IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 7th August 2022, 06:11 AM   #81
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,589
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL free will is lost if ONE person has their free will overridden?
Yes
Because you can't exercise free will if you can never sure if God made you do something for not.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 06:18 AM   #82
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Has "free will" been defined in this thread? It seems like something different is being intended by the term in recent posts than in the OP.
Have you got a definition of "free will" that would render the discussion in this thread moot?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 06:21 AM   #83
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Apparently. It's your claim, you explain what you meant.
"We have no free will" is your claim, not mine.

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes
Because you can't exercise free will if you can never sure if God made you do something for not.
How frequently would one's free will have to be overridden for this to be true? Hourly? Weekly? Once every billiion years?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 06:28 AM   #84
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That was the reply. Did you really think that the question of whether God knows what you are going to do before you are born means that God created rapists?
Umm. Yes. If the god entity existed.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 07:58 AM   #85
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Umm. Yes. If the god entity existed.
That is a long stretch.

Assuming that you really believe this then it means that your argument is that there is no such thing as free will. God programmed everybody to do whatever they do.

Have you got a biblical reference for this position or are you just making up your own story?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 08:09 AM   #86
sphenisc
Philosopher
 
sphenisc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,791
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"We have no free will" is your claim, not mine.
And I've shown how it's based on your claims. Feel free to attack the premises, or the logic; or accept the conclusion.
__________________
"The cure for everything is salt water - tears, sweat or the sea." Isak Dinesen
sphenisc is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 09:03 AM   #87
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
Before we disprove free will, have we defined it yet? I'm not at all sure that the same idea of free will is being argued about as was put forward in the OP.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 09:09 AM   #88
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,906
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a long stretch.

Assuming that you really believe this then it means that your argument is that there is no such thing as free will. God programmed everybody to do whatever they do.

Have you got a biblical reference for this position or are you just making up your own story?
Isaiah 45:7 King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 01:48 PM   #89
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can stop right there. The assumption is that God created people with free will. He didn't program people to be thieves, rapists or murderers. Those are choices that people are free to make or not make entirely of their own volition.
How convenient! As a matter of necessity you now invented a godthingy that "creates" hollow people ready for them to program their own nature through a now convoluted process called "free will".

As I already said "free will" is an invention born in the need for the deity to go scot-free for the evil in the world. You're just one of many tailoring "free will" according to your rhetorical needs. You simply failed.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 02:17 PM   #90
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Before we disprove free will, have we defined it yet? I'm not at all sure that the same idea of free will is being argued about as was put forward in the OP.
The theist side of this discussion has chosen to call free will the ability to choose. Goddygod gave free will to Montoto and Montoto freely chose to be a child rapist.

That's not the way it works. Computer programs make choices. Any machine with a slot to insert loose change makes choices. That's not the point. "Free will" suppose the ability of having chosen differently provided all the circunstances are the same.

We should start to pile up here all the studies done on the matter of people and their "choices". Even discussing how magicians exploit the seamingly free choices of volunteers in their acts. This universe isn't hard deterministic but it's apparently highly deterministic and that leaves little room for a "free" to go together with our "choices".
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 02:47 PM   #91
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The theist side of this discussion has chosen to call free will the ability to choose. Goddygod gave free will to Montoto and Montoto freely chose to be a child rapist.

That's not the way it works. Computer programs make choices. Any machine with a slot to insert loose change makes choices. That's not the point. "Free will" suppose the ability of having chosen differently provided all the circunstances are the same.

We should start to pile up here all the studies done on the matter of people and their "choices". Even discussing how magicians exploit the seamingly free choices of volunteers in their acts. This universe isn't hard deterministic but it's apparently highly deterministic and that leaves little room for a "free" to go together with our "choices".
I'm not sure that this is exactly true. The OP's link contains the following statement:

"Since Allah Almighty knows who will do what with their free will and what their character will be like even before they are created, "

It looks like we are talking about a type of free will where your choices are predestined, much in the manner of a computer program.

The issues of determinism and free will were known to Aristotle. I don't know about Islam, but this was integrated into Christianity in the first millennium.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 03:50 PM   #92
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 32,979
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"We have no free will" is your claim, not mine.


How frequently would one's free will have to be overridden for this to be true? Hourly? Weekly? Once every billiion years?
If it's possible, then how often the possibility is exercised is irrelevant. If God can override free will and can decide when to do it, then he may treat us to an arbitrary period during which we can act as if we had it, and in which our actions are identical to those of one who has it, but it's a dispensation. It's not real free will. We're characters in a story of which he is the editor.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

"There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 03:56 PM   #93
sackett
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Detroit
Posts: 7,800
When I haven't been to the barber in a while, my hair starts rucking up in back. Not much, it's just a wee frill.
__________________
If you would learn a man's character, give him authority.

If you would ruin a man's character, let him seize power.
sackett is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 05:25 PM   #94
Gord_in_Toronto
Penultimate Amazing
 
Gord_in_Toronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,906
In doing my search for the verse in my previous post I came upon this one in 1 Samuel 18:

Quote:
10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul's hand.
You can't make this **** up - well I guess some one did.


__________________
"Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick
Gord_in_Toronto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 08:05 PM   #95
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Isaiah 45:7 King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So Isaiah 45:7 doesn't say that God programmed everybody's actions in advance?
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 08:09 PM   #96
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
How convenient! As a matter of necessity you now invented a godthingy that "creates" hollow people ready for them to program their own nature through a now convoluted process called "free will".

As I already said "free will" is an invention born in the need for the deity to go scot-free for the evil in the world. You're just one of many tailoring "free will" according to your rhetorical needs. You simply failed.
The failure is all yours.

If the "godthingy" is purely born of the imagination then there is no rule that says you can't imagine that this "godthingy" created people with free will.

You need to deny free will so that this imaginary "godthingy" can only be described as evil.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 08:14 PM   #97
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
If it's possible, then how often the possibility is exercised is irrelevant makes all the difference in the world.
ftfy.

It is ridiculous to say that during their life, somebody made 1,000,000 unforced choices and 1 choice was forced therefore all 1,000,001 choices were forced.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 08:25 PM   #98
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The theist side of this discussion has chosen to call free will the ability to choose. Goddygod gave free will to Montoto and Montoto freely chose to be a child rapist.

That's not EXACTLY the way it works.
ftfy.

Whether free will can exist or not in a deterministic universe is a scientific argument and has nothing to do with the imagination.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 09:50 PM   #99
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 32,979
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.

It is ridiculous to say that during their life, somebody made 1,000,000 unforced choices and 1 choice was forced therefore all 1,000,001 choices were forced.
You miss the point entirely. Of course the unforced choices were not forced, but is that all that free will is? If a god is watching you and proven to be willing and able to intervene, you are acting at his sufferance. Your actions might seem free, and might be the same as what you would do if you were free, and you might be led to believe you are free and might act as you would if you were, but if there is a god that can, at his discretion, intervene, then your freedom is a fiction, even if it's a very skillful, well engineered, and believable one.

If there's a law I have no desire to break, and if I live my entire life without breaking it, I can be effectively free, and behave as if I were free, but it's conditional.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

"There is another world, but it's in this one." (Paul Eluard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 10:32 PM   #100
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 12,366
I see Emre has seagulled the thread...
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 11:23 PM   #101
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course the unforced choices were not forced, but is that all that free will is?
Yes. Either all choices are made by God or there is free will.

Originally Posted by bruto View Post
If there's a law I have no desire to break, and if I live my entire life without breaking it, I can be effectively free, and behave as if I were free, but it's conditional.
Free will doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your choices.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975

Last edited by psionl0; 7th August 2022 at 11:26 PM.
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 11:30 PM   #102
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,589
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes. Either all choices are made by God or there is free will.

.
That would only be true if you had a way of knowing that God didn't make you make a particular choice.

Do you think that you would be able to tell if God did intervene I your choice?
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th August 2022, 11:50 PM   #103
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
That would only be true if you had a way of knowing that God didn't make you make a particular choice.
There is no such rule.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 12:56 AM   #104
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,589
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
There is no such rule.
Yes there it's called logic.

Just because you aren't aware of the manipulation doesn't mean that your choice was free. On the contrary: the more transparent the constraints of choice are, the more freely you can choose within those constraints.

The fact that God can, unbeknownst to you, change your will means that you should be suspicious of every choice you make and can never be certain that it was you who made a decision.
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:41 AM   #105
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Yes there it's called logic.

Just because you aren't aware of the manipulation doesn't mean that your choice was free. On the contrary: the more transparent the constraints of choice are, the more freely you can choose within those constraints.

The fact that God can, unbeknownst to you, change your will means that you should be suspicious of every choice you make and can never be certain that it was you who made a decision.
Aaaannnndd ... You are back to if one choice is forced then all choices are forced.

You can't have it both ways. Assuming that God makes the majority of the choices for people (which is not biblical) that still means that the remaining choices were made by people of their own free will. Ergo God gave people free will.

Note that even if you are unaware whether a choice is made by you or by God, that doesn't mean you don't have free will - unless you want to maintain the illogical position that God doesn't make all choices for a person but free will doesn't exist.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:43 AM   #106
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,540
All well and good - but anyone got the answer to the problem of evil?
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:49 AM   #107
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
 
The Great Zaganza's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 18,589
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All well and good - but anyone got the answer to the problem of evil?
**** happens
__________________
"The only true paradise is paradise lost"
Marcel Proust
The Great Zaganza is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:53 AM   #108
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
All well and good - but anyone got the answer to the problem of evil?
People can make evil choices. The End.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:54 AM   #109
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,540
Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
**** happens
You have summed it up well. Indeed all the theologians always get to that same point "god works in mysterious ways", "we can't know god's will/mind/mood/plan".
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 01:55 AM   #110
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,540
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
People can make evil choices. The End.
The other non-nonbeliever in god/gods in this thread disagrees with you.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 02:03 AM   #111
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
The other non-nonbeliever in god/gods in this thread disagrees with you.
You can argue that there are no gods therefore there is no evil if you wish but then it wouldn't make sense to ask for an answer to the problem of evil.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 03:36 AM   #112
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The failure is all yours.

If the "godthingy" is purely born of the imagination then there is no rule that says you can't imagine that this "godthingy" created people with free will.

You need to deny free will so that this imaginary "godthingy" can only be described as evil.
Don't be so hysterical and try to articulate your replies.

I know you think you are the centre of the universe and the godthingy exists just because there's a tradition with people believing it exists, but that doesn't make it real and some kind of default so you can try to mock any position on the contrary.

I mean, you are usually good at manipulating the coversation and waltzing away your weak points, but here you are in cement mixer mode thinking what you believe is real and evident. Feel free to prove first that your godthingyallmightythingymagig really exist and, by the way, learn what free will mean in the real world, away from the fantasies of assorted dime-a-dozen theists like Emre or yourself.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 03:52 AM   #113
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not sure that this is exactly true. The OP's link contains the following statement:

"Since Allah Almighty knows who will do what with their free will and what their character will be like even before they are created, "

It looks like we are talking about a type of free will where your choices are predestined, much in the manner of a computer program.

The issues of determinism and free will were known to Aristotle. I don't know about Islam, but this was integrated into Christianity in the first millennium.
You're absolutely right in that. Emre linked their long-winded op'ed named "destiny and free will" within the solitary forum post they're offering here for discussion.

But I mainly meant free will in the misty way psionl0 uses it, as she/he has taken the centre scene is this thread and won't handle it back to Emre until bored here.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 03:55 AM   #114
shuttlt
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 9,836
I'm not sure I've really seen psionl0 define it either. It's meaning is typically obvious until one things about it for 30 seconds, then the obvious notion starts to look incoherent and we must mean something else.
shuttlt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 04:02 AM   #115
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
And, shuttlt, if you need any evidence of that, I can offer this. Apparently what matters is "imagination"...

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The theist side of this discussion has chosen to call free will the ability to choose. Goddygod gave free will to Montoto and Montoto freely chose to be a child rapist.

That's not EXACTLY the way it works.
ftfy.

Whether free will can exist or not in a deterministic universe is a scientific argument and has nothing to do with the imagination.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 04:09 AM   #116
aleCcowaN
imperfecto del subjuntivo
 
aleCcowaN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer...
Posts: 9,521
Question

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I'm not sure I've really seen psionl0 define it either. It's meaning is typically obvious until one things about it for 30 seconds, then the obvious notion starts to look incoherent and we must mean something else.
Well, if that individual discussed the topic bonafides it would be true, but exploiting that very same incoherence for the sake of forum brawling seems to be her/his goal.

But I certainly share your opinion on
the matter. Free will works as long you don't reflect about it.
__________________
Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated.These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
If the horse reasons the Kentucky Derby is over
aleCcowaN is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 04:41 AM   #117
GDon
Graduate Poster
 
GDon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,377
When discussing free-will, people tend to ignore the "will" part. "Will" is a biological function that can only exist in a deterministic universe. If the universe was random, how can we talk about "will" or "choice"? But in a deterministic universe, will becomes one of the factors that determines outcomes. After all, how can one choose other than what they do in fact choose?

Daniel Dennett is an atheist philosopher who is a compatiblist. That is, he believes that free-will and determinism are compatible. He discusses it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joCOWaaTj4A

Last edited by GDon; 8th August 2022 at 04:49 AM.
GDon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 04:55 AM   #118
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 104,540
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can argue that there are no gods therefore there is no evil if you wish but then it wouldn't make sense to ask for an answer to the problem of evil.
I'm sure I could - but of course I didn't so as usual a non sequitur to what was actually posted.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 05:03 AM   #119
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Don't be so hysterical and try to articulate your replies.

I know you think you are the centre of the universe and the godthingy exists just because there's a tradition with people believing it exists, but that doesn't make it real and some kind of default so you can try to mock any position on the contrary.

I mean, you are usually good at manipulating the coversation and waltzing away your weak points, but here you are in cement mixer mode thinking what you believe is real and evident. Feel free to prove first that your godthingyallmightythingymagig really exist and, by the way, learn what free will mean in the real world, away from the fantasies of assorted dime-a-dozen theists like Emre or yourself.
Your translator is clearly on the fritz. This pile of rule 12 violation didn't address a single word that you quoted.

Of course, in order to address the post, you would have to understand it and clearly you don't because you are not the legend in your own mind that you think you are.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th August 2022, 05:04 AM   #120
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
 
psionl0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 19,428
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm sure I could - but of course I didn't so as usual a non sequitur to what was actually posted.
If people can't make evil choices (your position) then there isn't a question to answer.
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975
psionl0 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.