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Old 5th August 2022, 11:16 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But most if not all theists insist that their god is good, and many outline evils that are anathema to that god, with scriptures and such that emphasize the objective reality of good and evil.

We atheists can say there's no such thing as objective evil, but theists have to eat their own dogfood.
They do, but once atheists are allowing for theists to use their own definitions in the premises, then the validity of those arguments follows.

For example: can an omnipotent being create a rational universe in which 1=1 and 1=2 are both true simultaneously?

(1) If the answer is "no", then:

An omnipotent and omnibenevolent being must allow people to make free-will choices if this results in a greater good. Thus the answer to the dilemma is that "God is unable and unwilling to prevent evil, since by His nature He must allow the greater good."

(2) If the answer is "yes", then:

An omnipotent being could make a universe in which evil is not evil. Thus the answer is "God is willing and able, and in fact this universe has no evil, since evil is not evil."

Perfectly valid arguments, though not sound since the premises are not proven.
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Old 5th August 2022, 11:19 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Are unicorns and pixies real? You should provide evidence that some godthing is real before discussing how it should be morally judged.
I can agree with you on that.
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Old 5th August 2022, 11:32 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

― Epicurus
Matthew 13:24-30 and Matthew 13:36-43 would appear to address these points.
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Old 6th August 2022, 12:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Matthew 13:24-30 and Matthew 13:36-43 would appear to address these points.
So the god described in those quotes is the willing, but not able version.
After all in those verses the 'good' god is unable to prevent the 'evil' god from interfering.
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Old 6th August 2022, 12:29 AM   #45
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Old 6th August 2022, 12:52 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So the god described in those quotes is the willing, but not able version.
That is not what the parable says.

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
After all in those verses the 'good' god is unable to prevent the 'evil' god from interfering.
It seems to come down to God can either give "free will" or prevent evil but can't do both. This might be considered a technical argument against omnipotence (sounds hair splittery) but according to the parable, God will sort it out at the end.
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Old 6th August 2022, 01:17 AM   #47
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But God doesn't give you free will - not if he doesn't want you to have any
This makes Christian Free Will a Frankfurter Case, i.e. the only reason why you got to make a Free Will decision is because you decided to act the way God wanted you to. God would have intervened into your Free Will decision if he didn't like the outcome.
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Old 6th August 2022, 02:43 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
But if, as some atheists maintain, there is no such thing as objective evil - i.e. if "evil" is just a human subjective construction - then why is God malevolent if He doesn't prevent it?

Doesn't it become "If God does something I don't like, God is malevolent"?

And doesn't that eventually resolve to "If YOU do something I don't like, you are malevolent"?
Up to those who believe in a god or gods to define their god or gods. Pointing out what their definition means is simply a service. If they don't like the consequences of their definitions that's on them.

Most of the Christian sects have been trying to square the circle of evil for as long as they've been codified. Can't lay that one at the feet of atheists.
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Old 6th August 2022, 02:47 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Adding to what bruto said, malevolence is the conclusion of judging the god character in the bible/quran as if it were a fellow man.

But you put there a non sequitur with backflips and fireworks not oftenly seen: "if evil is subjective why godcharacter is considered to be evil under some subjective definitions of evil".

It's like you imagined the godcharacter to be real and then progenitor of objective moral thus unreachable by subjectivities coming from its subjects. What a funny thing to think.

Are unicorns and pixies real? You should provide evidence that some godthing is real before discussing how it should be morally judged.
Also there is the little titbit that is often overlooked - for many of those that believe in a god or gods their definition of good and evil is the "most" subjective - it is meant to be the opinion of one person/entity/thingy-me-bob, there is nothing at all objective in what the believers in god or gods consider to be good and evil.
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Old 6th August 2022, 02:49 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is not what the parable says.


It seems to come down to God can either give "free will" or prevent evil but can't do both. This might be considered a technical argument against omnipotence (sounds hair splittery) but according to the parable, God will sort it out at the end.
It's a theological argument that Christians have been having with themselves for over a thousand years. Perhaps you should let them know you've solved it?
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Old 6th August 2022, 02:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But God doesn't give you free will - not if he doesn't want you to have any
This makes Christian Free Will a Frankfurter Case, i.e. the only reason why you got to make a Free Will decision is because you decided to act the way God wanted you to. God would have intervened into your Free Will decision if he didn't like the outcome.
There are sects of Christianity that explicitly believe there is no freewill - when you are born you are either lined up for eternity without god or eternity with god, and there isn't a single thing you can do about it.
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Old 6th August 2022, 03:21 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But God doesn't give you free will - not if he doesn't want you to have any
This makes Christian Free Will a Frankfurter Case, i.e. the only reason why you got to make a Free Will decision is because you decided to act the way God wanted you to. God would have intervened into your Free Will decision if he didn't like the outcome.
There are a couple of examples in the bible where somebody's free will has apparently been overridden but I can't find anything in the bible that suggests that free will is the exception rather than the rule.
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Old 6th August 2022, 03:22 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It's a theological argument that Christians have been having with themselves for over a thousand years. Perhaps you should let them know you've solved it?
Solved what? This is like the question, "can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it"?

There is no sensible way to deal with such a question.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:51 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are a couple of examples in the bible where somebody's free will has apparently been overridden but I can't find anything in the bible that suggests that free will is the exception rather than the rule.
The Bible also says that God knows what you are going to do even before you are born; this negates the common definition of a Free Choice i.e. you could have done otherwise).

Face it: Free Will is Christianity's fig leaf excuse for the Problem of Evil, not an actual cornerstone of the Faith.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Bible also says that God knows what you are going to do even before you are born; this negates the common definition of a Free Choice i.e. you could have done otherwise).

Face it: Free Will is Christianity's fig leaf excuse for the Problem of Evil, not an actual cornerstone of the Faith.
But remember - not for all organised sects of Christianity.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:26 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But remember - not for all organised sects of Christianity.
Yes for all - some are just more aware than others.
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Old 6th August 2022, 06:00 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Bible also says that God knows what you are going to do even before you are born;
I thought it said that God had a plan for you even before you were born or that God knows what is in your heart (neither of which negates free will).

But upon you producing the appropriate quotes from the bible, I will admit I was wrong.
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Old 6th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The Bible also says that God knows what you are going to do even before you are born; this negates the common definition of a Free Choice i.e. you could have done otherwise).

Face it: Free Will is Christianity's fig leaf excuse for the Problem of Evil, not an actual cornerstone of the Faith.
You paint with too broad a brush. The implications of an omniscient God have been perfectly well known to educated Christian's going back to the early church. Augustin talks about it at some length. The basic question predates Christianity and goes back to the stoics, I think.
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Old 6th August 2022, 08:13 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
But God doesn't give you free will - not if he doesn't want you to have any
This makes Christian Free Will a Frankfurter Case, i.e. the only reason why you got to make a Free Will decision is because you decided to act the way God wanted you to. God would have intervened into your Free Will decision if he didn't like the outcome.
Artificial X'ian/Islamic Free Will only exists with the sole purpose of allowing their godcharacter to get away scot-free for every wrong in the world hard to fit in the category "he"-is-testing-you.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Solved what? This is like the question, "can God make a rock so heavy that he can't lift it"?
You forgot the "totally unrelated" between "like the" and "question"
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no sensible way to deal with such a question.
That's the reason you used it to manufacture your rhetorical cul de sac.
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Old 6th August 2022, 08:15 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You forgot the "totally unrelated" between "like the" and "question"
This is obviously way too complicated for you.
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Old 6th August 2022, 08:29 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are a couple of examples in the bible where somebody's free will has apparently been overridden ...
That, if you deal with the free will of all mankind but Noah's to remain alive as one single example.

Gee! I wonder which is the other example and how many books it encompasses.

Don't worry, you said it, it's all apparent.
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Old 6th August 2022, 08:31 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is obviously way too complicated for you.
Oh, my darwiness! How to deal with such an intelligent retort!?
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:40 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought it said that God had a plan for you even before you were born or that God knows what is in your heart (neither of which negates free will).
Hence, either the godthingy sends a child rapist or says "go ahead and rape that child away, I'll punish you afterwards". If a decent person took that stance the rest of us would consider them a monster.

That's the diferente between the biblical/quranic godthingy and a decent person, and no matter how many tired rehashes of medieval apologetics Emre posts and how many aspersions and smoke screens you cast it'll remain true.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:16 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I thought it said that God had a plan for you even before you were born or that God knows what is in your heart (neither of which negates free will).

But upon you producing the appropriate quotes from the bible, I will admit I was wrong.
The thing with bible quotes is that they are as clear as muck.

You and I for instance have a totally different reading of the two Matthews verses you quoted earlier.
And the same holds true for every other religion.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Hence, either the godthingy sends a child rapist or says "go ahead and rape that child away, I'll punish you afterwards".
That is such a stupid pile of nonsense that it doesn't deserve a reply.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:53 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
You and I for instance have a totally different reading of the two Matthews verses you quoted earlier.
You had to insert the word "unable" to make the verses coincide with your "interpretation".
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Old 6th August 2022, 06:11 PM   #67
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Seems to me that the Hindoos don't have a problem of evil. Every god has a mate of the opposite sex which is also a second aspect of that god, and every god has a ferocious form, and they are all merely aspects of the Almighty, which encompasses absolutely everything, including me and you and the **** that we do, and life and death and genocide and herpes and ice cream, and you gotta love it somehow.

Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.
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Old 6th August 2022, 08:44 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is such a stupid pile of nonsense that it doesn't deserve a reply.
So you don't have one then? (An reply that is to say.)
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:38 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
So you don't have one then? (An reply that is to say.)
That was the reply. Did you really think that the question of whether God knows what you are going to do before you are born means that God created rapists?
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:53 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You had to insert the word "unable" to make the verses coincide with your "interpretation".
Ok.
Unwilling then.

The point is, in the parable, the god of the bible does not in any way stop the devil from sowing the bad people/influences.
Whether that is unwilling or unable is moot, in both cases it does not show an omnipotent benevolent god.
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:56 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That was the reply. Did you really think that the question of whether God knows what you are going to do before you are born means that God created rapists?
If you assume that self same god is responsible for creating the entire universe according to it's will (which is what most major religions claim), then yes.
Such a god KNEW the being he'd create would be a rapist (all knowing) and he created it anyway even though he could have prevented that (all powerful).

I agree that the bible shows a god that is neither all powerful nor all knowing nor benevolent so that would make sense.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:12 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
If you assume that self same god is responsible for creating the entire universe according to it's will . . . . .
You can stop right there. The assumption is that God created people with free will. He didn't program people to be thieves, rapists or murderers. Those are choices that people are free to make or not make entirely of their own volition.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:33 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can stop right there. The assumption is that God created people with free will. He didn't program people to be thieves, rapists or murderers. Those are choices that people are free to make or not make entirely of their own volition.

So, not all knowing then. After all an omnipotent being that is all knowing cannot create free will.

Tolkien had the same problem when writing his mythology, though he actually explained WHY his benevolent being did not just remove the evil from his world.

Anyway, a god that creates free will and then does not interfere when there are things clearly evil is also not benevolent. At most indifferent.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:37 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can stop right there. The assumption is that God created people with free will. He didn't program people to be thieves, rapists or murderers. Those are choices that people are free to make or not make entirely of their own volition.
That all works pretty well until you get to intervention. If a god were either unable to meddle (perhaps because if you know what will happen it really already has) or unwilling (perhaps because free will would lose its meaning), we've got something, but as soon as we start having God creating miracles and intervening in the events of mankind, we're back to the nasty question of "why this and not that?" A god that transubstatiates has some explaining to do.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:50 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
So, not all knowing then. After all an omnipotent being that is all knowing cannot create free will.
This might be considered a technical argument against "all knowing".

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Tolkien had the same problem when writing his mythology, though he actually explained WHY his benevolent being did not just remove the evil from his world.
Did Tolkien have a different explanation to Matthew?

Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Anyway, a god that creates free will and then does not interfere when there are things clearly evil is also not benevolent. At most indifferent.
If a god interferes with free will then we don't have free will.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:54 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
That all works pretty well until you get to intervention. If a god were either unable to meddle (perhaps because if you know what will happen it really already has) or unwilling (perhaps because free will would lose its meaning), we've got something, but as soon as we start having God creating miracles and intervening in the events of mankind, we're back to the nasty question of "why this and not that?" A god that transubstatiates has some explaining to do.
If this world is all there is then you might be right.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:01 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There are a couple of examples in the bible where somebody's free will has apparently been overridden
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If a god interferes with free will then we don't have free will.
Ergo we don't have free will.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Ergo we don't have free will.
ALL free will is lost if ONE person has their free will overridden?
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:26 AM   #79
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Has "free will" been defined in this thread? It seems like something different is being intended by the term in recent posts than in the OP.
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Old 7th August 2022, 05:33 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL free will is lost if ONE person has their free will overridden?
Apparently. It's your claim, you explain what you meant.
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