then they found some pot) that he shouldn't be charged because some people think it's not fair, or some such nonsense.

ETA: Maybe for a separate thread, but this kind of flies in the face of the theory that if criminals want a gun they'll get one from the black market. The evidence I showed, plus this case, goes to show that it's either easier or worth the risk to still try and obtain one "legally" rather than heading to the black market.

In fairness, it was Ranb or BStrong or some other level headed pro-gun person on this forum who really first brought this issue to light for me. It is just baffling that there is no followup, even if mens rea is hard to prove.

That being said, the drug question is the only difficult part of this. But, I think this discordance between public impression and federal law over marijuana is a short term thing. We need to fix the marijuana issue, not break background checks.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:43 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
In fairness, it was Ranb or BStrong or some other level headed pro-gun person on this forum who really first brought this issue to light for me. It is just baffling that there is no followup, even if mens rea is hard to prove.
I am extremely dumb when it comes to guns. I poke the bear a lot with Ranb and probably have with BStrong as well. They're generally the two that make the most sense. I've never heard of these forms before, by name, but I'm shocked at how leisurely they're apparently circumvented.

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
That being said, the drug question is the only difficult part of this. But, I think this discordance between public impression and federal law over marijuana is a short term thing. We need to fix the marijuana issue, not break background checks.
In this case, even without the weed, the kid grew mushrooms and ate them on a daily basis. So the drug question would have been a lie even if weed were nationally decriminalized or legalized.
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:44 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I'm zero percent shocked by the complete and blatant hypocrisy.
I'm baffled too why people are sticking up for an enabler of a mass shooter.

While it's true he wouldn't have gotten in trouble if his friend hadn't committed mass murder, his friend did commit mass murder.

Just like you can drive buzzed every night and get away with it. But as soon as you get in a wreck, the hammer falls like a ton of bricks. No fair!
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Old 13th August 2019, 02:48 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm baffled too why people are sticking up for an enabler of a mass shooter.

While it's true he wouldn't have gotten in trouble if his friend hadn't committed mass murder, his friend did commit mass murder.

Just like you can drive buzzed every night and get away with it. But as soon as you get in a wreck, the hammer falls like a ton of bricks. No fair!
The part that would throw up red flags for me in any circumstance would have been the body armor. I seriously don't care if it's legal, neat looking, or someone just wants it for fun. I would take a long hard look at a friend of mine if he asked me to buy him body armor.

Clips and bullets are for shooting, and I could mentally shrug that off if I had a buddy that likes shooting. The armor; however, means that you think you're going to be shot at. Why else would you need body armor if you weren't going to be shot at?

Honest questions: Do people at shooting ranges wear body armor? Do avid shooters generally wear armor when they're out doing avid shooter type things?
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:00 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
In this case, even without the weed, the kid grew mushrooms and ate them on a daily basis. So the drug question would have been a lie even if weed were nationally decriminalized or legalized.
What's weird to me is doing mushrooms daily sounds like a good way to utterly lose their effectiveness. These days if I smoke weed it absolutely lives up to its classification as a mild hallucinogen. Plus, my short-term memory is obliterated for an hour or so. It's because I hardly ever do it. With daily use it becomes much less effective, and I thought this was especially true for genuine hallucinogens. Tolerance develops, and dissipates, pretty quickly.

Of course in a case like this if they can get someone on a technicality they will. Apparently lying on government forms rarely comes back to bite people - but why is it wrong that sometimes it does? Might give the next person pause about lying during a background check.

At times I've wanted to try to buy a weapon just to see if a decades-old felony that has been "set aside" would get me flagged, but my understanding was that even trying could be illegal. Technically it's as if I was never charged, but records can't truly be expunged if they live somewhere online.
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Old 13th August 2019, 03:17 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The part that would throw up red flags for me in any circumstance would have been the body armor. I seriously don't care if it's legal, neat looking, or someone just wants it for fun. I would take a long hard look at a friend of mine if he asked me to buy him body armor.

Clips and bullets are for shooting, and I could mentally shrug that off if I had a buddy that likes shooting. The armor; however, means that you think you're going to be shot at. Why else would you need body armor if you weren't going to be shot at?

Honest questions: Do people at shooting ranges wear body armor? Do avid shooters generally wear armor when they're out doing avid shooter type things?
I wonder too. That would be an odd request. But I don't know what's common with hobbyists.
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Old 13th August 2019, 10:15 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Honest questions: Do people at shooting ranges wear body armor? Do avid shooters generally wear armor when they're out doing avid shooter type things?

Do shoppers at Walmart wear body armor? Would it be a good idea to do so?
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Old 14th August 2019, 03:13 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It is prosecuted. You not hearing about something doesn't mean it doesn't take place. I found that in about 2 seconds. That also took place about 4 months ago, not some outdated article.
Of course that isn't the part that they are charging here. I want to see the mass charges against those using legal pot in states who buy guns. THey are breaking the law by buying pot and need to be locked up.
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Old 14th August 2019, 03:16 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
In fairness, it was Ranb or BStrong or some other level headed pro-gun person on this forum who really first brought this issue to light for me. It is just baffling that there is no followup, even if mens rea is hard to prove.

That being said, the drug question is the only difficult part of this. But, I think this discordance between public impression and federal law over marijuana is a short term thing. We need to fix the marijuana issue, not break background checks.
I don't want to break background checks but I question the individual question, as once again it is criminalizing drug use instead of treating it as a medical issue. And from the sounds of this guys drug use it fits in with what I am comfortable being legal and not taking away someone's rights.
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Old 14th August 2019, 03:18 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
What's weird to me is doing mushrooms daily sounds like a good way to utterly lose their effectiveness.
Except as people have debated them as an antidepressant, but if course any antidepressant use should bar people from gun ownership permanently as well I guess.
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Old 14th August 2019, 03:19 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Do shoppers at Walmart wear body armor? Would it be a good idea to do so?
Yes see the second amendment guy on his shopping trip.
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Old 14th August 2019, 06:07 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
At times I've wanted to try to buy a weapon just to see if a decades-old felony that has been "set aside" would get me flagged, but my understanding was that even trying could be illegal. Technically it's as if I was never charged, but records can't truly be expunged if they live somewhere online.
This part varies state to state. I live in North Dakota and have a felony from 20 years, and have no issues getting a gun. It's perfectly legal here to get a gun if your felony is over 10 years old, even if it's violent. The only thing that stops you from getting a gun is a domestic assault conviction. If you've plead guilty to domestic assault you can never own a gun again.

Also in North Dakota you can't have anything expunged. Once you plead guilty to a felony it's there for life. The gun laws might be that way because of the inability to get it expunged, I'm not sure.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:02 AM   #264
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'No Blame?' ABC News finds 36 cases invoking 'Trump' in connection with violence, threats, alleged assaults.

Originally Posted by ABC News
President Donald Trump has repeatedly refused to accept any responsibility for inciting violence in American communities, dismissing critics who have pointed to his rhetoric as a potential source of inspiration for some citizens acting on even long-held beliefs of bigotry and hate.

"I think my rhetoric brings people together," he said last week, four days after a 21-year-old allegedly posted an anti-immigrant screed online and then allegedly opened fire at a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, killing 22 and injuring dozens of others.

But a nationwide review conducted by ABC News has identified at least 36 criminal cases where Trump was invoked in direct connection with violent acts, threats of violence or allegations of assault.

In nine cases, perpetrators hailed Trump in the midst or immediate aftermath of physically attacking innocent victims. In another 10 cases, perpetrators cheered or defended Trump while taunting or threatening others. And in another 10 cases, Trump and his rhetoric were cited in court to explain a defendant's violent or threatening behavior.

Seven cases involved violent or threatening acts perpetrated in defiance of Trump, with many of them targeting Trump's allies in Congress. But the vast majority of the cases -- 29 of the 36 -- reflect someone echoing presidential rhetoric, not protesting it.

ABC News could not find a single criminal case filed in federal or state court where an act of violence or threat was made in the name of President Barack Obama or President George W. Bush.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:40 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I don't want to break background checks but I question the individual question, as once again it is criminalizing drug use instead of treating it as a medical issue. And from the sounds of this guys drug use it fits in with what I am comfortable being legal and not taking away someone's rights.
Then change the law. Seriously.

As a society we have decided that people who use illegal drugs should not be allowed to buy firearms. It seems like a very ******* low bar. I think it should be higher. Much higher. I think there should be more hoops to jump through before buying a firearm and this should be only the first in a series. But, if you think it is too high a bar then go out and lobby for illegal drug use to be removed from the form.
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Old 14th August 2019, 07:42 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Originally Posted by President Dip ****
I think my rhetoric brings people together
He's not entirely wrong here. The bulk of the US has come together to show how much they despise Trump.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:05 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
He's not entirely wrong here. The bulk of the US has come together to show how much they despise Trump.
Yes, he's brought them together into two tribes, with no possibility of reconciliation. But that has been the right-wing strategy for decades, with the intent of ending up with the bigger tribe. We'll see if electing a thoroughly ignorant and incompetent racist with serious mental health issues was a tactical blunder.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:06 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
As a society we have decided that people who use illegal drugs should not be allowed to buy firearms. It seems like a very ******* low bar.
No we didn’t. The state decided that. Society didn’t decide ****.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:11 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
I'm baffled too why people are sticking up for an enabler of a mass shooter.
Here's what bugs me about it: The existence of the weed/shrooms is what is landing this guy in jail. The distribution of weapons is just a side issue. The problem is that this is going to give people the impression that the system is working as intended, when the system is extremely stupid. If we want to curtail the flow of firearms, then having silly little "gotchya" questions on the form is one of the dumbest ways of accomplishing that goal.

It's like making a law against jay walking as a means of curtailing bank robberies, because sometimes bank robbers run across the street. Just make a law against robbery instead.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:14 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
Here's what bugs me about it: The existence of the weed/shrooms is what is landing this guy in jail. The distribution of weapons is just a side issue. The problem is that this is going to give people the impression that the system is working as intended, when the system is extremely stupid. If we want to curtail the flow of firearms, then having silly little "gotchya" questions on the form is one of the dumbest ways of accomplishing that goal.

It's like making a law against jay walking as a means of curtailing bank robberies, because sometimes bank robbers run across the street. Just make a law against robbery instead.
We shouldn't be able to ask people if they do drugs on a federal form to acquire a firearm? I see this as the system working as intended. I see all of the cases where people don't get arrested or charged for lying on a federal form as the system not working as intended.

Originally Posted by Tony View Post
No we didn’t. The state decided that. Society didn’t decide ****.
The people vote in the representatives.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:15 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
No we didn’t. The state decided that. Society didn’t decide ****.
We the people . . .
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:22 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
No we didn’t. The state decided that. Society didn’t decide ****.
Pretty sure "the state" isn't some sort of alien conclave.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:32 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Then change the law. Seriously.

As a society we have decided that people who use illegal drugs should not be allowed to buy firearms. It seems like a very ******* low bar. I think it should be higher. Much higher. I think there should be more hoops to jump through before buying a firearm and this should be only the first in a series. But, if you think it is too high a bar then go out and lobby for illegal drug use to be removed from the form.
And yet we don't prosecute that ever. Except here because the optics are right.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:34 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
The people vote in the representatives.
Exactly they knew they hated Mexicans and so they got pot outlawed it is really simple, I mean they didn't listen to the investigatory commissions then because they wanted to go after Hispanics why shouldn't racism be a good reason for anything and everything?

This is just a victory in the war on the darkies.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:36 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We the people . . .
Exactly we the people hate mexicans and evidence therefor pot is illegal. Simple and just.

https://www.history.com/news/why-the...ijuana-illegal

Really if we were trying to use science we would ban anyone who drinks alcohol ever from gun ownership.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:38 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Pretty sure "the state" isn't some sort of alien conclave.
It is for the Xargax Collective on Rigel VI. But the newly elected Hierophant promises to devolve power from the Lavender Council to the regional unities.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:39 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And yet we don't prosecute that ever. Except here because the optics are right.
Careful reading will lead you to my posts that lament the fact that these cases are not prosecuted more vigorously. Please don't imply otherwise.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:40 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
We the people . . .
...is BS.
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:41 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly we the people hate mexicans and evidence therefor pot is illegal. Simple and just.

https://www.history.com/news/why-the...ijuana-illegal

Really if we were trying to use science we would ban anyone who drinks alcohol ever from gun ownership.
What we do as a state is neither simple or just because we do it. Yet, we can not ignore that it is "us" that is "the state".
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Old 14th August 2019, 08:42 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
...is BS.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,
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