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Old 8th August 2022, 12:53 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You can argue that there are no gods therefore there is no evil if you wish but then it wouldn't make sense to ask for an answer to the problem of evil.
Are you done with smoke screens and gaslighting yet?

What Darat was saying is that the only two believers in the Abrahamic goddevilthingy in this thread, Enre and yourself, have opposite positions on this matter.
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Old 8th August 2022, 12:58 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Your translator is clearly on the fritz. This pile of rule 12 violation didn't address a single word that you quoted.

Of course, in order to address the post, you would have to understand it and clearly you don't because you are not the legend in your own mind that you think you are.
Are you done with hand-waving yet?
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Old 8th August 2022, 01:25 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by GDon View Post
When discussing free-will, people tend to ignore the "will" part. "Will" is a biological function that can only exist in a deterministic universe. If the universe was random, how can we talk about "will" or "choice"? But in a deterministic universe, will becomes one of the factors that determines outcomes. After all, how can one choose other than what they do in fact choose?

Daniel Dennett is an atheist philosopher who is a compatiblist. That is, he believes that free-will and determinism are compatible. He discusses it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joCOWaaTj4A
I'm not convinced, but that was a short presentation. Someone recommended me a book from his called something like From Bacteria to Bach -the History of the Mind-. I had started reading Darwin's Dangerous Idea but left it, surely because some other thing at the moment caught my attention.

There are other people there talking about free will, would you recommend watching all videos of the series?
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Old 8th August 2022, 02:32 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes. Either all choices are made by God or there is free will.


Free will doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of your choices.
True enough that the consequences are not a freedom issue, and I should not have brought up law here, while meaning just that freedom is not visible if one chooses to comply.

But we're not talking here about heaven and hell and what happens after you make a choice, but miracle and intervention. If the possibility of miracle and intervention is there, what appears to be freedom is just what is allowed, always conditional on an unknown and unpredictable decision by a god who can overrule it.

If God is nice, and doesn't get his panties in a twist very often, and just does most of his miracles at the altar, it's not a bad deal, and maybe it's free enough to pass most of the time, but if God acts on our world, the rest of the argument is about the finer points of administration and price.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:06 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But we're not talking here about heaven and hell and what happens after you make a choice, but miracle and intervention. If the possibility of miracle and intervention is there, what appears to be freedom is just what is allowed, always conditional on an unknown and unpredictable decision by a god who can overrule it.
You are conflating freedom of choice with free will.

One could make the consequences of a choice so unpleasant that most people would not dare to make that choice. That would imply that you don't have freedom of choice.

However, if somebody is determined to make a certain choice no matter what the consequences, then nobody can stop them because they supposedly have free will.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:48 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are conflating freedom of choice with free will.

One could make the consequences of a choice so unpleasant that most people would not dare to make that choice. That would imply that you don't have freedom of choice.

However, if somebody is determined to make a certain choice no matter what the consequences, then nobody can stop them because they supposedly have free will.
I'm with you almost all the way. True enough nobody can stop them except when, according to some, a god that can actually step in and alter reality performs a miracle which changes the very circumstances under which the will is exercised.
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Old 8th August 2022, 05:58 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
People can make evil choices. The End.
Only because God, if He existed as He claims, made Evil possible. If there was no evil we could not choose it.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:44 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I'm with you almost all the way. True enough nobody can stop them except when, according to some, a god that can actually step in and alter reality performs a miracle which changes the very circumstances under which the will is exercised.
Sure, a god could do all sorts of things (including taking away somebody's free will) if he wanted to nullify somebody's choices.

Whether he does or not is a matter of speculation but according to the parable of weeds I referred to earlier, it seems that God's policy is to allow people to make whatever choices they are going to make then deal with it in the next life. That would suggest that intervention in this life is considerably rarer.
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Old 8th August 2022, 08:46 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
Only because God, if He existed as He claims, made Evil possible. If there was no evil we could not choose it.
If God made it impossible to make evil choices then he would just have created bots.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:35 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Are you done with hand-waving yet?
That's sort of his shtick.
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Old 8th August 2022, 09:56 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I'm not convinced, but that was a short presentation.
It was, but it summarizes Dennett approach to focusing on the "will" part rather than the "free" part to resolve determinism and free-will, which I find personally convincing.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
There are other people there talking about free will, would you recommend watching all videos of the series?
Just the ones that agree with me! I haven't seen the others so can't recommend, I'm sorry.
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:09 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Foster Zygote View Post
That's sort of his shtick.
It's not surprising that you would side with the rule 12 violator. Expecting somebody to actually deal with the substance of my post is a serious crime.
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Old 8th August 2022, 10:50 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If God made it impossible to make evil choices then he would just have created bots.
Most Christians I've asked seem to think sin doesn't exist in heaven, so is everyone up there a robot?
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Old 8th August 2022, 11:40 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
Most Christians I've asked seem to think sin doesn't exist in heaven, so is everyone up there a robot?
Are you seriously suggesting that if somebody is not a would be evil doer then they are a robot?
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:12 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that if somebody is not a would be evil doer then they are a robot?
No, that's what you are suggesting.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If God made it impossible to make evil choices then he would just have created bots.
So which is it? Are people in heaven robots, or is the ability to make evil choices not necessary for free will?
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:19 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
No, that's what you are suggesting.



So which is it? Are people in heaven robots, or is the ability to make evil choices not necessary for free will?
I don't believe that you are genuinely interpreting my statement that way.

Obviously would be evil doers would be weeded out before they could get to Heaven.
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:17 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If God made it impossible to make evil choices then he would just have created bots.
Made a bit of a mistake in the GoE didn't they. Perhaps they should have let A&E know what good and evil was beforehand?
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Old 9th August 2022, 03:14 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
Most Christians I've asked seem to think sin doesn't exist in heaven, so is everyone up there a robot?
No, example; Allah/God is never do evil, He is always good and just (justice is also goodness). This does not make Allah a robot. It shows that he is a very good being. People in Paradise will always choose goodness with their free will.

Peace

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Old 9th August 2022, 04:55 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't believe that you are genuinely interpreting my statement that way.

Obviously would be evil doers would be weeded out before they could get to Heaven.
Then why go through the whole silly rigamarole? If God is all-seeing just why does He not just get on with it?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:11 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If people can't make evil choices (your position) then there isn't a question to answer.
Another non sequitur and a strawman.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:12 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, example; Allah/God is never do evil, He is always good and just (justice is also goodness). This does not make Allah a robot. It shows that he is a very good being. People in Paradise will always choose goodness with their free will.

Peace
Nice to see you back, to remind you still waiting to hear your response to:

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
My Turkish article translated with machine:

https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611966.0

Peace
I was bored so...

"....his world is the realm of testing, of confronting oneself, and it is also the place where some small punishments or rewards begin to be offered. And every adversity or happiness that happens in this world functions both as a test and as a way of giving the person what they deserve. ..."
Three year old girl, raped multiple times and beheaded: https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/so...-girl-in-india

What lesson was she learning, what testing was she undergoing, how did she deserve to be raped and killed?
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:13 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I don't believe that you are genuinely interpreting my statement that way.

Obviously would be evil doers would be weeded out before they could get to Heaven.
Not according to the Christians.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:58 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not according to the Christians.
What do "the Christians" say and which sect are you referring to?
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:17 AM   #144
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... and Emre_1974tr, when you're done replying to Darat, how about you reply to me too?

Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
So it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.
Originally Posted by Emre_1974tr View Post
No, there he is a servant directly commissioned by God. It's just like the angels of death. Or doomsday workers.

Otherwise, nobody can slap anybody for their faith:


https://www.answering-christianity.c...p?topic=3774.0
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Who brought up slapping?

Your post does nothing to counter the fact that it's okay to kill someone because they might cause someone to disbelieve. Not will, did, or had, but might.

I'm not going to go to all the sites that you post. I went to one and that's more than enough.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:26 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What do "the Christians" say and which sect are you referring to?
RC, CofE, Methodists, GOC, EOC, Baptist and many, many more.

Jesus died, god forgives, if you accept Jesus (and often a few other requirements baptism and so on) then you'll get to heaven. Doing something evil does not bar you from heaven, not believing in Jesus/church doctrine does that.

Very surprised you didn't know this as it is a major tenant of all the organised Christian churches I know about and they cover most of the Christians in the world.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:57 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
RC, CofE, Methodists, GOC, EOC, Baptist and many, many more.

Jesus died, god forgives, if you accept Jesus (and often a few other requirements baptism and so on) then you'll get to heaven. Doing something evil does not bar you from heaven, not believing in Jesus/church doctrine does that.

Very surprised you didn't know this as it is a major tenant of all the organised Christian churches I know about and they cover most of the Christians in the world.
Don't forget the RC's Last Rites ritual. It's a Get Out of Hell free card if you are lucky enough to find someone authorized to mumble it over your dying body. (That's always seemed a bit arbitrary and unfair to me. But that's just me.)
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Old 9th August 2022, 10:16 AM   #147
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You don't have to get into the finer details of free will (or any arguments on its existence) to see that it's a big distraction on the problem of evil.

Suppose a not-nice person is on their way to do an unspecified Very Bad Thing™ to their intended victim. I am in a position where I could very easily prevent this act from occurring, either peacefully or violently. Which of the following is the morally superior option?

A: I prevent the Very Bad Thing™ from occurring.
B: I do nothing, thus maximizing the free will of the not-nice person.

If A is true, then God cannot be maximally good, as he allows evil acts to occur every single day, unprevented.
If B is true, then it would be morally impermissible for anyone to ever interfere with any evil act. No matter how bad the action is, you just gotta look the other way.
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Old 9th August 2022, 11:03 AM   #148
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It's all about the timing. If you repent at the right moment, you're good.

It's like putting off that pesky dentist appointment and then getting the root canal. You should have thought ahead.
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Old 9th August 2022, 11:32 AM   #149
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Graham Greene's Brighton Rock is pretty good on this. It's partly about the difficulty, not to say impossibility, in genuinely repenting at the last moment at the end of a wicked life simply because you think it is in your interests to do so.
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Irony View Post
No, that's what you are suggesting.



So which is it? Are people in heaven robots, or is the ability to make evil choices not necessary for free will?
I would presume that the "people" in heaven are not the people we think of as people. Whether they have or need free will is irrelevant. The question is whether when they were people before they were dead they had actual free will. Psion10 says they do. I contend that although they have what looks like and functions as free will most of the time it's not quite really free will if a conscious interventionist god is in charge not only of the afterlife but the world itself.

We've been going round and round on this in what looks like an ever-narrowing spiral, to the point where I don't think there's much more to bother with, since I don't think such a god exists anyway. It's likely a distinction without a difference.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:15 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
RC, CofE, Methodists, GOC, EOC, Baptist and many, many more.

Jesus died, god forgives, if you accept Jesus (and often a few other requirements baptism and so on) then you'll get to heaven. Doing something evil does not bar you from heaven, not believing in Jesus/church doctrine does that.

Very surprised you didn't know this as it is a major tenant of all the organised Christian churches I know about and they cover most of the Christians in the world.
That is a different topic altogether.

A common theme in the gospels is separating the "sheep from the goats". A "goat" can be forgiven and become a "sheep" but absolutely nothing in the gospels suggests that any of the goats will go to heaven.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:57 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a different topic altogether.

A common theme in the gospels is separating the "sheep from the goats". A "goat" can be forgiven and become a "sheep" but absolutely nothing in the gospels suggests that any of the goats will go to heaven.
Nor yet sheep.
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Old 9th August 2022, 06:47 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I would presume that the "people" in heaven are not the people we think of as people. Whether they have or need free will is irrelevant. The question is whether when they were people before they were dead they had actual free will. Psion10 says they do. I contend that although they have what looks like and functions as free will most of the time it's not quite really free will if a conscious interventionist god is in charge not only of the afterlife but the world itself.

We've been going round and round on this in what looks like an ever-narrowing spiral, to the point where I don't think there's much more to bother with, since I don't think such a god exists anyway. It's likely a distinction without a difference.
LOL Somebody always tries to close the discussion AFTER they have had their say. Never before.

And of course, you tried to pull a bait and switch by saying "there is no god therefore there is no free will" as if that was your argument all along.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:42 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
LOL Somebody always tries to close the discussion AFTER they have had their say. Never before.

And of course, you tried to pull a bait and switch by saying "there is no god therefore there is no free will" as if that was your argument all along.
No to the second part. I am of the opinion that there is no god, and therefore there is no god impeding free will.
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Old 9th August 2022, 08:52 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
No to the second part. I am of the opinion that there is no god, and therefore there is no god impeding free will.
Which is still not your earlier argument.

You have repeatedly claimed that if God can override free will then there is no free will. I have pointed out that just one act that is not free will doesn't mean that every act is not free will.

Instead of addressing this point, you do what many do - you wait awhile then repeat your earlier point as if the counter argument has never been made.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:09 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Which is still not your earlier argument.

You have repeatedly claimed that if God can override free will then there is no free will. I have pointed out that just one act that is not free will doesn't mean that every act is not free will.

Instead of addressing this point, you do what many do - you wait awhile then repeat your earlier point as if the counter argument has never been made.
I recognize the counter-argument. I just don't agree with it. I think it would be quite possible for a god to grant free will. But to do that would require a kept promise not to intervene. It's not a matter of whether he can but whether he does.
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Old 9th August 2022, 09:12 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I recognize the counter-argument. I just don't agree with it. I think it would be quite possible for a god to grant free will. But to do that would require a kept promise not to intervene. It's not a matter of whether he can but whether he does.
Who makes up these rules? There is no argument that God gave no free will whatsoever.
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Old 10th August 2022, 12:59 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is a different topic altogether.

A common theme in the gospels is separating the "sheep from the goats". A "goat" can be forgiven and become a "sheep" but absolutely nothing in the gospels suggests that any of the goats will go to heaven.
It is quite clear that for most if not all Christian churches that being evil doesn't stop you from being with god for eternity. So one answer to the "problem of evil" is that there isn't a problem because god is happy spending eternity with evil people as long as they have followed the right procedures. It's just us silly humans that think there is anything wrong with evil going unpunished.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:03 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It is quite clear that for most if not all Christian churches that being evil doesn't stop you from being with god for eternity.
That is the exact opposite of what "most if not all Christian churches" teach (at least, the ones I have heard of).

"Lest ye repent . . ."
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Old 10th August 2022, 10:13 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Wow, that's pretty evil.
No you see killing someone is not in and of itself evil, because you are just sending them to heaven or hell as they deserve. Hence the traditional way to deal with heretics "Slay them all, the Lord will know his own".
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