Religious Fanatics

Fellow Traveler · 21st January 2019, 10:17 AM

Science has been working with Religion as a constant drag on the necessary interchange of findings. As an example I was talking with a very intelligent small town man who goes to church faithfully. He wanted to clear up a question I might have regarding the book of Genesis. He said obviously something was awry with the story of Cain and Abel; that after murdering Abel Cain could not have found a wife in distant land as his people were the first. He gave me a sincere stare and said "Cain had to marry an Ape". I had to work hard on a straight face. That was funny but at least he saw something wrong with the biblical account.

MRC_Hans · 21st January 2019, 12:23 PM

Well, define 'ape'.

Hans

MRC_Hans · 23rd January 2019, 08:09 AM

Well, seriously ....

In general, Christians have no problem reconciling with science. The majority do not expect OT legends to be the literal truth in any way.

Hard-core Bible followers of various kinds do have a problem, which most solve by rejecting any unpleasant scientific facts.

Hans

dudalb · 25th January 2019, 04:05 PM

IMHO fanaticism is not a issue of belief, no matter how stupid the b eliefs might be, but one of behavior.

MRC_Hans · 26th January 2019, 03:55 AM

I tend to agree. You can find fanatics on any subject, but there are some belief systems that seem more fertile grounds for fanatism than others.

Hans

applecorped · 3rd February 2019, 05:40 AM

Is this the global warming thread?

Puppycow · 18th February 2019, 05:33 PM

Do they think we are all descended from Cain and this "ape" he married?

I'm just trying to understand what he believes.

dann · 19th February 2019, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Well, define 'ape'.

Well, at least according to Wikipedia, it includes us:

Quote:

This article is about the branch of primates which includes humans.
Ape (Wikipedia)

dann · 19th February 2019, 06:39 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Do they think we are all descended from Cain and this "ape" he married?

I'm just trying to understand what he believes.

He is obviously in the process of distancing himself from a literal reading of the Bible.

Craig B · 20th March 2019, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by MRC_Hans

Well, seriously ....

In general, Christians have no problem reconciling with science. The majority do not expect OT legends to be the literal truth in any way.

Hard-core Bible followers of various kinds do have a problem, which most solve by rejecting any unpleasant scientific facts.

Hans

Do Christians reconcile with science only by rejecting the literal truth of OT legends. What about NT legends like the Virgin Birth, raising of people from death, and suchlike? Can they be reconciled with science?

dann · 22nd March 2019, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Craig B

Do Christians reconcile with science only by rejecting the literal truth of OT legends. What about NT legends like the Virgin Birth, raising of people from death, and suchlike? Can they be reconciled with science?

No, they can't. The majority of the Danish Christians that I know, some of them members of Dansk Skeptica, wouldn't dream of trying to reconcile NT legends with science. They don't believe in the the immaculate conception, raising people from death or even changing water into wine. Remember that we have clergymen who don't even believe in God (Wikipedia):

Quote:

he received a lot of media attention in Denmark for publicly stating disbelief in an interventionist creator God.
(...)
In the spring of 2003, Thorkild Grosbøll published the book En Sten i Skoen (A Stone in the Shoe), resulting in very limited reactions, though he wrote in it that [hilite]he does not believe in God[/HIILITE]. On May 23, 2003, the Danish newspaper Weekendavisen published an interview with Grosbøll, in which he repeated statements from his book, in particular that he does not believe in a creating or upholding God.
(...)
On July 23, 2003, Thorkild Grosbøll was allowed to continue his service as a parish priest in Taarbæk, subject to special supervision by the bishop.
On June 3, 2004, Grosbøll was instructed to resign no later than June 4, or he would be suspended. On June 7, 2004, the chairman of the elected parish council in Taarbæk, Lars Heilesen, informed the parish about the situation in the church in Taarbæk. On June 10, 2004, Rebel again relieved Thorkild Grosbøll of his duties.
During all these events, the parish community in Taarbæk stood by Thorkild Grosbøll. There was an animated public debate, occasionally fuelled by statements from Grosbøll like: "God belongs in the past. He is actually so old fashioned that I am baffled by modern people believing in his existence. I am thoroughly fed up with empty words about miracles and eternal life." At the same time he maintained that the bishop and the press misunderstood him, taking quotes from his sermons out of context.
(...)
On May 20, 2006 Grosbøll confirmed his priestly vows before Lindhardt in the presence of witnesses and by his signature, and was allowed to serve again as parish priest, but was instructed not to talk to the press.

(And, yes, we even have a bishop called Rebel!!!

)
Nowadays Grosbøll's retired, but according to this article by a more fundamentalist Danish Christian, Grosbøll is still teaching the atheist 'gospel'.
In my translation:

Quote:

TG calls himself a Christian atheist. (...) He's upset by the Danish Church because it is "committing idolatry with the creed".
(...)
Grosbøll claims that about half of all Danish vicars (...) don't believe in God.
(...)
TG also claims that a quarter of all vicars "TG hævder også, at en fjerdedel af præsterne er "completely obscured in the head and take everything literally." He obviously has not respect for those.
Grosbøll is not the biggest problem (Indre Mission, Feb. 22, 2019)

This is why I always stress that in Denmark even the Church of Denmark (Wikipedia) has become secularized. [/i]"As of 1 January 2019, 74.7% of the population of Denmark are members,"[/i] but only a minority believe in God and a very small minority takes anything in the Christian Bible literally. They are cultural Christians who may think that you should always ask yourself what Jesus would do - except for the making-up-fairy-tales-about-miracles part!

(And our Christian skeptics are usually the first to criticize people who believe in weeping Madonna statuettes or creationism! And they love for instance Zola's adage about Lourdes and the wooden legs!

https://www.facebook.com/skeptica.dk...8753734887837? )

I can recommend Phil Zuckerman's book Society without God. He spent some time in Denmark and Sweden researching the phenomenon.

ETA: Ever heard of this guy, the Pentecostal American Bob Bakker?

Craig B · 11th April 2019, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by dann

(And, yes, we even have a bishop called Rebel!!!

)

The Bishop's forenames are even more remarkable: Lise-Lotte. Yes, you even have a bishop called Lise-Lotte. There are none of that name in the Church of England (or of Rome!)

dann · 20th April 2019, 01:34 PM

The name is quite common in Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland: Lise Lotte, Lise-Lotte or Liselotte.
It is not surprising that there aren't any Catholic bishops called Lise-Lotte, but I didn't know that the CoE didn't have female bishops.
In addition to Lise-Lotte Rebel, Denmark has one Tine and two Mariannes; and Greenland has a Sofie: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskop

Craig B · 24th April 2019, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by dann

The name is quite common in Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland: Lise Lotte, Lise-Lotte or Liselotte.
It is not surprising that there aren't any Catholic bishops called Lise-Lotte, but I didn't know that the CoE didn't have female bishops.
In addition to Lise-Lotte Rebel, Denmark has one Tine and two Mariannes; and Greenland has a Sofie: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskop

Im a bit out of date, because I'm not in England and not keeping up. The First female bishop in the C of E was consecrated in 2015. Her forename is Libby. By 2017 there were ten female bishops, out of a total of 115.

dann · 28th April 2019, 05:56 AM

In Denmark (Greenland, Faroe Islands), it's five of a total of only 12. The first one was appointed in 1995.

Roboramma · 19th May 2019, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by dann

In Denmark (Greenland, Faroe Islands), it's five of a total of only 12. The first one was appointed in 1995.

That's pretty cool.

21st January 2019, 10:17 AM	#1
Fellow Traveler Master Poster Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 2,890	Religious Fanatics Science has been working with Religion as a constant drag on the necessary interchange of findings. As an example I was talking with a very intelligent small town man who goes to church faithfully. He wanted to clear up a question I might have regarding the book of Genesis. He said obviously something was awry with the story of Cain and Abel; that after murdering Abel Cain could not have found a wife in distant land as his people were the first. He gave me a sincere stare and said "Cain had to marry an Ape". I had to work hard on a straight face. That was funny but at least he saw something wrong with the biblical account.
	__________________ Trouble walks in on small delicate feet and grows

21st January 2019, 12:23 PM	#2
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,339	Well, define 'ape'. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

23rd January 2019, 08:09 AM	#3
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,339	Well, seriously .... In general, Christians have no problem reconciling with science. The majority do not expect OT legends to be the literal truth in any way. Hard-core Bible followers of various kinds do have a problem, which most solve by rejecting any unpleasant scientific facts. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

25th January 2019, 04:05 PM	#4
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 49,965	IMHO fanaticism is not a issue of belief, no matter how stupid the b eliefs might be, but one of behavior.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

26th January 2019, 03:55 AM	#5
MRC_Hans Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 23,339	I tend to agree. You can find fanatics on any subject, but there are some belief systems that seem more fertile grounds for fanatism than others. Hans
	__________________ Experience is an excellent teacher, but she sends large bills.

3rd February 2019, 05:40 AM	#6
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145	Is this the global warming thread?
applecorped Banned Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 20,145

18th February 2019, 05:33 PM	#7
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,589	Do they think we are all descended from Cain and this "ape" he married? I'm just trying to understand what he believes.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

19th February 2019, 06:37 AM	#8
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,287	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Well, define 'ape'. Well, at least according to Wikipedia, it includes us: Quote: This article is about the branch of primates which includes humans. Ape (Wikipedia)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th February 2019, 06:39 AM	#9
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,287	Originally Posted by Puppycow Do they think we are all descended from Cain and this "ape" he married? I'm just trying to understand what he believes. He is obviously in the process of distancing himself from a literal reading of the Bible.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

20th March 2019, 04:50 PM	#10
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by MRC_Hans Well, seriously .... In general, Christians have no problem reconciling with science. The majority do not expect OT legends to be the literal truth in any way. Hard-core Bible followers of various kinds do have a problem, which most solve by rejecting any unpleasant scientific facts. Hans Do Christians reconcile with science only by rejecting the literal truth of OT legends. What about NT legends like the Virgin Birth, raising of people from death, and suchlike? Can they be reconciled with science?

22nd March 2019, 11:29 AM	#11
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,287	Originally Posted by Craig B Do Christians reconcile with science only by rejecting the literal truth of OT legends. What about NT legends like the Virgin Birth, raising of people from death, and suchlike? Can they be reconciled with science? No, they can't. The majority of the Danish Christians that I know, some of them members of Dansk Skeptica, wouldn't dream of trying to reconcile NT legends with science. They don't believe in the the immaculate conception, raising people from death or even changing water into wine. Remember that we have clergymen who don't even believe in God (Wikipedia): Quote: he received a lot of media attention in Denmark for publicly stating disbelief in an interventionist creator God. (...) In the spring of 2003, Thorkild Grosbøll published the book En Sten i Skoen (A Stone in the Shoe), resulting in very limited reactions, though he wrote in it that [hilite]he does not believe in God[/HIILITE]. On May 23, 2003, the Danish newspaper Weekendavisen published an interview with Grosbøll, in which he repeated statements from his book, in particular that he does not believe in a creating or upholding God. (...) On July 23, 2003, Thorkild Grosbøll was allowed to continue his service as a parish priest in Taarbæk, subject to special supervision by the bishop. On June 3, 2004, Grosbøll was instructed to resign no later than June 4, or he would be suspended. On June 7, 2004, the chairman of the elected parish council in Taarbæk, Lars Heilesen, informed the parish about the situation in the church in Taarbæk. On June 10, 2004, Rebel again relieved Thorkild Grosbøll of his duties. During all these events, the parish community in Taarbæk stood by Thorkild Grosbøll. There was an animated public debate, occasionally fuelled by statements from Grosbøll like: "God belongs in the past. He is actually so old fashioned that I am baffled by modern people believing in his existence. I am thoroughly fed up with empty words about miracles and eternal life." At the same time he maintained that the bishop and the press misunderstood him, taking quotes from his sermons out of context. (...) On May 20, 2006 Grosbøll confirmed his priestly vows before Lindhardt in the presence of witnesses and by his signature, and was allowed to serve again as parish priest, but was instructed not to talk to the press. (And, yes, we even have a bishop called Rebel!!! ) Nowadays Grosbøll's retired, but according to this article by a more fundamentalist Danish Christian, Grosbøll is still teaching the atheist 'gospel'. In my translation: Quote: TG calls himself a Christian atheist. (...) He's upset by the Danish Church because it is "committing idolatry with the creed". (...) Grosbøll claims that about half of all Danish vicars (...) don't believe in God. (...) TG also claims that a quarter of all vicars "TG hævder også, at en fjerdedel af præsterne er "completely obscured in the head and take everything literally." He obviously has not respect for those. Grosbøll is not the biggest problem (Indre Mission, Feb. 22, 2019) This is why I always stress that in Denmark even the Church of Denmark (Wikipedia) has become secularized. [/i]"As of 1 January 2019, 74.7% of the population of Denmark are members,"[/i] but only a minority believe in God and a very small minority takes anything in the Christian Bible literally. They are cultural Christians who may think that you should always ask yourself what Jesus would do - except for the making-up-fairy-tales-about-miracles part! (And our Christian skeptics are usually the first to criticize people who believe in weeping Madonna statuettes or creationism! And they love for instance Zola's adage about Lourdes and the wooden legs! https://www.facebook.com/skeptica.dk...8753734887837? ) I can recommend Phil Zuckerman's book Society without God. He spent some time in Denmark and Sweden researching the phenomenon. ETA: Ever heard of this guy, the Pentecostal American Bob Bakker?
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 22nd March 2019 at 11:38 AM.

11th April 2019, 03:44 PM	#12
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by dann (And, yes, we even have a bishop called Rebel!!! ) The Bishop's forenames are even more remarkable: Lise-Lotte. Yes, you even have a bishop called Lise-Lotte. There are none of that name in the Church of England (or of Rome!)

20th April 2019, 01:34 PM	#13
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,287	The name is quite common in Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland: Lise Lotte, Lise-Lotte or Liselotte. It is not surprising that there aren't any Catholic bishops called Lise-Lotte, but I didn't know that the CoE didn't have female bishops. In addition to Lise-Lotte Rebel, Denmark has one Tine and two Mariannes; and Greenland has a Sofie: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskop
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

24th April 2019, 06:25 AM	#14
Craig B Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 22,841	Originally Posted by dann The name is quite common in Scandinavia, Germany and Switzerland: Lise Lotte, Lise-Lotte or Liselotte. It is not surprising that there aren't any Catholic bishops called Lise-Lotte, but I didn't know that the CoE didn't have female bishops. In addition to Lise-Lotte Rebel, Denmark has one Tine and two Mariannes; and Greenland has a Sofie: https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskop Im a bit out of date, because I'm not in England and not keeping up. The First female bishop in the C of E was consecrated in 2015. Her forename is Libby. By 2017 there were ten female bishops, out of a total of 115.

28th April 2019, 05:56 AM	#15
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,287	In Denmark (Greenland, Faroe Islands), it's five of a total of only 12. The first one was appointed in 1995.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th May 2019, 06:12 AM	#16
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,146	Originally Posted by dann In Denmark (Greenland, Faroe Islands), it's five of a total of only 12. The first one was appointed in 1995. That's pretty cool.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov