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Old 8th August 2022, 01:24 PM   #841
dudalb
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
It doesn't matter.
You want an overwhelming strong Central Government with no counterbalance.
Count me out on that. it just ain't gonna happen.
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:07 PM   #842
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think far more radically than most Democrats although it's not necessarily more liberal. I think we should get rid of not just the EC and the Senate but the States themselves. I see the States as a silly division that might have made sense in 1789 but makes very little today. I still believe there is a need for county governments, but I see State governments redundant and get in the way of progress.
Define Progress.
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:14 PM   #843
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Define Progress.
How about we start with civil rights, policing standards and a woman's "right to choose" being uniform throughout the entire country?

That's what we have here in NZ, with a strong, democratically and proportionally representative central government, and "laws of the land" that are the same throughout the country. Same system operates in Australia, Switzerland, Germany and 91 other countries in the world!
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:37 PM   #844
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You want an overwhelming strong Central Government with no counterbalance.
Count me out on that. it just ain't gonna happen.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Define Progress.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
How about we start with civil rights, policing standards and a woman's "right to choose" being uniform throughout the entire country?

That what we have here in NZ, with a strong, democratically and proportionally representative central government, and "laws of the land" that are the same throughout the country. Same in Australia, Switzerland Germany and 91 other countries in the world!
Cooky provides a good answer.

I'm sick of South Carolina using non-union legislation and tax breaks to lure factories from Washington State. Avoiding pollution standards by moving. Texas Governor forcibly sending recent immigrants to liberal states and cities. New Jersey Governor stopping the build on a new tunnel to New York.

I don't like buying expensive out of state fishing licenses or paying out of state tuition. People in southern Washington buying their cars in Oregon to avoid taxes. And people in Oregon having phony residences in Washington to avoid taxes in Oregon. The list goes on and on.

I understand dudalb issue about balance. That is a fair point. But it is far more than a counterbalance today. States have tipped that scale. States are used to divide, not unite us.
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:41 PM   #845
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Define Progress.
Not owing black people as property isn't enough?
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:46 PM   #846
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Not owning black people as property isn't enough?
FIFY
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:10 PM   #847
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It appears the FBI has executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/polit...ump/index.html
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:14 PM   #848
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Originally Posted by HawksFan View Post
It appears the FBI has executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/polit...ump/index.html
That's awesome.
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:14 PM   #849
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Originally Posted by HawksFan View Post
It appears the FBI has executed a search warrant at Mar-a-Lago.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/08/polit...ump/index.html
Also posted in Trump presidency thread.
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:22 PM   #850
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The FBI broke into the Orange Excresence’s safe, as reported by the orange one himself
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:55 PM   #851
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Originally Posted by Paul2 View Post
The FBI broke into the Orange Excresence’s safe, as reported by the orange one himself
And it was full of Big Macs, Diet Coke and Cheetos!
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Old 8th August 2022, 04:59 PM   #852
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
And it was full of Big Macs, Diet Coke and Cheetos!
Probably all they found.


I have to wonder what they were after given Trump’s penchant for destroying documents.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:03 PM   #853
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:15 PM   #854
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Probably all they found.


I have to wonder what they were after given Trump’s penchant for destroying documents.
A valid point, however Trump also has a penchant for ******* things up.
And a penchant for believing that he can outsmart everyone because he is a super genius.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:18 PM   #855
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
A valid point, however Trump also has a penchant for ******* things up.
And a penchant for believing that he can outsmart everyone because he is a super genius.
That too. But it's amazing that someone like him has avoided accountability for so long.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:44 PM   #856
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Probably all they found.





I have to wonder what they were after given Trump’s penchant for destroying documents.
As mentioned in the Trump thread... It is possible that this was related to the theft of classified documents from a while ago. Maybe they expect to find other items taken from the government and stored at Mar a Lago.

Or alternatively... Does Trump run any of his political stuff from Mar a Lago (things like his superpacs). Those might have documents that are relevant (even if Trump hasn't had a chance to handle them personally)

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Old 8th August 2022, 06:00 PM   #857
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
As mentioned in the Trump thread... It is possible that this was related to the theft of classified documents from a while ago. Maybe they expect to find other items taken from the government and stored at Mar a Lago.

Or alternatively... Does Trump run any of his political stuff from Mar a Lago (things like his superpacs). Those might have documents that are relevant (even if Trump hasn't had a chance to handle them personally)

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OK. I'm not saying they didn't have a reason to execute a search warrant. I'm just being cynical. There seems to be substantial evidence that Trump committed crimes and here we are. Trump charged with nothing and saying he's going to run again. The man seems to get away with everything.
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Old 8th August 2022, 06:37 PM   #858
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
OK. I'm not saying they didn't have a reason to execute a search warrant. I'm just being cynical. There seems to be substantial evidence that Trump committed crimes and here we are. Trump charged with nothing and saying he's going to run again. The man seems to get away with everything.
True. And some pessimism is warranted. (The U.S. does have a poor history of dealing with white-collar crimes, especially those involving wealthy people.)

But on the plus side, it is more pressure than he's been under in a while.

(Side note: It does appear that the search warrant was related to the theft of classified documents rather than the Jan6 terrorist attacks. I have published a reference in the Trump thread.)
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:14 PM   #859
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
And it was full of Big Macs, Diet Coke and Cheetos!
The covfeve... you forgot the covfeve!!
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:30 AM   #860
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That's a rather broad brush you're painting with when you consider 7 million more did NOT vote for the orange anus than did. It's our crappy EC, not "us lot" that put him into office.
If you have a system that unfairly biases to the minority, but the majority cannot do anything about it, then you do not have a democracy.
I agree that the EC is not a democratic institution which is why it needs to be abolished.

Quote:
Or if there does not exist sufficient drive to fix things, then accept the system the nation as a whole is clearly sufficiently satisfied with.
What makes you think the "nation as a whole is clearly sufficiently satisfied" with the EC? A 2020 Gallup poll found that 61% of Americans want to abolish the EC.

In order to amend the Constitution, which is the only way to get rid of the EC, two-thirds of both Houses of Congress have to vote for an amendment proposal first. No Republican will vote for it because it's a system that benefits red states. There is no way to get 2/3rds of both houses to vote for it. Even if it did happen, it takes 3/4 of the states to approve it. Again, never going to happen because no red state will vote for it. So a minority of those in Congress and a minority of states are preventing it. That is clearly not 'the nation as a whole'.

Quote:
A long time ago a People rose up to establish a better system. Wars were fought over and for it. But since then it seems a general apathy has taken hold, all while an accelerating decline is underway.

I'll say it again. A People gets the Government it deserves.
So you suggest a revolution to get rid of the EC?
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:40 AM   #861
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I mean sure, but they won't find anything more incriminating then everyone involved openly bragging for a couple of years about doing what they are accused of doing.

At this point the January 6 committee couldn't prove water is wet while water is sitting there going "Lookit how we I am."
Wow. They have done a tremendous job of proving Trump's and others' instigation, responsibility and/or complicity in the Jan. 6 attempted coup. They have no power to bring charges or prosecute but the DOJ is certainly paying attention to what the J6C has provided. And despite all the negative nay-saying a while back about the DOJ being weak and doing nothing...that's been shown to be false, too.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:39 AM   #862
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree that the EC is not a democratic institution which is why it needs to be abolished.



What makes you think the "nation as a whole is clearly sufficiently satisfied" with the EC? A 2020 Gallup poll found that 61% of Americans want to abolish the EC.

In order to amend the Constitution, which is the only way to get rid of the EC, two-thirds of both Houses of Congress have to vote for an amendment proposal first. No Republican will vote for it because it's a system that benefits red states. There is no way to get 2/3rds of both houses to vote for it. Even if it did happen, it takes 3/4 of the states to approve it. Again, never going to happen because no red state will vote for it. So a minority of those in Congress and a minority of states are preventing it. That is clearly not 'the nation as a whole'.



So you suggest a revolution to get rid of the EC?
Technically the multi-state compact to award their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner could effectively eliminate the EC providing a result other than the popular vote, if enough join so that they control 270 electoral votes. But I don't really like how that would probably play out, as the states not joining the compact argue that "they don't get to vote anymore" despite that the votes of their citizens are counted. Nuance and math doesn't play well with divisive politics.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:55 AM   #863
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. They have done a tremendous job of proving Trump's and others' instigation, responsibility and/or complicity in the Jan. 6 attempted coup. They have no power to bring charges or prosecute but the DOJ is certainly paying attention to what the J6C has provided. And despite all the negative nay-saying a while back about the DOJ being weak and doing nothing...that's been shown to be false, too.
And the only thing missing is absolutely any consequence to anyone in power. I'll believe it when the cuffs come out for the sitting congressmen who planned and directed this treason and openly continue to do so to this day.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:24 AM   #864
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Wow. They have done a tremendous job of proving Trump's and others' instigation, responsibility and/or complicity in the Jan. 6 attempted coup. They have no power to bring charges or prosecute but the DOJ is certainly paying attention to what the J6C has provided. And despite all the negative nay-saying a while back about the DOJ being weak and doing nothing...that's been shown to be false, too.
Oh I'm sorry I must have, yet again, missed all the comeuppance that any elected official has endured.

I just see yet more "Oh but you see this is just making it worse for them when the hammer does come down... any day now. Any day now. Any day now."
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:57 AM   #865
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Technically the multi-state compact to award their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner could effectively eliminate the EC providing a result other than the popular vote, if enough join so that they control 270 electoral votes. But I don't really like how that would probably play out, as the states not joining the compact argue that "they don't get to vote anymore" despite that the votes of their citizens are counted. Nuance and math doesn't play well with divisive politics.
I don't think that will survive a court challenge. A handful of states would in effect be creating their own electoral college.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:22 AM   #866
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
I don't think that will survive a court challenge. A handful of states would in effect be creating their own electoral college.

But…States Rights!! Every state can choose its own method to allocate EC votes!




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Old 9th August 2022, 07:23 AM   #867
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
But…States Rights!! Every state can choose its own method to allocate EC votes!
States can do whatever they do to ensure Republicans win since that's the only way they can win.

We don't have to pretend, even jokingly there is any other argument.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:26 AM   #868
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
States can do whatever they do to ensure Republicans win since that's the only way they can win.

We don't have to pretend, even jokingly there is any other argument.
There are some weirdos who oppose things like the 17th amendment out of principle.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:36 AM   #869
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Technically the multi-state compact to award their electoral votes to the national popular vote winner could effectively eliminate the EC providing a result other than the popular vote, if enough join so that they control 270 electoral votes. But I don't really like how that would probably play out, as the states not joining the compact argue that "they don't get to vote anymore" despite that the votes of their citizens are counted. Nuance and math doesn't play well with divisive politics.
Or, more likely...

- A republican-led state that HAD at some point joined the compact finds that a Democrat won the popular vote, but that the old distribution of electoral college votes would give the win to a republican presidential nominee

- The republican-led state then passes a last-minute "This is how we are allocating our votes" law after the election but before they submit their list of electors
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:52 AM   #870
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Let's get even more in the dirt.

The handpicked toadies Trump put on SCOTUS won't let it happen, and almost certainly wouldn't even give us the courtesy of pretending it wasn't about protecting the Republican Party from becoming rightfully irrelevant.
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:25 PM   #871
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Or, more likely...

- A republican-led state that HAD at some point joined the compact finds that a Democrat won the popular vote, but that the old distribution of electoral college votes would give the win to a republican presidential nominee

- The republican-led state then passes a last-minute "This is how we are allocating our votes" law after the election but before they submit their list of electors
Technically, the states get to define the "Manner" by which EC electors are appointed signed, which is not exactly the same as getting to say who wins the EC in that state, especially after an election. However, given the current and near-future SCOTUS, this probably won't matter.
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Old 9th August 2022, 02:03 PM   #872
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
But…States Rights!! Every state can choose its own method to allocate EC votes!




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ANd that is the most practical way to defang the EC, since getting rid of it is impossible.
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Old 9th August 2022, 02:05 PM   #873
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I repeat if things are as bad as some people in this thread think only logical thing to do is to arm up and prepare for Civil war 2.
Question is how much of it is real and how much of is just angst filled whining,something a lot of ideologues of any stripe are prone to do.
But maybe we should move this whole discussion to antother thread.....not against a little topic drift,and I think the mods are are a bit too strect there, but this abstract discussion has taken onver the threatd.
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:58 PM   #874
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I agree that the EC is not a democratic institution which is why it needs to be abolished.



What makes you think the "nation as a whole is clearly sufficiently satisfied" with the EC? A 2020 Gallup poll found that 61% of Americans want to abolish the EC.

In order to amend the Constitution, which is the only way to get rid of the EC, two-thirds of both Houses of Congress have to vote for an amendment proposal first. No Republican will vote for it because it's a system that benefits red states. There is no way to get 2/3rds of both houses to vote for it. Even if it did happen, it takes 3/4 of the states to approve it. Again, never going to happen because no red state will vote for it. So a minority of those in Congress and a minority of states are preventing it. That is clearly not 'the nation as a whole'.



So you suggest a revolution to get rid of the EC?
I'm well enough aware of the multifarious, confounding factors that militate against political progress in the US and A. The majority has its work cut out for it, doesn't it?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:30 PM   #875
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh I'm sorry I must have, yet again, missed all the comeuppance that any elected official has endured.

I just see yet more "Oh but you see this is just making it worse for them when the hammer does come down... any day now. Any day now. Any day now."
Yes, I know the Danny Downer routine quite well by now. It hasn't happened yet so it's not going to, right? The fact that the J6C has provided overwhelming evidence and that the DOJ has been, if fact, investigating all along in the normal way, from the ground up, resulting in an unprecedented raid on Mar-a-Lago yesterday is just further proof that no one will be held accountable.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:37 PM   #876
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
I'm well enough aware of the multifarious, confounding factors that militate against political progress in the US and A. The majority has its work cut out for it, doesn't it?
Most Americans do not want Trump anywhere near the WH ever again. The majority did not vote for him in 2016 either, but we got him anyway thanks to the EC...which the majority of Americans cannot do much about thanks to the Constitution.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:54 PM   #877
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Or, more likely...

- A republican-led state that HAD at some point joined the compact finds that a Democrat won the popular vote, but that the old distribution of electoral college votes would give the win to a republican presidential nominee

- The republican-led state then passes a last-minute "This is how we are allocating our votes" law after the election but before they submit their list of electors


You can't do it post election. In many ways the GOP tried that in this last election.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:02 PM   #878
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They might be tempted to award EC votes according to the party of the elected rep of each congressional district, but then I think that could subject gerrymandering practices to more federal scrutiny and they know it.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:01 AM   #879
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South-central Pennsylvania Congressman Scott Perry (R-10) says the FBI seized his cellphone Tuesday.

Very probably in response to Perry's Jan 6th activism, but right now that's speculation.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:37 AM   #880
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
South-central Pennsylvania Congressman Scott Perry (R-10) says the FBI seized his cellphone Tuesday.

Very probably in response to Perry's Jan 6th activism, but right now that's speculation.
Perry asked for a pardon from Trump according to Hutchinson. He denied it. Hmmmm...whom to believe? A Big Lie supporter who was a major player in the attempt to overturn the election or Hutchinson whose testimony has proved to be very credible? There's a reason he asked for a pardon.
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