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Old 4th August 2022, 11:41 AM   #321
kookbreaker
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
You forgot the guns. They all have to shoot guns now.
Usually at an old cathode ray tube tv with some Democrat’s picture on it.
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Old 4th August 2022, 11:51 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Every Conservative Campaign ad is like if one of those algorithmically generated Print on Demand "I'M A CONSERVATIVE WHO DRIVES A TRUCK AND WAS BORN IN JULY AND IF YOU LIBERALS DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN GO TO HELL" non-sequitur shirts gained sentience and was given a video camera.
The old poster logger was like that. Every thread he was in, he would pretty much go off on how we all hated him because he cut trees, drove a truck, shot guns, flied a flag, smoked, etc. etc. It was very hard to make him understand that nobody really gave a ****.
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Old 4th August 2022, 12:22 PM   #323
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
The old poster logger was like that. Every thread he was in, he would pretty much go off on how we all hated him because he cut trees, drove a truck, shot guns, flied a flag, smoked, etc. etc. It was very hard to make him understand that nobody really gave a ****.
This describes most of my extended family and they are mostly Democrats. The idea that people who this describes are inherently reactionary conservatives is of quite recent vintage. That professional class people are often obnoxiously dismissive of these people has never been much of a partisan thing.


One of my more favorite random thoughts is that Lynnard Skynyrd, a revered redneck southern rock band had a hit song that advocated for gun control and that didn't at all seem weird at the time. Imagine today a bunch of drunk confederate flag waiving lunatics cheering loudly at :

Quote:
Hand guns are made for killin'
They ain't no good for nothin' else.
And if you like to drink your whiskey
You might even shoot yourself.
So why don't we dump 'em people
To the bottom of the sea
Before some ol' fool come around here
Wanna shoot either you or me.
It's wild how well the GOP has been winning that small front of the culture war.
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Old 4th August 2022, 01:06 PM   #324
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
The reason I'm voting against Lake and Finchem is because they would be in position to do dirty work in the 2024 election. Masters is not in that position.

As for Sinema, the Arizona Republic (which used to be a pretty conservative paper) blasted her for not going all with Biden's Build Inflation Better plan. The media amplify the talking points of the Left.
Guy, the GOP as you once knew it is dead. Time to move on.
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Old 5th August 2022, 12:08 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
This describes most of my extended family and they are mostly Democrats. The idea that people who this describes are inherently reactionary conservatives is of quite recent vintage. That professional class people are often obnoxiously dismissive of these people has never been much of a partisan thing.


One of my more favorite random thoughts is that Lynnard Skynyrd, a revered redneck southern rock band had a hit song that advocated for gun control and that didn't at all seem weird at the time. Imagine today a bunch of drunk confederate flag waiving lunatics cheering loudly at :



It's wild how well the GOP has been winning that small front of the culture war.
It's all in response to the Civil Rights movements. that's how something "originalism", which used to be a fringe ideology that was usually confined to the backroom of a John Birch Society meeting hall, became the backbone of modern conservatism. Everything the GOP has done since the 70s has been about appealing to people still angry they have to share the same fountain with black people.
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Old 5th August 2022, 01:32 PM   #326
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Now that the unemployment rate and jobs numbers are back to pre-pandemic levels,
R v W has been overturned, gas prices have continually fallen for 50+ days, what are the Republicans going to whine about? Inflation (which is world wide and due to factors outside the Dems' control)? More whining about CRT (which wasn't even taught in schools)?
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Old 5th August 2022, 01:59 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Now that the unemployment rate and jobs numbers are back to pre-pandemic levels,
R v W has been overturned, gas prices have continually fallen for 50+ days, what are the Republicans going to whine about? Inflation (which is world wide and due to factors outside the Dems' control)? More whining about CRT (which wasn't even taught in schools)?
You know what's not back to pre-pandemic levels? Covid infections and deaths.
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Old 5th August 2022, 04:19 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You know what's not back to pre-pandemic levels? Covid infections and deaths.
A friend's brother just died of Covid a few days ago.
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:37 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You know what's not back to pre-pandemic levels? Covid infections and deaths.
...when we utterly and completely fail to deal with a pandemic on training wheels, its probably not a wise thing to hope for things to go back to the way they were when we were even less aware, not to mention, completely unprepared, to deal with a minor, yet alone a serious, pandemic event. We can be certain, however, that much worse is waiting in the wings to take advantage of our arrogant ignorance...
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:47 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
A friend's brother just died of Covid a few days ago.
I have a handful of relatives who have died of this scourge, and unfortunately, a double handful of young relatives who are currently, and will likely for the rest of their lives, be dealing with chronic symptoms of long-covid which seem to become worse and worse over time. Blaming their politics, arrogant ignorance, and conspiracy-minded foolishness is no relief nor respite from their problems nor the rest of the family's pain of dealing with the loss and ongoing care of loved ones still suffering.
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Old 6th August 2022, 01:08 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
...when we were even less aware, not to mention, completely unprepared, to deal with a minor, yet alone a serious, pandemic event. We can be certain, however, that much worse is waiting in the wings to take advantage of our arrogant ignorance...
I still expect the response to something much worse to be much better. The main reason why people could so easily get apathetic about this one, or even think it was really nothing at all, was because it was so minor. Most people don't know more a half-dozen who've gotten it at all, and most of even those who do get it range from no symptoms at all to a few days of cold/flu symptoms. That makes it easy to dismiss as just another cold/flu, a normal part of life.
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Old 6th August 2022, 04:01 PM   #332
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Trump backed, anti democracy candidates may have done well in the primaries in Arizona but they look awful for the general. The Dems are ahead by about 10 points in all the races the Trump candidates won. In a state that rejected Trump, the decision to back Trump lapdogs may not age will for Republicans.
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Old 6th August 2022, 05:43 PM   #333
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Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
I still expect the response to something much worse to be much better. The main reason why people could so easily get apathetic about this one, or even think it was really nothing at all, was because it was so minor. Most people don't know more a half-dozen who've gotten it at all, and most of even those who do get it range from no symptoms at all to a few days of cold/flu symptoms. That makes it easy to dismiss as just another cold/flu, a normal part of life.
Husband was sick with severe cold symptoms last week but two at-home Covid tests (thanks Biden!) were negative. Daughter came down with same symptoms yesterday. Didn't bother with Covid test as same symptoms as dad who was the only person she'd been around for over a week as she works from home.
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Old 6th August 2022, 09:34 PM   #334
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Guy, the GOP as you once knew it is dead. Time to move on.
I agree with this. Unfortunately, the Democrats have not changed, so I'm stuck voting for gridlock.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:04 PM   #335
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Unfortunately, the Democrats have not changed
You mean they still want to make your country a better place to live for all its citizens, not just the rich ones? Outrageous.
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Old 6th August 2022, 10:16 PM   #336
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TBH the Republican party is slipping away from liberal democracy itself.

If they're willing to align themselves with the insurrectionist in chief, who seems to be prepared for an even more vicious second term, who has no respect for democracy and human rights. What else do we call these people? That might be a good enough reason to vote Democrat. Hell, the liberals in the DP have shown time and time again that they're more willing to negotiate with Republicans than progressives anyway.
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:00 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I agree with this. Unfortunately, the Democrats have not changed, so I'm stuck voting for gridlock.
No, you're not stuck with that at all. It's a choice. I can think of worse things to vote for than fighting climate change, investing in our infrastructure, making healthcare more affordable and accessible, supporting women's right to their own bodily autonomy, etc. A very big 'worse thing' is voting into Congress even more anti-democratic election deniers who are determined to put party over country and lead it merrily down the path to fascism.

So, are you still planning on voting for Masters who is a 2020 election denier even though you are "100% aligned against any candidate who crosses the line into 2020 Trutherismz"?
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:18 PM   #338
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
You mean they still want to make your country a better place to live for all its citizens, not just the rich ones? Outrageous.
Yes, that's it exactly. The supercilious attitude that they know absolutely what works and the other side is a bunch of greedy pirates.
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Old 6th August 2022, 11:31 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Yes, that's it exactly. The supercilious attitude that they know absolutely what works and the other side is a bunch of greedy pirates.
The former not at all, the latter (at least recently) absolutely.
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Old 7th August 2022, 12:46 AM   #340
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Brainster, why are you avoiding answering my question? I've asked you repeatedly.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:04 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
I agree with this. Unfortunately, the Democrats have not changed, so I'm stuck voting for gridlock.
Don't you think that the quickest way to reform the Democratic Party would be to have a Conservative Party that competes on moderate votes instead of depending on fear mongering and gerrymandering?

As long as Republicans prop up an openly anti-democratic Party, voting for the not anti-democratic is the only responsible thing to do, regardless of their policies.
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Old 7th August 2022, 09:44 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
...I can think of worse things to vote for than fighting climate change, investing in our infrastructure, making healthcare more affordable and accessible, supporting women's right to their own bodily autonomy, etc. A very big 'worse thing' is voting into Congress even more anti-democratic election deniers who are determined to put party over country and lead it merrily down the path to fascism....
You sound like you are saying that it eases your conscience to vote for people who talk about climate change action, investing in corporations that say they want to correct infrastructure deficiencies, those who talk about tinkering with healthcare around the edges to make it seem like they care about its high consumer costs, and send out campaign fliers about support for a woman's right to control her own body and how much they hate those trying to ignore what the people support while rigging their own primaries to insure corporate sycophants become the party's alternative to the Republican candidates, and then vote along with republicans to pass corporate welfare packages while undermining democracy and the people's needs and wants?

...Or are you talking about mythological Democrats who no longer exist out side of comic books and corporate fascism's (a)morality tales?
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Old 7th August 2022, 10:15 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
...As long as Republicans prop up an openly anti-democratic Party, voting for the not anti-democratic is the only responsible thing to do, regardless of their policies.
Your contentions would sound rational if the "Democratic" party actually relied upon democratic principles in their party's own primaries, but I guess a party that pays lip-service to democracy is somewhat, marginally, more democratic in their rhetorical aspirations than they are in their votes, and donors over voters actions (not to mention the neofascist Republitards).
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Last edited by Trakar; 7th August 2022 at 10:17 AM.
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Old 7th August 2022, 10:25 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Your contentions would sound rational if the "Democratic" party actually relied upon democratic principles in their party's own primaries, but I guess a party that pays lip-service to democracy is somewhat, marginally, more democratic in their rhetorical aspirations than they are in their votes, and donors over voters actions (not to mention the neofascist Republitards).
That feels a bit like a false equivalence. The Republicans are staging straight up authoritarian coups, but the Democrats are using some dirty tricks. What would you recommend voters do?
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Old 7th August 2022, 11:20 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That feels a bit like a false equivalence. The Republicans are staging straight up authoritarian coups, but the Democrats are using some dirty tricks. What would you recommend voters do?
Demand democracy from the group ostensibly advocating for increased democracy, or withhold votes from those who lie about such to secure their votes in anti-democratic processes. Losing several such votes will quickly reform the party, or kill it. Either is better than patronizing a party that is dedicated to serving capitalist donors ahead (or instead) of working class voters.
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Old 7th August 2022, 11:37 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Demand democracy from the group ostensibly advocating for increased democracy, or withhold votes from those who lie about such to secure their votes in anti-democratic processes. Losing several such votes will quickly reform the party, or kill it. Either is better than patronizing a party that is dedicated to serving capitalist donors ahead (or instead) of working class voters.
Is now a good time to engage in such high principles when the possibility exists that giving the Fascists power now could mean the end of Democracy? There is no time left in which to 'inspire' Dem pols to become saints. What do you do when the choice is between bad and badder?

This prissy punishing of the bad by rewarding the badder really would be 'turning the other cheek.' Or, more aptly, biting off one's nose to spite one's face.
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Old 7th August 2022, 12:14 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
Demand democracy from the group ostensibly advocating for increased democracy, or withhold votes from those who lie about such to secure their votes in anti-democratic processes. Losing several such votes will quickly reform the party, or kill it. Either is better than patronizing a party that is dedicated to serving capitalist donors ahead (or instead) of working class voters.
in a 2-party system, you always vote for the Lesser Evil; expecting an actually Good Choice is naive.
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Old 7th August 2022, 12:19 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Trakar View Post
You sound like you are saying that it eases your conscience to vote for people who talk about climate change action, investing in corporations that say they want to correct infrastructure deficiencies, those who talk about tinkering with healthcare around the edges to make it seem like they care about its high consumer costs, and send out campaign fliers about support for a woman's right to control her own body and how much they hate those trying to ignore what the people support while rigging their own primaries to insure corporate sycophants become the party's alternative to the Republican candidates, and then vote along with republicans to pass corporate welfare packages while undermining democracy and the people's needs and wants?

...Or are you talking about mythological Democrats who no longer exist out side of comic books and corporate fascism's (a)morality tales?
And you sound like someone who wouldn't recognize what Democrats do or have tried to do against staunch Republican opposition if meant acknowledging anything positive.

The Senate...or more accurately, the Dems... just passed the Inflation Reduction Act on climate change, healthcare, and corporate taxes against 100% Republican opposition:

Quote:
More than $300 billion would be invested in energy and climate reform, the largest federal clean energy investment in U.S. history.

...it includes $60 billion for growing renewable energy infrastructure in manufacturing like solar panels and wind turbines.

It also includes several tax credits for individuals on things like electric vehicles and making homes more energy efficient.
Quote:
On health reforms, the bill takes on making prescription drugs more affordable — but there are some limits.

The bill includes a historic measure that allows the federal health secretary to negotiate the prices of certain expensive drugs each year for Medicare.

But this won't impact every prescription drug or every patient, and it won't take effect quickly. The negotiations will take effect for 10 drugs covered by Medicare in 2026, increasing to 20 drugs in 2029.
Quote:
The legislation creates a 15% minimum tax for corporations making $1 billion or more in income, bringing in more than $300 billion in revenue.

A portion that got cut, though, is one that narrowed the carried interest tax loophole. Arizona Kyrsten Sinema agreed to sign onto the bill if this measure, which would have changed the way private equity income is taxed, was cut. Democrats said it would have brought in $14 billion in revenue.

Instead, a 1% excise tax on stock buybacks was introduced, and it could bring in roughly five times as much revenue as the carried interest measure.
You also ignore the passage of the Affordable Care Act which, thanks to the GOP, was gutted and who fought it from the very beginning.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:53 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Brainster, why are you avoiding answering my question? I've asked you repeatedly.
It's part of conditioning. Some people have been conditioned that "the other side" is evil, no matter what they do.

Also, for him to claim that the democrats haven't changed is a denial of reality. The policy platform has certainly evolved and, unfortunately, the fiscal policies have become more conservative due to the influx of people sick of the Republican party.
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Old 7th August 2022, 01:55 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post

You also ignore the passage of the Affordable Care Act which, thanks to the GOP, was gutted and who fought it from the very beginning.
Yep, and because it was gutted, it isn't working as it should and health care prices have been accelerating. Of course, prices would be greatly more if it wasn't passed, but the republicans don't care.
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Old 7th August 2022, 03:40 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
in a 2-party system, you always vote for the Lesser Evil; expecting an actually Good Choice is naive.
Vote for the lesser evil, but tell them that's what they are and what they should do better. Don't lower your standard for good choice down to "not quite as bad as literal Nazis" just because that's all that's on offer.
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Old 7th August 2022, 05:24 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Brainster, why are you avoiding answering my question? I've asked you repeatedly.
About Masters? I am not a fan, and I am hugely not a fan of Kelly either. I will not vote for Kelly, pure and simple. Masters could win my vote.

ETA, being the designated mole around here I do not always get around to everybody that whacks me, but I think I did mention that Kelly was a 100% no.
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Old 7th August 2022, 05:35 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It's part of conditioning. Some people have been conditioned that "the other side" is evil, no matter what they do.

Also, for him to claim that the democrats haven't changed is a denial of reality. The policy platform has certainly evolved and, unfortunately, the fiscal policies have become more conservative due to the influx of people sick of the Republican party.
That would be the argument for switching over but so far I just see the neocons (remember them?) taking that bridge--Bill Kristol, David Brooks, and the odious Jennifer Rubin. In fact the fiscal policies that the Democrats pursued this year were tremendously inflationary in the face of inflation the likes of which we have not seen for 40 years. I get it, I really do. Democrats feel they have to spend like drunken sailor every time they get control, but this was a really bad time to do that and the remedy is going to be really, really painful.
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Old 7th August 2022, 06:02 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That would be the argument for switching over but so far I just see the neocons (remember them?) taking that bridge--Bill Kristol, David Brooks, and the odious Jennifer Rubin. In fact the fiscal policies that the Democrats pursued this year were tremendously inflationary in the face of inflation the likes of which we have not seen for 40 years. I get it, I really do. Democrats feel they have to spend like drunken sailor every time they get control, but this was a really bad time to do that and the remedy is going to be really, really painful.
Oh nonsense. What policies exactly did they pursue are tremendously inflationary? Are you and economist? I have a minor in economics and my major was in International relations. The large spike in inflation can be directed to a spike in energy costs which can be directly attributed to policies that predate the 2020 election as well as market manipulation.

So tell me Doctor of Economics precisely what you are talking about. Please provide a link to your published papers on this subject.
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Old 7th August 2022, 09:12 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Oh nonsense. What policies exactly did they pursue are tremendously inflationary? Are you and economist? I have a minor in economics and my major was in International relations. The large spike in inflation can be directed to a spike in energy costs which can be directly attributed to policies that predate the 2020 election as well as market manipulation.

So tell me Doctor of Economics precisely what you are talking about. Please provide a link to your published papers on this subject.
Lol, I get that as a econ minor you might be intimidated by a finance major. Econ is finance with lots fewer formulas and hence lots less rigor.

I guess your argument about "policies that predate the 2020 election" refers to the stimulus checks? Yes, you are right these were tremendously inflationary. Trump issued two and Biden one and probably one overall would have been best. But certainly the last was a mistake, and Biden's ridiculous Build Back Better would have been a disaster.

The cure for fiscal stimulus in the face of inflation is monetary contraction (i.e. interest rate increases). Been there, done that, see 1981.
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Old 8th August 2022, 06:15 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
That would be the argument for switching over but so far I just see the neocons (remember them?) taking that bridge--Bill Kristol, David Brooks, and the odious Jennifer Rubin. In fact the fiscal policies that the Democrats pursued this year were tremendously inflationary in the face of inflation the likes of which we have not seen for 40 years. I get it, I really do. Democrats feel they have to spend like drunken sailor every time they get control, but this was a really bad time to do that and the remedy is going to be really, really painful.
Yet why does the debt grow dramatically under Republicans? Reagan? Bush? Trump? They all added significantly to the debt last time I checked. (As did Obama)
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Old 8th August 2022, 06:24 AM   #357
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When a finance major doesn't understand how recessions are even determined, much less caused, I don't have a lot of confidence that they understand the causes or solutions to inflation either.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:51 AM   #358
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Lol, I get that as a econ minor you might be intimidated by a finance major. Econ is finance with lots fewer formulas and hence lots less rigor.

I guess your argument about "policies that predate the 2020 election" refers to the stimulus checks? Yes, you are right these were tremendously inflationary. Trump issued two and Biden one and probably one overall would have been best. But certainly the last was a mistake, and Biden's ridiculous Build Back Better would have been a disaster.

The cure for fiscal stimulus in the face of inflation is monetary contraction (i.e. interest rate increases). Been there, done that, see 1981.
How about and award winning economist?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Z7tEc5t-Wg
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:18 AM   #359
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Lol, I get that as a econ minor you might be intimidated by a finance major. Econ is finance with lots fewer formulas and hence lots less rigor.

I guess your argument about "policies that predate the 2020 election" refers to the stimulus checks? Yes, you are right these were tremendously inflationary. Trump issued two and Biden one and probably one overall would have been best. But certainly the last was a mistake, and Biden's ridiculous Build Back Better would have been a disaster.

The cure for fiscal stimulus in the face of inflation is monetary contraction (i.e. interest rate increases). Been there, done that, see 1981.
Nope, I'm talking about the lack of investment in energy resources. The argument that inflation is caused by deficits is only partially true. When in fact foundational commodities are the biggest source. And no commodity has a greater impact on the price of every other product than the price of energy. The US and most nations have had basically a laissez-faire attitude about energy. This leads to market manipulation when it is possible.

BTW, Interest rates already skyrocketed long before 1981. And those policies aren't made by the administration, but the Fed. Should be noted that Volcker was appointed not by Ronald Reagan but Jimmy Carter.

We need to make energy cheap again, but that cannot be done easily. Not in a system when companies can manipulate the market as they have been able to do.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:26 AM   #360
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If anyone would think about it for a second, they would have to realize that deficits can only cause inflation if the money raised is not invested. Tax cuts financed by deficits clearly raise inflation,as every Budget Office calculation ever has shown: tax cuts never pay for themselves in increased economic activity.
The Covid spending on workers who had to stay at home can't raise inflation, since the workers would have gotten way more money if they could have performed their work.
Gl
And spending on Green Energy (or staffing the IRS) can't raise inflation, as these are investments that will pay out more than they cost.
The problem is that in the US, the State is supposed to take all the risk but is not allowed any of the profits: by all logic, the Federal Government ought to own a large or even majority share in Tesla - but that is not how government grants work in this country.
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