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Old 18th September 2019, 06:41 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I agree it's a very good piece.
Indeed. Itís one of the best depictions of anguish, if not the best, ever.
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Old 19th September 2019, 03:40 AM   #282
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Today on BBC Radio 4 they repeated the In Our Time podcast about Picasso's Guernica.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07mdlx7

They skip through the Spanish Civil War at the beginning rather quickly which might seem rather blasť, but that is simply because that is not the main subject. (In Our Time covered it in 2003 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00548wn)

I did not know that the painting, 3.49 meters (11 ft 5 in) tall and 7.76 meters (25 ft 6 in) wide, was completed in only 7 weeks.

That is remarkably fast for an oil painting that size.
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Old 20th September 2019, 07:26 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes indeed absolutely grotesque. Could be used to torture someone if you locked them in a room with it.

How to recognize great art:

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Old 7th October 2019, 01:46 PM   #284
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In case anybody's got too much money:

Quote:
Fifty-five paintings by a chimpanzee -- whose works have been acquired by the likes of Pablo Picasso, Joan Mirů and the Duke of Edinburgh -- will go on sale at a London gallery in December, collectively priced at around £200,000 ($247,000).
Collection of paintings by famed chimp artist to go on sale for $250,000 (CNN, Oct. 7, 2019)
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Old 7th October 2019, 02:31 PM   #285
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Would love to be a fly on the wall when some critics discuss the meaning of the works and what the chimp was trying to say.
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Old 7th October 2019, 02:35 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In case anybody's got too much money:
I bet there is an elephant somewhere whose paintings are much more thoughtful and expressive, with specifically elephantine emotions on display, all ready to be thoroughly analyzed by experts.
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Old 7th October 2019, 03:41 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I bet there is an elephant somewhere whose paintings are much more thoughtful and expressive, with specifically elephantine emotions on display, all ready to be thoroughly analyzed by experts.
But if it's in the same room, nobody will want to address it.
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Old 7th October 2019, 03:51 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
But if it's in the same room, nobody will want to address it.
Excellent point.
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Old 7th October 2019, 04:02 PM   #289
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Now it might not be art interpretation or even trying to understand it, the case of Congo is interesting. Based on the short Wiki article, there seemed to be a creative and aesthetic process involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_(chimpanzee)

Interesting from an evolutionary sense of the word.
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Old 7th October 2019, 04:48 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Now it might not be art interpretation or even trying to understand it, the case of Congo is interesting. Based on the short Wiki article, there seemed to be a creative and aesthetic process involved.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_(chimpanzee)

Interesting from an evolutionary sense of the word.
BT, I couldn't get the link to work. I'll try again, it sounds interesting.
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Old 7th October 2019, 08:50 PM   #291
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Missing a ) at the end.

Here: Congo

Don't forget Bini the bunny, the only rabbit in the world who can paint with acrylic paints on canvas, can jump, dance and spin on command as well as comb and style human hair. Bini also loves basketball and holds a Guinness Book of World Records title for the most slam dunks by a rabbit in one minute. What will Bini do next?
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Old 8th October 2019, 05:14 AM   #292
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Sorry about the broken link and thanks Cheetah for fixing it.

I managed to find Desmond Morris's book "The Biology of Art" which goes into much more detail of his and other experiments.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...217981/page/n3
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:38 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Would love to be a fly on the wall when some critics discuss the meaning of the works and what the chimp was trying to say.

There's one critic doing so here:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

(Notice that the chimp masters the art to a degree where it doesn't even have to look at what it's painting!)
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Old 11th October 2019, 07:47 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by Belgian thought View Post
Sorry about the broken link and thanks Cheetah for fixing it.

I managed to find Desmond Morris's book "The Biology of Art" which goes into much more detail of his and other experiments.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...217981/page/n3
I have a few other of Morris' books -- thanks for pointing this one out. And I can download it!
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Old 11th October 2019, 01:47 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
There's one critic doing so here:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

(Notice that the chimp masters the art to a degree where it doesn't even have to look at what it's painting!)

Thanks for the video but the "critique" doesn't delve into the meaning or thoughts of the chimp. Only whether the paintings are pleasing.
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Old 12th October 2019, 01:10 PM   #296
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My SIL is an artist and has taught classes to kids and adults. She has in her home a bunch of canvasses that have been used multiple times to demonstrate the various styles of paintings that have been popular.

I looked at one for years that was a blog of purplish forms and last week realized it was of a sleeping cat. Another of a mermaid on a rock that didn't register until it was hung wrong side up.

All of her most appreciated work is beautifully done pencil drawings and oil paintings done in realistic styles.

She has never had a request for abstract art.
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Old 13th October 2019, 02:03 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Thanks for the video but the "critique" doesn't delve into the meaning or thoughts of the chimp. Only whether the paintings are pleasing.

OK, two more, then:

Quote:
What started out as scribbly lines and splotches of paint soon turned into carefully crafted compositions that demonstrated a formal logic without having an obvious analog to the real world. Just as Pollack, de Kooning, and Kline were exploring the limits of pictorial abstraction, so too was a three-year-old chimpanzee.
Congo, the Late Chimpanzee Painter Whose Works Have Sold for Thousands, Will Have a Solo Show at a Respected London Gallery (Art Net, Oct. 8, 2019)

Quote:
But Is It Art? And assuming it is, writes John Valentine in The Philosopher, "what then follows from such a classification? What sort of difference does it or should it make in the way we approach and appreciate chimpanzee paintings? If they are art, what sort of critical or interpretive discourse about them should we engage in? Do we simply appreciate the lines, colours, and forms of Congo's paintings and stop at that? Does it make any difference that the paintings were done by a member of a different species? Should species differences make any difference in artistic value?"
Meet Congo the Chimp, London’s Sensational 1950s Abstract Painter (Open Culture, Nov. 19, 2015)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 19th November 2019, 06:41 PM   #298
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Some people seem to value highly-detailed realist painting.

Thatís a very traditional genre.

I now see this more as a craft; the artist as a copying machine.

Abstract painting has developed certain traditions already.

Even now, there are people somehow still jealous they didnít think of Blue Poles first.

I love (to use Robert Hughesí term) The Shock of the New.

It shows great creativity to invent a new motif, a new design, a new way of seeing.

Copying a painting is worthless.
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Old 19th November 2019, 07:06 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Copying a painting is worthless.
It's not if what you want is a copy of the painting so that the original can be archived and preserved.
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:08 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not if what you want is a copy of the painting so that the original can be archived and preserved.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=331808
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Old 20th November 2019, 12:13 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Sorry
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Old 21st November 2019, 03:45 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not if what you want is a copy of the painting so that the original can be archived and preserved.
I hung a framed print of the Mona Lisa in a dingy apartment for years. a clear copy but it was something nice in an otherwise dull place. Any hopes of ever seeing the original are still beyond slim.

Copy or not it made me happy to see more than the ordinary. The value of it was high to me. The French are keeping the original one safe.
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Old 21st November 2019, 04:14 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I hung a framed print of the Mona Lisa in a dingy apartment for years. a clear copy but it was something nice in an otherwise dull place. Any hopes of ever seeing the original are still beyond slim.

Copy or not it made me happy to see more than the ordinary. The value of it was high to me. The French are keeping the original one safe.
Is yours actual size, or is it blown up to poster size? I understand that many people are surprised that the original is much smaller than they thought. And that was before Mr. Bean destroyed it in the movie.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:34 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I hung a framed print of the Mona Lisa in a dingy apartment for years. a clear copy but it was something nice in an otherwise dull place. Any hopes of ever seeing the original are still beyond slim.

Copy or not it made me happy to see more than the ordinary. The value of it was high to me. The French are keeping the original one safe.
Yes, I've got a copy of Franz Hals' Laughing Cavalier that used to belong to my grandparents. Apparently it was a popular wedding present in the 30s.
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Old 21st November 2019, 06:49 PM   #305
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It was the smaller size presumably close to original. Being a print it was lacking the depth a real painting offers but still nice.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 07:20 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
It was the smaller size presumably close to original. Being a print it was lacking the depth a real painting offers but still nice.
Seeing the real one was quite a disappointment for me. Was expecting something better presented not being to get close to it and so on. (This was decades ago, they may have improved the presentation these days.)
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Old 23rd November 2019, 07:26 AM   #307
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I also remember going to the Rembrandt museum in Amsterdam. I never really thought much of a lot of his pictures, but had only seen them in books, an odd one in an exhibition and so on.

I was as they say totally blown away by them in the flesh, they are astonishing, jaw dropping masterpieces. I could have spent my entire holiday in there.

That taught me to be very wary of forming an opinion about art that I have only seen via the telly or photos in books.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 07:31 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Seeing the real one was quite a disappointment for me. Was expecting something better presented not being to get close to it and so on. (This was decades ago, they may have improved the presentation these days.)
I was at the Wallace Collection in June this year and it is was possible to stand in front of it some 3 to 4 ft away. Worth it just to see the brush strokes on the lacing and cloth.
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Old 23rd November 2019, 08:14 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I also remember going to the Rembrandt museum in Amsterdam. I never really thought much of a lot of his pictures, but had only seen them in books, an odd one in an exhibition and so on.

I was as they say totally blown away by them in the flesh, they are astonishing, jaw dropping masterpieces. I could have spent my entire holiday in there.

That taught me to be very wary of forming an opinion about art that I have only seen via the telly or photos in books.
I never thought much about wanting to travel to see a particular artwork until I saw Penn Jillette's movie Tim's Vermeer in HD (Blu-Ray). He was working on copying another piece, but when I saw The Milk Maid I was blown away, especially in a particular section of it. I have considered making a trip just to see that one in person.
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Old 8th December 2019, 04:35 AM   #310
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Came across this on BBC:

Art Basel: Maurizio Cattelan's $120,000 banana eaten by artist

Quote:
An artwork of an overripe banana duct-taped to a wall that sold for $120,000 (£91,000) has been eaten by a separate performance artist.
The artwork, titled Comedian, by Italian artist Maurizio Cattelan, was on display at the international gallery Perrotin at Art Basel in Miami.
Three buyers bought the limited-edition pieces of the banana art this week.
But performance artist David Datuna pulled it from the wall, peeled it and devoured it on Saturday.
"Art performance by me. I love Maurizio Cattelan artwork and I really love this installation. It's very delicious," Mr Datuna posted on Instagram.
Despite the initial anger of a member of staff, the banana was swiftly replaced and no further action will be taken.
The art reportedly comes with a certificate of authenticity, meaning owners can replace the banana.
"[Datuna] did not destroy the art work. The banana is the idea," Lucien Terras, a director at the gallery, told the Miami Herald.
Police were later deployed to guard the replacement banana.
Police guarding a banana. So why would someone pay $120,000 for a banana and a piece of duct tape? I don't get it. Are they just trolling us? Not just 1 but 3 people apparently bought these bananas. I guess some people have more money than sense.
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Old 8th December 2019, 05:24 AM   #311
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Be interesting to consider what he could be charged with. Would it be vandalism? Or criminal damage?

Is the value of the damage 120,000 dollars or is it the 10 cents for the replacement banana?
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Old 8th December 2019, 06:23 AM   #312
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Eating the banana was performance art. At least that's his position. Maybe he added value.

Like when Banksy shredded a painting after it was sold. The art itself an idea, according to the gallery owner, and the thing that has value is the certificate of authenticity I suppose.

I wonder if it will have resale value if the owner wants to sell it in the future.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:36 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Came across this on BBC:

Art Basel: Maurizio Cattelan's $120,000 banana eaten by artist



Police guarding a banana. So why would someone pay $120,000 for a banana and a piece of duct tape? I don't get it. Are they just trolling us? Not just 1 but 3 people apparently bought these bananas. I guess some people have more money than sense.

Thanks Puppycow. A great example of of what I've been saying about some of the absurdity in the world of art.
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Old 8th December 2019, 01:43 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Came across this on BBC:

Art Basel: Maurizio Cattelan's $120,000 banana eaten by artist



Police guarding a banana. So why would someone pay $120,000 for a banana and a piece of duct tape? I don't get it. Are they just trolling us? Not just 1 but 3 people apparently bought these bananas. I guess some people have more money than sense.
I'll give you a hint:

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Old 8th December 2019, 02:08 PM   #315
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I just want to put in a little plug for ordinary common-sense mutual enjoyment of art, mostly paintings in this case. My ex-wife goes to a lot of museums and she still sends me photos of things that interest her.

When something interests her, as it does me, it's never "is this art"?

It's always something like, doesn't this look cool how there's kind of a foggy effect up top and then it gets sharper and more realistic down at the bottom, but there it's also most clearly a painting of a wheel?

If she sees something interesting in the work, usually so do I. She wouldn't be excited or put off by a painting with dung in it and neither would I.

Neither of us are artists, neither of us ever think of or discuss money in our enjoyment.

Just sayin' that there's a normal.
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Old 8th December 2019, 08:57 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Came across this on BBC:

Art Basel: Maurizio Cattelan's $120,000 banana eaten by artist



Police guarding a banana. So why would someone pay $120,000 for a banana and a piece of duct tape? I don't get it. Are they just trolling us? Not just 1 but 3 people apparently bought these bananas. I guess some people have more money than sense.
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Be interesting to consider what he could be charged with. Would it be vandalism? Or criminal damage?

Is the value of the damage 120,000 dollars or is it the 10 cents for the replacement banana?
There appears to be an inexhaustible supply of $120,000 bananas. Something happens to one, just replace it. Great scam if you can keep hooking the suckers.
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Old 9th December 2019, 12:04 AM   #317
Puppycow
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Originally Posted by calebprime View Post
I just want to put in a little plug for ordinary common-sense mutual enjoyment of art, mostly paintings in this case. My ex-wife goes to a lot of museums and she still sends me photos of things that interest her.

When something interests her, as it does me, it's never "is this art"?

It's always something like, doesn't this look cool how there's kind of a foggy effect up top and then it gets sharper and more realistic down at the bottom, but there it's also most clearly a painting of a wheel?

If she sees something interesting in the work, usually so do I. She wouldn't be excited or put off by a painting with dung in it and neither would I.

Neither of us are artists, neither of us ever think of or discuss money in our enjoyment.

Just sayin' that there's a normal.
Sure, of course. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate good art too, and I like to go to a museum to see good art as much as the next guy. But it doesn't mean we can't also scratch our heads about some things. I just think it's kind of amusing that someone would pay $120,000 for a banana taped to a wall.
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Old 9th December 2019, 12:12 AM   #318
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
$120,000 bananas... Great scam if you can keep hooking the suckers.
Suckers? No, the real suckers are those who who gave them $120,000 to spend on over-ripe bananas. IOW, us.

I have no problem with the rich 'wasting' their money on stuff that isn't actually 'worth it'. Bananas have minimal environmental impact compared to other things they might spend it on, like a CO2 belching sports car or private jet. So long as that money goes back into the economy without causing harm it's all good.

We should applaud the artists for convincing these 'suckers' to redistribute some of their undeserved wealth. The real art here isn't the rotten banana, it's a social comment on the inequalities of a capitalist society and how the rich think their wealth proves they are better than us.
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Last edited by Roger Ramjets; 9th December 2019 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 9th December 2019, 06:31 AM   #319
William Parcher
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How do you know when the art market is depressed?
A duct tape banana does not sell for $380,000.
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Old 9th December 2019, 02:01 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Sure, of course. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate good art too, and I like to go to a museum to see good art as much as the next guy. But it doesn't mean we can't also scratch our heads about some things. I just think it's kind of amusing that someone would pay $120,000 for a banana taped to a wall.

My opinion as well.

Though scoffed at as having no appreciation of art by some "artistically astute" in my family I can enjoy a piece of art I think. What I scoff at are those that define themselves as experts, who endorse toilets and bananas taped to walls as art, and the fawning pricks who acknowledge their expertise, and swoon over these works of art.
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