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Old 21st October 2019, 01:45 AM   #4841
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
ok, we will add slavery to things you are not only wrong about, but are in a different universe.
People in parallel worlds don't use money but in hell nothing is free, they troc. When using money is a practice for hell. Voluntary work sometimes used is a practice for heaven.

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Old 21st October 2019, 04:52 AM   #4842
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People in parallel worlds don't use money but in hell nothing is free, they troc. When using money is a practice for hell. Voluntary work sometimes used is a practice for heaven.
But weve agreed that it's religion that we must abolish due to how much child abuse they engage in. I've posted dozens of articles to prove it. Religion turns its sycophants' brains to pudding and makes them believe weird crap.

We can use money to abolish religion. Money is good, religion is evil as has been proven.
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Old 21st October 2019, 08:16 AM   #4843
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
People in parallel worlds don't use money but in hell nothing is free, they troc. When using money is a practice for hell. Voluntary work sometimes used is a practice for heaven.
Well, again, your definition of Voluntary has always been suspect. I'd ask for some sort of proof that hell has a monetary system, but we both know from what dark recess you are pulling these facts.

Quit trying to kill billions of people. Thanks.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 03:08 PM   #4844
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
I'd ask for some sort of proof that hell has a monetary system,
The only world using money is this world, in hell they use troc, nothing is free while in heaven everything is free of charge and work is voluntary.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 06:48 PM   #4845
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only world using money is this world, in hell they use troc, nothing is free while in heaven everything is free of charge and work is voluntary.
I think you missed the part where evidence was asked for. I'm pretty sure fantasy won't meet the criteria.

Try again.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 08:57 PM   #4846
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
I think you missed the part where evidence was asked for. I'm pretty sure fantasy won't meet the criteria.

Try again.
It seems to be evident that you don't know the difference between what is good or bad and the devil and God. this is the contrary.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 09:17 PM   #4847
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It seems to be evident that you don't know the difference between what is good or bad and the devil and God. this is the contrary.
We both know that religion is bad. See all the examples I've posted of the religious abusing children. Why don't you say anything about the religious abusing children, Gaetan?

We both know that money is good. We both use it.
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Old 22nd October 2019, 10:48 PM   #4848
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only world using money is this world, in hell they use troc, nothing is free while in heaven everything is free of charge and work is voluntary.
That's not necessarily true. the Bible says to do good works and store up your treasures in Heaven. That could mean that you work now and God rewards you with gifts in Heaven. It's said that the roads of Heaven are paved with Gold and Silver.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 11:58 AM   #4849
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
That's not necessarily true. the Bible says to do good works and store up your treasures in Heaven. That could mean that you work now and God rewards you with gifts in Heaven. It's said that the roads of Heaven are paved with Gold and Silver.
Where did you see it? Verses. I never saw it in the gospels but the contrary.

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Old 23rd October 2019, 12:30 PM   #4850
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only world using money is this world, in hell they use troc, nothing is free while in heaven everything is free of charge and work is voluntary.
Your imagination, and misreadings of various texts, are not evidence.

Yes, in heaven everything would be free as it is a fantasy in any case. Same with hell.
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Old 23rd October 2019, 07:26 PM   #4851
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The only world using money is this world, in hell they use troc, nothing is free while in heaven everything is free of charge and work is voluntary.
Where did you see this? Which verses? Or are you making it all up again?
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Old 24th October 2019, 12:28 AM   #4852
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It seems to be evident that you don't know the difference between what is good or bad and the devil and God. this is the contrary.
The Bible doesnt say that money is bad. The Bible cautions against the love of money but not money itself.
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Old 24th October 2019, 03:52 AM   #4853
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The Bible doesnt say that money is bad. The Bible cautions against the love of money but not money itself.
The reason why Jesus told the 72 to not carry money is not because the love of money but because that trading is evil.
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Old 24th October 2019, 04:18 AM   #4854
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The reason why Jesus told the 72 to not carry money is not because the love of money but because that trading is evil.
Says who? You're just religiously making crap up again.

Why are the religous so dishonest?
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Old 26th October 2019, 08:10 AM   #4855
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The reason why Jesus told the 72 to not carry money is not because the love of money but because that trading is evil.
However, he instructed them to trade their ministries and labors for whatever the homeowner would want to give. That's still "trading" and by your assertion "evil". Why do you claim Jesus told them to do "evil"?
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Old 26th October 2019, 10:08 AM   #4856
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
However, he instructed them to trade their ministries and labors for whatever the homeowner would want to give. That's still "trading" and by your assertion "evil". Why do you claim Jesus told them to do "evil"?
The difference is in the obligation between liberty and being in prison. When you receive a service and take a good in a world of no money you don't pay. When you work for your neighbour it is voluntary you receive no charge.

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Old 26th October 2019, 10:45 AM   #4857
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is in the obligation between liberty and being in prison. When you receive a service and take a good in a world of no money you don't pay. When you work for your neighbour it is voluntary you receive no charge.
But nobody would be forced to work, right?

And everything would be free so everyone can have as much as they want of anything, right?
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Old 26th October 2019, 01:15 PM   #4858
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is in the obligation between liberty and being in prison. When you receive a service and take a good in a world of no money you don't pay. When you work for your neighbour it is voluntary you receive no charge.
By your own assertions Christ obligated them to minister and work for the homeowner. You claim all are obligated to do such works to get into heaven. Heck you even assert that if people want "a better life" in your "world of no money" they are still obliged to work.

"When you work for your neighbour" and "it is voluntary" you don't accept payment. By your own assertions Christ obligated them to accept whatever payment was offered, like food and housing. Simply not receiving pay is different form not accepting pay that is offered. They were instructed to accept particular pay as offered.

As I stated in your "world of no money" I'd just be working on our own house. I would both "receive a service and take a good" as well as pay for them by providing that very service and finished goods to ourselves. In your "world of no money" if you don't pay for the goods and services you take then someone else has. Why do you want to steal from people?

In fact for someone in your "world of no money" who works all day would likely find stocks and resources depleted by those who didn't work all day and spent their time just acquiring said goods and services.

So again how are finite resources allocated in your "world of no money"
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Old 26th October 2019, 05:26 PM   #4859
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
By your own assertions Christ obligated them to minister and work for the homeowner. You claim all are obligated to do such works to get into heaven. Heck you even assert that if people want "a better life" in your "world of no money" they are still obliged to work.

"When you work for your neighbour" and "it is voluntary" you don't accept payment. By your own assertions Christ obligated them to accept whatever payment was offered, like food and housing. Simply not receiving pay is different form not accepting pay that is offered. They were instructed to accept particular pay as offered.

As I stated in your "world of no money" I'd just be working on our own house. I would both "receive a service and take a good" as well as pay for them by providing that very service and finished goods to ourselves. In your "world of no money" if you don't pay for the goods and services you take then someone else has. Why do you want to steal from people?

In fact for someone in your "world of no money" who works all day would likely find stocks and resources depleted by those who didn't work all day and spent their time just acquiring said goods and services.

So again how are finite resources allocated in your "world of no money"
In a world of no money it is liberty because there is no obligation to work. You do it voluntarily. When a guy need a house, you and others volunteers build it without being paid and the guy do some work for his neighbour for free of charge but he doesn't need to do so, there is no obligation. In a world of money there is obligation to pay the workers.
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Old 26th October 2019, 07:01 PM   #4860
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a world of no money it is liberty because there is no obligation to work. You do it voluntarily. When a guy need a house, you and others volunteers build it without being paid and the guy do some work for his neighbour for free of charge but he doesn't need to do so, there is no obligation. In a world of money there is obligation to pay the workers.
So nobody needs to work? And they can have everything they want for free?
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Old 27th October 2019, 01:04 AM   #4861
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The reason why Jesus told the 72 to not carry money is not because the love of money but because that trading is evil.
Gaetan, I know you can't show it, but where does the Bible say that trading ie evil?

Jesus told the 72 what? Where did he say not to carry money?

Is lying and making up stuff a part of your no money world?
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Old 27th October 2019, 01:07 AM   #4862
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a world of no money it is liberty because there is no obligation to work. You do it voluntarily. When a guy need a house, you and others volunteers build it without being paid and the guy do some work for his neighbour for free of charge but he doesn't need to do so, there is no obligation. In a world of money there is obligation to pay the workers.
What if a guy keeps "building houses" and asks you to keep working for "free". So you keep working for free and the "guy" gives all the other workers food and supplies for their efforts but gives you nothing. Will you keep working for free or will you do something else like finding your own food?
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:51 AM   #4863
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a world of no money it is liberty because there is no obligation to work. You do it voluntarily. When a guy need a house, you and others volunteers build it without being paid and the guy do some work for his neighbour for free of charge but he doesn't need to do so, there is no obligation. In a world of money there is obligation to pay the workers.
You are still ignoring the deficit of hours worked. You are going to extract more hours worked from the system than you are putting in. Resources will not be put into the market, will be hoarded by those doing the work, and not be put into the market for the lazy to, in short, steal.

Take electric cars for example. Right now, you are unwilling to put in the necessary work (hours) to earn one. But you would extract one out of the system. You are the best example of why your system can not work. You would instantly put your system into an hours deficit from which it will not recover.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:59 AM   #4864
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In a world of no money it is liberty because there is no obligation to work.
You have claimed that people would still 'work for a better life'. If that 'better life' requires people to work then working is not voluntary. The better life they want obligates them to work, however still can't guarantee they will get it. Heck, just survival obligates people to work, with or without money. So your "world of no money" doesn't and can not alleviate that obligation. However, like most other things you just simply choose to ignore it.


Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You do it voluntarily. When a guy need a house, you and others volunteers build it without being paid and the guy do some work for his neighbour for free of charge but he doesn't need to do so, there is no obligation. In a world of money there is obligation to pay the workers.
The house is his payment, that he may not pay it back doesn't change the fact that he's already been paid. You haven't eliminated payment you've just put the payment before and unrelated to the actual performance of work. Again, this just makes it easier for you to deliberately ignore both.

Remember that better life you claimed people would still be working for? Well you just asserted one of your founding principles is that your "world of no money" is under no "obligation to pay the workers" that better life. Nor even just to permit them to survive. You can't even convince yourself of the viability of your "world of no money", how can you possibly expect to convince others?

Also who decides if materials should be used to build this guys house or something else, like say a school?

Again, how are resources allocated in your world of no money.

Heck, who wants a house built by a bunch of random schmoes anyway. Just for safety, suitability and survivability concerns construction needs to be regulated. That further limits the available labor and material pools.
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Old 27th October 2019, 05:59 PM   #4865
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
You have claimed that people would still 'work for a better life'. If that 'better life' requires people to work then working is not voluntary. The better life they want obligates them to work, however still can't guarantee they will get it. Heck, just survival obligates people to work, with or without money. So your "world of no money" doesn't and can not alleviate that obligation. However, like most other things you just simply choose to ignore it.




The house is his payment, that he may not pay it back doesn't change the fact that he's already been paid. You haven't eliminated payment you've just put the payment before and unrelated to the actual performance of work. Again, this just makes it easier for you to deliberately ignore both.

Remember that better life you claimed people would still be working for? Well you just asserted one of your founding principles is that your "world of no money" is under no "obligation to pay the workers" that better life. Nor even just to permit them to survive. You can't even convince yourself of the viability of your "world of no money", how can you possibly expect to convince others?

Also who decides if materials should be used to build this guys house or something else, like say a school?

Again, how are resources allocated in your world of no money.

Heck, who wants a house built by a bunch of random schmoes anyway. Just for safety, suitability and survivability concerns construction needs to be regulated. That further limits the available labor and material pools.
The difference is the obligation. You must pay for goods and services otherwise you get nothing. In the system of no money you don't have to.

Jesus Christ didn't get paid for healing and teaching, he took what they provide, food, shelter, ect.. We have to do the same. In the actual system he should get paid for healing and pay for shelter and food.
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Old 27th October 2019, 06:28 PM   #4866
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is the obligation. You must pay for goods and services otherwise you get nothing. In the system of no money you don't have to.

Jesus Christ didn't get paid for healing and teaching, he took what they provide, food, shelter, ect.. We have to do the same. In the actual system he should get paid for healing and pay for shelter and food.
So there is no obligation to work and you can have everything you want for free?

Why are the religious always so dishonest that they can't answer?
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Old 28th October 2019, 12:26 AM   #4867
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Jesus Christ didn't get paid for healing and teaching, he took what they provide, food, shelter, ect.. We have to do the same. In the actual system he should get paid for healing and pay for shelter and food.
Gaetan, Jesus was God in human form. He could live without money because he had the power to turn stones into bread. He managed to feed 5000 men with two fish and 5 loaves of bread.

The rest of us mortal men need to work job, and earn money so we can eat and have places to live. You yourself work, so you can pay your bills.

You're not making a good argument for a no money society.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:47 AM   #4868
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is the obligation. You must pay for goods and services otherwise you get nothing. In the system of no money you don't have to.
In either situation if people don't work there is nothing to get. Again, your claim of 'no obligation to pay' just means people can work under your "system of no money" and still not get anything.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Jesus Christ didn't get paid for healing and teaching,
So what?

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
he took what they provide, food, shelter, ect..
Ah, so he did get paid, he just got paid whatever "they provide".

Do please let us know when you can at least agree with just yourself.



Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
We have to do the same.
Nope.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
In the actual system he should get paid for healing and pay for shelter and food.
He did get paid, but just "what they provide", in "shelter and food". That said payment wasn't directly linked to the quantity or quality of the work preformed doesn't make it any less payment.

How long would he have hung around with out shelter or food? In fact your citations assert one of the instructions was if they don't open their house to you, move on. So shelter was instructed to be expected as the least payment
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Old 28th October 2019, 10:06 AM   #4869
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is the obligation. You must pay for goods and services otherwise you get nothing. In the system of no money you don't have to.

Jesus Christ didn't get paid for healing and teaching, he took what they provide, food, shelter, ect.. We have to do the same. In the actual system he should get paid for healing and pay for shelter and food.
The difference from fantasy and reality is that the resources Jesus was able to add to the system was effectively unlimited. Magic. This is not the same as the real world. Those resources have to come from something. From someone. Jesus could turn water into wine. So can man, but it takes vintners, laborers, and hours of effort. When you can flat out blink stuff into existence, then your fantasy would work. Until them it's going to take the sweat and effort of man.


Also, you ignore that you are the biggest problem in your plan. You want to extract out of the system an electric car. But you are unwilling to put in the effort to get one. Rather than correct your lack of effort, you want the world to blink one into existence. That can not happen. Nor will it happen, because most people understand that things aren't given, they are earned.
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Old 28th October 2019, 03:10 PM   #4870
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
In either situation if people don't work there is nothing to get. Again, your claim of 'no obligation to pay' just means people can work under your "system of no money" and still not get anything.



So what?



Ah, so he did get paid, he just got paid whatever "they provide".

Do please let us know when you can at least agree with just yourself.





Nope.



He did get paid, but just "what they provide", in "shelter and food". That said payment wasn't directly linked to the quantity or quality of the work preformed doesn't make it any less payment.

How long would he have hung around with out shelter or food? In fact your citations assert one of the instructions was if they don't open their house to you, move on. So shelter was instructed to be expected as the least payment
The difference is in the obligation, in the actual system of money you have to pay 1 dollar for a chocolate bar, in my system it is free of charge because people who made it work free of charge.
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Old 28th October 2019, 04:08 PM   #4871
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is in the obligation,
Again, your only difference in obligation is the lack of obligation to give those that do work anything.



Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
in the actual system of money you have to pay 1 dollar for a chocolate bar, in my system it is free of charge because people who made it work free of charge.
No then don't, they work with the expectation of being able to get things for that labor, like the chocolate bars they produce. By your own claims, they'ed be working for a better life. All you are doing is trying to remove any obligation of your "system" to actually meet any of those expectations of its workers.

Seems odd that given your apparent disdain for what you perceive as the exploitation of workers by the rich that you'd propose not only removing any obligation not to exploit them but also enable just about everyone to exploit those that do work.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:31 PM   #4872
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is in the obligation, in the actual system of money you have to pay 1 dollar for a chocolate bar, in my system it is free of charge because people who made it work free of charge.
Do you think it sounds insane when you keep repeating the same religious mantra despite being proven wrong every time?
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:54 PM   #4873
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Do you think it sounds insane when you keep repeating the same religious mantra despite being proven wrong every time?
The reason why the roman empire disappeared was because the use of money, Rome was build without money and destroyed by money.
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Old 28th October 2019, 05:55 PM   #4874
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The difference is in the obligation, in the actual system of money you have to pay 1 dollar for a chocolate bar, in my system it is free of charge because people who made it work free of charge.
The problem with many societies these days is there are too many people who don't work and they are supported by people who do.

If there is no requirement to work, more people will want to join the bunch that does not work but continues to consume goods and services.

Eventually, people will become resentful of those who don't work and soon enough, there won't be enough people working to support society.
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Old 28th October 2019, 06:10 PM   #4875
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The reason why the roman empire disappeared was because the use of money, Rome was build without money and destroyed by money.
Do you think it sounds insane when you make up crap that's so easily shown to be false?

What do you think of all those religous people who abuse children? Don't you think that religion is the greater priority to be abolished because of how evil it is?
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Old 29th October 2019, 01:13 AM   #4876
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
The problem with many societies these days is there are too many people who don't work and they are supported by people who do.

If there is no requirement to work, more people will want to join the bunch that does not work but continues to consume goods and services.

Eventually, people will become resentful of those who don't work and soon enough, there won't be enough people working to support society.
You don't understand human psychology, it is a pleasure to do voluntary work but it is not to work for the goal of money.
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Old 29th October 2019, 01:21 AM   #4877
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand human psychology, it is a pleasure to do voluntary work but it is not to work for the goal of money.
That is total ********. I enjoy my job. But even worse, you are advocating for a weird kind of slavery where one is obliged to perform a job that one doesn't even like.
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Old 29th October 2019, 01:46 AM   #4878
Gaetan
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
That is total ********. I enjoy my job.
I didn't say that all workers don't like the job they do, what i say is that they don't like to work if it is for the goal of money.
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Old 29th October 2019, 04:54 AM   #4879
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You don't understand human psychology, it is a pleasure to do voluntary work but it is not to work for the goal of money.
Do you think it sounds insane when someone claims to understand human psychology and always gets it exactly backwards?
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Old 29th October 2019, 05:01 AM   #4880
RoboTimbo
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Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
I didn't say that all workers don't like the job they do, what i say is that they don't like to work if it is for the goal of money.
The goal isn't for money, it's for the things that money can buy. They work for money so they can have a higher standard of living.

Are you saying that people won't have to work anymore since everything will be "free"? Or, if I choose to, I can have any job I want such as game player or super car test driver?

If you can't answer these questions, Gaetan, you must realize as much as everyone else does how badly you've lost.
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