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Old 13th December 2019, 05:46 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Reading between the lines his mind I would bet she thinks Scomo's religious mindset, has something to do with his reluctance to take action. Perhaps a confidence that God is in control?
ftfy
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Old 14th December 2019, 02:49 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy
We "read" peoples' minds all the time, it is at the heart of how we communicate, we even have brain structures that allow this to happen.
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Old 14th December 2019, 04:49 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We "read" peoples' minds all the time, it is at the heart of how we communicate, we even have brain structures that allow this to happen.
No we don't.

In a face to face conversation, we can often pick up on visual clues from the speaker that add meaning to the words they are uttering. However, there is "reading somebody's mind" in a text only communication. This is the reason that smileys evolved.
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Old 14th December 2019, 01:36 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We "read" peoples' minds all the time, it is at the heart of how we communicate, we even have brain structures that allow this to happen.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No we don't.

In a face to face conversation, we can often pick up on visual clues from the speaker that add meaning to the words they are uttering. However, there is "reading somebody's mind" in a text only communication. This is the reason that smileys evolved.

You're outgunned here Darat, psion is an expert on these matters.

We still await his thesis giving an explanation of why a persons religious beliefs don't have any effect on his thoughts and actions. I'm sure it will be most convincing so we wait expectantly.

A little contradictory however, because although psion believes you can't read someones mind to see what they are thinking, he thinks you can read what they are not thinking.
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Old 14th December 2019, 09:53 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We still await his thesis giving an explanation of why a persons religious beliefs don't have any effect on his thoughts and actions. I'm sure it will be most convincing so we wait expectantly.
Then you will be waiting a long time because I never advanced such a thesis.

I simply point out that nobody knows what effect somebody's religious beliefs have on their thoughts and actions. We don't even know if the thoughts and actions are (partially at least) the result of or the cause of one's religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
A little contradictory however, because although psion believes you can't read someones mind to see what they are thinking, he thinks you can read what they are not thinking.
Yeah, a little typo there.

I meant to post there is NO "reading somebody's mind" in a text only communication.
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Old 15th December 2019, 01:31 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Then you will be waiting a long time because I never advanced such a thesis.

I simply point out that nobody knows what effect somebody's religious beliefs have on their thoughts and actions. We don't even know if the thoughts and actions are (partially at least) the result of or the cause of one's religious beliefs.


Yeah, a little typo there.

I meant to post there is NO "reading somebody's mind" in a text only communication.

Well that is a disappointment.

Given your seemingly absolute conviction that Scomo's actions were the result of everything but his religious mindset, I thought you might have something for our enlightenment on this subject. We are sometimes treated to filmed interviews of Scomo when making various utterances, so not only relying relying on text by the way.
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Old 15th December 2019, 06:32 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Well that is a disappointment.
So I didn't have to post my position 1000 times before you got an inkling of what I was saying?
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Old 15th December 2019, 07:28 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Now then psion it would seem you haven't been paying attention. If you had you would know that arth and I are not on the same page often, so to suggest that I am part of his cheering squad is absurd.
Just slightly.
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Old 15th December 2019, 09:52 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So I didn't have to post my position 1000 times before you got an inkling of what I was saying?

Oh we know what you are saying without any doubt. Your position is that a persons religious beliefs do not effect his or her actions.

This in spite of arth's detailed accounts of his own and others experiences within the church - a church the flavour as that of Scomo's incidentally.

This in spite of the history we are all familia with of wars fought by one group against another because of religious motivation.

So we wait in expectation of your thesis to explain this phenomena.
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Old 15th December 2019, 09:59 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Your position is that a persons religious beliefs do not effect his or her actions.
Either you forgot to read post #165 or you are just straight out lying.
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Old 16th December 2019, 01:27 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Either you forgot to read post #165 or you are just straight out lying.

Oh yes I read post #165 although I found it clumsy in the extreme and the light of reason did not shine through. Perhaps you can give us an explanation of the explanation for our enlightenment?

Once again you resort to insult I notice as you accuse me of lying. Tut, tut, this is not going well.
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Old 16th December 2019, 07:51 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I simply point out that nobody knows what effect somebody's religious beliefs have on their thoughts and actions. We don't even know if the thoughts and actions are (partially at least) the result of or the cause of one's religious beliefs.
In the case of this particular set of religious beliefs, I and a lot of the people I knew in the church had our behaviours modified by these beliefs, so it is reasonable to assume that another member of the same church will have their behaviours similarly modified.

To be specific, it is reasonable to assume that Scott Morrison will hold beliefs similar to my beliefs when I was a member of his church, and will behave in ways similar to the ways I behaved when I was a member of his church.

While it is trivially true that I can't read his mind, I can make assumptions on the contents of his mind based on the contents of my own mind when he and I were part of the same church.
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Old 16th December 2019, 07:59 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
In the case of this particular set of religious beliefs, I and a lot of the people I knew in the church had our behaviours modified by these beliefs, so it is reasonable to assume that another member of the same church will have their behaviours similarly modified.

To be specific, it is reasonable to assume that Scott Morrison will hold beliefs similar to my beliefs when I was a member of his church, and will behave in ways similar to the ways I behaved when I was a member of his church.

While it is trivially true that I can't read his mind, I can make assumptions on the contents of his mind based on the contents of my own mind when he and I were part of the same church.
Since when did Pentecostals teach that we must deliver tax breaks to the rich and welfare cuts to the poor? When did they teach that it is ok to destroy the Earth because the "end times" are upon us?
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Old 16th December 2019, 08:04 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Since when did Pentecostals teach that we must deliver tax breaks to the rich and welfare cuts to the poor? When did they teach that it is ok to destroy the Earth because the "end times" are upon us?
They teach the former in Prosperity Theology, and the latter in Eschatology.

As I have patiently explained before, Prosperity Theology is the belief that poverty is a moral failing, not a social one. The only way that Pentecostals are taught to help the poor is to witness to them, bring them into the church, and God will reward them for their piety.

And also as I have patiently explained before, the eschatology of evangelical churches is well-known. Everything that happens, including global warming, is part of God's divine plan. If God wants to use it to destroy the earth, he will, and we can't stop it. If God wants to save the earth, God will make it clear to us when and how to do that.

These things were taught to me when I was a member of Morrison's church. It is reasonable to assume that they were also taught to him.
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Old 16th December 2019, 08:18 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
The only way that Pentecostals are taught to help the poor is to witness to them, bring them into the church, and God will reward them for their piety.
That is a strange Pentecostal sect that you belonged to then. I have heard many Pentecostal preachers and I have never heard any of them preach that we should judge the poor or turn our backs on them (other than to evangelize).
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Old 16th December 2019, 08:33 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a strange Pentecostal sect that you belonged to then. I have heard many Pentecostal preachers and I have never heard any of them preach that we should judge the poor or turn our backs on them (other than to evangelize).
No, you won't hear them say those exact words. But if poverty is a moral failing, then the only thing that you can do to change their circumstances is to try to make them more moral. This is why churches have evangelised to the poor for centuries. You remember all those reports about aid being contingent on ministry?

Here's another personal experience. I used to work for the Australian Council for International Development, the peak body for the not-for-profit aid and development sector in Australia. ACFID keeps a Code of Conduct, that member organisations have to uphold. Compliance Indicator 7.3.2 reads "Member development initiatives consistently demonstrate the separation of development activities from non-development activities." This explicitly includes financial activities, ensuring that aid cannot be dependent on ministry.

Hillsong failed to meet that clause and their membership of the Council was cancelled in 2012.
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Old 16th December 2019, 10:54 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, you won't hear them say those exact words.
Nor any approximation to those words. That is just your particular spin on their teachings. The idea that they would say "convert or starve" is ludicrous.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Hillsong failed to meet that clause and their membership of the Council was cancelled in 2012.
More spin. The only reference to Hillsong I can find in relation to this matter comes from the ACFID report itself:
Quote:
Three organisations resigned as signatories to the ACFID Code of Conduct in 2010–11: Hillsong Aid and Development, Partners Relief and Development, and International Christian Aid Relief Enterprises Ltd.
https://acfid.asn.au/sites/site.acfi...E2%80%9311.pdf
There is no discussion anywhere that I can find regarding the background to this.
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Old 16th December 2019, 11:01 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
More spin. The only reference to Hillsong I can find in relation to this matter comes from the ACFID report itself:
https://acfid.asn.au/sites/site.acfi...E2%80%9311.pdf
There is no discussion anywhere that I can find regarding the background to this.
Oh for goodness sake! They were "asked to leave" and were permitted to write a "letter of resignation" so as not to be publicly embarrassed. Literally they would have been told "I expect your letter of resignation on my desk in the morning."

Seriously, are you THAT dense? This is pretty much standard practice these days in many fields of endeavor particular politics. It's been happening in the Trump White House with frequent regularity. Ask John Kelly.
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Old 16th December 2019, 11:08 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
They were "asked to leave" and were permitted to write a "letter of resignation" so as not to be publicly embarrassed.
Reference?
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Old 16th December 2019, 11:21 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nor any approximation to those words. That is just your particular spin on their teachings. The idea that they would say "convert or starve" is ludicrous.
World Vision and Oxfam, overseas, have been accused of exactly this. It's not so much "convert or starve" but "sing with us and we'll give you food".

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
More spin. The only reference to Hillsong I can find in relation to this matter comes from the ACFID report itself:
https://acfid.asn.au/sites/site.acfi...E2%80%9311.pdf
There is no discussion anywhere that I can find regarding the background to this.
There was plenty of discussion in the office, I can tell you that. I was there. We didn't write all of it down.

I project-managed that Annual Report, by the way. My photo is in it - page 32 on the far right. Seeing it again brings back some nostalgia.
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Old 17th December 2019, 01:33 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
World Vision and Oxfam, overseas, have been accused of exactly this. It's not so much "convert or starve" but "sing with us and we'll give you food".

There was plenty of discussion in the office, I can tell you that. I was there. We didn't write all of it down.

I project-managed that Annual Report, by the way. My photo is in it - page 32 on the far right. Seeing it again brings back some nostalgia.
Bah what would you know, just because you were there and managed it....
And went to that same church and everything...
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Old 17th December 2019, 02:03 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There was plenty of discussion in the office, I can tell you that. I was there. We didn't write all of it down.
The same report also says, "Two agencies were removed from the Code due to compliance issues: African Relief and Welfare Agency (annual and financial reporting requirements) and International Help Fund (failure to pay fees).". Hillsong isn't listed there. Whatever "discussions" you claim to recall, their membership wasn't "cancelled".

Ordinarily I would be willing to take what you say at face value but your overwhelming agenda is to "prove" that ScoMo's religion makes him dangerous and your claims about the Pentecostals get worse with every post (if they were that bad you would have said so in the first place).
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Old 17th December 2019, 05:46 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
This is getting pathetic psion! It is quite evident to me and I am sure many others that arth has you well on the back foot. Time to concede this and move on.
And yet....


He still carries on...
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Old 17th December 2019, 06:46 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
And yet....

https://i.postimg.cc/RZs2S2tR/tilting-at-windmills.jpg
He still carries on...
I know, the peanut gallery will never embrace critical thinking if it doesn't "prove" that ScoMo is a dangerous religious nut who is trying to bring on the apocalypse.
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Old 17th December 2019, 07:47 PM   #185
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Or it could be that 'everyone else' does have reason to believe that his religious beliefs are at the root of his climate change denialism, and the one person who is at odds simply has their own blinkers on and despite 'thinking' they are embracing critical thinking- aren't....

Which is more likely???
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Old 17th December 2019, 08:04 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The same report also says, "Two agencies were removed from the Code due to compliance issues: African Relief and Welfare Agency (annual and financial reporting requirements) and International Help Fund (failure to pay fees).". Hillsong isn't listed there. Whatever "discussions" you claim to recall, their membership wasn't "cancelled".
There was both procedure and politics involved in those particular decisions. African Relief failed to provide required documentation by the deadline. IHF failed to pay their membership fee on time. Both failures warranted cancellation. Our rules covered that.

Hillsong, on the other hand, approached us and said, basically, "We want to remain signatories to the Code, but we can't comply with 7.3.2. How can we move on with this?"

Our response was "You can't remain signatories to the Code if you do not comply with 7.3.2."

They said "Are you sure?"

We said "We're sure."

They said, "Okay, I guess will have to withdraw our membership then."

We said "Okay."

I'm paraphrasing, of course. But that's how it went down. Strictly speaking we never really "cancelled" their membership. But we made sure they were no longer members.

Incidentally Caritas, Oxfam Australia and World Vision Australia have complied with 7.3.2 with zero infractions since they joined the Council, despite what those organisations have been accused of in other countries.
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Old 17th December 2019, 08:06 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I know, the peanut gallery will never embrace critical thinking if it doesn't "prove" that ScoMo is a dangerous religious nut who is trying to bring on the apocalypse.
FFS, I have never tried to "prove" anything. This is the kind of thing that gets you on ignore lists. My original words, if you recall, were that I would not be surprised if that were the case - "that" referring to him subscribing to Dominion Theology.
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Old 18th December 2019, 02:46 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Or it could be that 'everyone else' does have reason to believe that his religious beliefs are at the root of his climate change denialism, and the one person who is at odds simply has their own blinkers on and despite 'thinking' they are embracing critical thinking- aren't....
No. It doesn't take any critical thinking to say "Arth is right therefore is reasoning his perfectly valid".

I have repeately said "where is the evidence (that religion is the only rational explanation for his actions)?" Of course, the peanut gallery can't provide that so they change my argument to "religion has no influence on ScoMo's actions" and presto! Suddenly I am the one who isn't embracing critical thinking.
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Old 18th December 2019, 04:33 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There was both procedure and politics involved in those particular decisions. African Relief failed to provide required documentation by the deadline. IHF failed to pay their membership fee on time. Both failures warranted cancellation. Our rules covered that.

Hillsong, on the other hand, approached us and said, basically, "We want to remain signatories to the Code, but we can't comply with 7.3.2. How can we move on with this?"

Our response was "You can't remain signatories to the Code if you do not comply with 7.3.2."

They said "Are you sure?"

We said "We're sure."

They said, "Okay, I guess will have to withdraw our membership then."

We said "Okay."

I'm paraphrasing, of course. But that's how it went down. Strictly speaking we never really "cancelled" their membership. But we made sure they were no longer members.

Incidentally Caritas, Oxfam Australia and World Vision Australia have complied with 7.3.2 with zero infractions since they joined the Council, despite what those organisations have been accused of in other countries.
That is radically different to saying "Hillsong failed to meet that clause and their membership of the Council was cancelled in 2012". Even then, it doesn't say what act that they were complaining about.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
FFS, I have never tried to "prove" anything. This is the kind of thing that gets you on ignore lists. My original words, if you recall, were that I would not be surprised if that were the case - "that" referring to him subscribing to Dominion Theology.
You may had said that at one point but your many bitter posts since then indicate that you would definitely be surprised if religion wasn't the root cause of his actions.
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Old 18th December 2019, 01:46 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I know, the peanut gallery will never embrace critical thinking if it doesn't "prove" that ScoMo is a dangerous religious nut who is trying to bring on the apocalypse.
Originally Posted by Dabop View Post
Or it could be that 'everyone else' does have reason to believe that his religious beliefs are at the root of his climate change denialism, and the one person who is at odds simply has their own blinkers on and despite 'thinking' they are embracing critical thinking- aren't....

Which is more likely???
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
FFS, I have never tried to "prove" anything. This is the kind of thing that gets you on ignore lists. My original words, if you recall, were that I would not be surprised if that were the case - "that" referring to him subscribing to Dominion Theology.

We are now "The Peanut Gallery" folks, as psion tries to skew things around by implying we are asserting positively, that Scomo is trying to bring about the apocalypse. We are of course not saying that, only suggesting Scomo's religious leanings may influence his actions. On the other hand psion is most positive in his assertion, that Scomo's actions are not influenced by religious leanings.
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Old 18th December 2019, 07:00 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We are of course not saying that, only suggesting Scomo's religious leanings may influence his actions.
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Old 18th December 2019, 07:05 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
We are now "The Peanut Gallery" folks, as psion tries to skew things around by implying we are asserting positively, that Scomo is trying to bring about the apocalypse. We are of course not saying that, only suggesting Scomo's religious leanings may influence his actions. On the other hand psion is most positive in his assertion, that Scomo's actions are not influenced by religious leanings.
Or rather, that there is no evidence that they are. Which is something that I disagree with. There's plenty of evidence, from his inaction on climate change to his virulently anti-LGBTQI+ stance.
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Old 18th December 2019, 08:30 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Or rather, that there is no evidence that they are. Which is something that I disagree with. There's plenty of evidence, from his inaction on climate change to his virulently anti-LGBTQI+ stance.
Sure.
- It is irrelevant that ScoMo is one of the pampered rich.
- It is irrelevant that the Liberal Party is dominated by a "I want it all" hard right faction.
- It is irrelevant that the Liberal Party is beholden to large global corporations.
- etc.

These factors may apply to other Liberals but ScoMo has one additional factor: he is Pentecostal. Therefore, none of the above factors apply to ScoMo. Religion becomes the sole motivation of his actions.
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Old 18th December 2019, 09:32 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Therefore, none of the above factors apply to ScoMo.
Please post the quote of where I said this. Heck, please post the quote of where anyone said this.
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Old 18th December 2019, 09:35 PM   #195
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Oh, would you look at that.

Nothing To See Here, But The Government Handed $110K To Scott Morrison’s Church Last Month

Quote:
While he’s off galavanting about in god knows where (Hawaii, he’s in Hawaii), it seems Prime Minister Scott Morrison‘s Government has been hard at work giving taxpayer-funded handouts to the people who need it most. It’s just that, apparently, their definition of “the people who need it most” is “the members of Scott Morrison’s own already pretty well-off Pentecostal church.”

Last month the Government awarded a grant to Morrison’s own Horizon Church in Sutherland, according to documents published on the Government’s transparent grants website.

Horizon, which also operates as Shirelive, is a Pentecostal megachurch that boasts an impressive and very glitzy facility, featuring a 1,000-seat auditorium. Scott Morrison and his entire family are members of the church, and regularly attend services whenever he’s in town.

In mid-November, the church was awarded $110,000 worth of public money through a Department of Home Affairs initiative known as the Safer Communities Fund.
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Old 18th December 2019, 09:39 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Please post the quote of where I said this. Heck, please post the quote of where anyone said this.
If you believed that religion is just one of several possible factors that may contribute to ScoMo's actions you would have stopped arguing about this a long time ago.
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Old 18th December 2019, 09:44 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you believed that religion is just one of several possible factors that may contribute to ScoMo's actions you would have stopped arguing about this a long time ago.
No, because you denied that religion was one of several possible factors. Therefore, we concentrated our discussion on that factor.
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Old 18th December 2019, 11:53 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you believed that religion is just one of several possible factors that may contribute to ScoMo's actions you would have stopped arguing about this a long time ago.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, because you denied that religion was one of several possible factors. Therefore, we concentrated our discussion on that factor.
Which brings us to the age-old question: do people think and behave they way they do because of their religion, or do they use their religion to justify way they think and behave? How much is in in one basket vs the other?
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Old 19th December 2019, 12:29 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, because you denied that religion was one of several possible factors. Therefore, we concentrated our discussion on that factor.
This is no longer a strawman argument. Either show us the post where I say that religion is NOT a factor in ScoMo's actions or be exposed as a liar.
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Old 19th December 2019, 12:42 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is no longer a strawman argument. Either show us the post where I say that religion is NOT a factor in ScoMo's actions or be exposed as a liar.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
As usual, a statement made without a skerrick of evidence.
- There is no evidence whatsoever that ScoMo's religion influences his actions as a politician.
- Even if it did, there is no way of knowing which beliefs influence him nor how they modify his actions.

All you have is pure CT.
While this post does not literally contain the words "religion is NOT a factor", its intent is to imply that. Its intent is as a rebuttal to the claim that Morrison's behaviour is dictated by his religion, which is a claim that nobody has made.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
No. Scott Morrison controls our government. And his religion controls him. A religion of mindless money-grubbing profit-driven submission to control-freaks. You may accept that. Others won't.
Okay, it's a claim that almost nobody has made.
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