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Old 9th August 2022, 12:06 PM   #1
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Teslaís self-driving technology fails to detect children in the road, tests find

Tesla still having problems

Teslaís self-driving technology fails to detect children in the road, tests find
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Old 9th August 2022, 12:12 PM   #2
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And California isn't happy with Tesla either

Quote:
Tesla Inc (TSLA.O), the electric car company run by billionaire Elon Musk, has been accused by a California state transportation regulator of falsely advertising its Autopilot and Full Self-Driving features as providing autonomous vehicle control.
https://www.reuters.com/business/aut...ng-2022-08-05/
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Old 9th August 2022, 01:04 PM   #3
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And motorcycles ...

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/300...-motorcyclists
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
A long time ago I was in a taxi (as a passenger) and the taxi was waiting to make a left turn across a two-lane road. Somehow the driver failed to see a motorcycle that was coming the other way and had the right-of way and crashed into it. So it's also a problem for human drivers. Motorcycles are easier to miss than cars or larger vehicles.
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
A long time ago I was in a taxi (as a passenger) and the taxi was waiting to make a left turn across a two-lane road. Somehow the driver failed to see a motorcycle that was coming the other way and had the right-of way and crashed into it. So it's also a problem for human drivers. Motorcycles are easier to miss than cars or larger vehicles.
Mmmm, and the driver might well have got cited/points on his licence/prosecuted ...

What's the penalty situation for Tesla?
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Old 9th August 2022, 04:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Mmmm, and the driver might well have got cited/points on his licence/prosecuted ...

What's the penalty situation for Tesla?
Hopefully they (or their liability insurance) will have to compensate the victim or the victim's next-of-kin.

In fact I'd be surprised if that hasn't already happened. Further, the NHTSA is investigating the accidents, as is the state of California. So it does sound like there are some consequences. I don't know what the investigations will lead to, ultimately.
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Old 9th August 2022, 05:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
A long time ago I was in a taxi (as a passenger) and the taxi was waiting to make a left turn across a two-lane road. Somehow the driver failed to see a motorcycle that was coming the other way and had the right-of way and crashed into it. So it's also a problem for human drivers. Motorcycles are easier to miss than cars or larger vehicles.
I forget what it's called but at "how to be a safe rider" class they taught us about a visual effect that comes into play here too: it's easier to see movement across your vision than to see movement towards or away. That is, the slowly growing or decreasing visual size of something is less noticeable than clear movement. Riders have had to be careful at intersections forever.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:42 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Mmmm, and the driver might well have got cited/points on his licence/prosecuted ...

What's the penalty situation for Tesla?
Because "who can we blame for this?" should take precedence over "how can we make our roads safer?"

Seriously, this kind of sensationalist reporting is just low-grade claptrap. The reality is that almost 400 children aged 15 and under are killed yearly when struck by a vehicle., and a further, 100 kids under age 4 are killed each year (with an additional 2,400 injured) when a vehicle backs over them in a parking lot or a driveway.... all of them driven by humans. Where are the sensationalist headlines for all those tragedies?

Driverless cars have had their problems but they are still orders of magnitude safer in preventing most types of accidents that have to do with human driver error, for example, simply rear-ending another vehicle because the driver wasn't paying attention. These types of accidents will practically never happen with autonomous cars.
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Old 9th August 2022, 07:48 PM   #9
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Getting your self driving car to perform no worse than a human isn't exactly that lofty of a goal.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:07 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
Getting your self driving car to perform no worse than a human isn't exactly that lofty of a goal.
Self-drive cars are not going to be perfect in the real world because nothing is, the question is rather are they safe enough?

I'd say you'd have to analyse the data very carefully, I wouldn't be surprised if self driving cars are better than humans overall because they aren't going to have the lack of attention that is behind many traffic accidents, plus they can react quicker.

As long as they significantly don't kill and injure as many people as human drivers I'd say that was more than enough. It will be a matter of whether society is happy with that or not.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Mmmm, and the driver might well have got cited/points on his licence/prosecuted ...

What's the penalty situation for Tesla?
Why Tesla - surely it would be the driver's responsibility, as it is now? You won't get away with saying you skidded into another car and avoid responsibility because the automatic traction control built into the car didn't stop the skid.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:19 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
A long time ago I was in a taxi (as a passenger) and the taxi was waiting to make a left turn across a two-lane road. Somehow the driver failed to see a motorcycle that was coming the other way and had the right-of way and crashed into it. So it's also a problem for human drivers. Motorcycles are easier to miss than cars or larger vehicles.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statis...factsheet-2020

"...
  • the most common contributory factor allocated to motorcyclists in fatal or serious accidents (FSA) with another vehicle was ‘driver or rider failed to look properly’
  • ‘driver or rider failed to look properly’ was also the most common factor allocated to the other vehicles involved

..."

In the UK we still have campaigns funded by central government to try and make car drivers more aware that they need to double check for motorcycles.
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Old 10th August 2022, 02:34 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Because "who can we blame for this?" should take precedence over "how can we make our roads safer?"

Seriously, this kind of sensationalist reporting is just low-grade claptrap. The reality is that almost 400 children aged 15 and under are killed yearly when struck by a vehicle., and a further, 100 kids under age 4 are killed each year (with an additional 2,400 injured) when a vehicle backs over them in a parking lot or a driveway.... all of them driven by humans. Where are the sensationalist headlines for all those tragedies?
Does the "repeatedly hit a child-sized mannequin in its path" bother you? People make mistakes, but if an autonomous vehicle has a systemic fault then I'd say the reporting is not "sensationalist".
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Old 10th August 2022, 02:41 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Does the "repeatedly hit a child-sized mannequin in its path" bother you? People make mistakes, but if an autonomous vehicle has a systemic fault then I'd say the reporting is not "sensationalist".
I do think that sounds rather worrying if it is a fair an accurate summary of the test it failed. The article mentions this is a company that creates autonomous systems for car manufacturers i.e. Tesla's rivals and that does raise the red flag a little.
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:16 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I do think that sounds rather worrying if it is a fair an accurate summary of the test it failed. The article mentions this is a company that creates autonomous systems for car manufacturers i.e. Tesla's rivals and that does raise the red flag a little.
It does, yes. Presumably both sides have test results they can publish?
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:16 AM   #16
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I think this is more of a Tesla problem than an autonomous vehicle problem.

For example, Waymo seems to be much farther along.
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Old 10th August 2022, 03:43 AM   #17
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I am deeply suspicious of this O'Dowd character. He is a direct competitor to Tesla so he has a vested interest in the results and therefor cannot be considered a neutral arbiter. Until I see this test repeated by an independent authority such as the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration of the US Department of Transportation, I will regard these tests as potentially biased and suspect.

But regardless of all that, there is still the fact that the vast, and I mean vast (93%) majority of all car accidents are caused by driver error, and of the remaining 7%, most are either poor roads, AoGs and undermined. Only a Ĺ% can be attributed to mechanical or technological failures.
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Old 10th August 2022, 04:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why Tesla - surely it would be the driver's responsibility, as it is now? You won't get away with saying you skidded into another car and avoid responsibility because the automatic traction control built into the car didn't stop the skid.
If I make a mistake, presumably I should be punished for it. If the car makes a mistake presumably I should still be punished for it? For what should I be punished? If I am relying on a true self driving car then I am not responsible for the decisions it makes.

I'm sure Tesla makes it "crystal clear" in the small print that the car isn't really a "self driving car" and that the driver must be at all times prepared to take over from the car if it is about to make a mistake, but if I have to be that aware of the road conditions the whole "self driving car" description is total horse apples.

All this "but they're normally so much better than humans" is irrelevant. It's the abnormal situations that matter.
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Old 10th August 2022, 06:37 AM   #19
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Maybe all this is telling us is that a Tesla can tell the difference between a child and a mannequin , and it doesn't give **** about mannequins.
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Old 10th August 2022, 07:33 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by sphenisc View Post
Maybe all this is telling us is that a Tesla can tell the difference between a child and a mannequin , and it doesn't give **** about mannequins.
Test one with a few children and see if it misses. If it does I'll agree with you...
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Old 10th August 2022, 07:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
If I make a mistake, presumably I should be punished for it. If the car makes a mistake presumably I should still be punished for it? For what should I be punished? If I am relying on a true self driving car then I am not responsible for the decisions it makes.

...snip...
Would you say if the traction control didn't prevent a skid, the car manufacturer is responsible for the traction control mistake?
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Old 10th August 2022, 07:55 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Mmmm, and the driver might well have got cited/points on his licence/prosecuted ...

What's the penalty situation for Tesla?
What's the penalty situation for Subaru? I just got a new Impreza with EyeSight Driver Assist. Supposedly it can stop the car for me if it sees I'm approaching a stopped car in front of me too fast. It can also keep me in my lane, and adjust cruise control to the speed of surrounding traffic.

But what if it fails? What if I rear-end someone anyway? This isn't a special "Tesla is evil" problem. This is a general conundrum public policy addressing all driver assist technology in its current stage of development.

Haters gonna come up with a bunch of stupid-ass rules designed to stick it to Elon Musk, instead of making a dispassionate attempt to actually address the overall issue in a good way.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
I'm sure Tesla makes it "crystal clear" in the small print
I hope the large print agrees with the small print. I don't think you can say two different things and get away with it, if a reasonable person would be misled.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I am deeply suspicious of this O'Dowd character. He is a direct competitor to Tesla so he has a vested interest in the results and therefor cannot be considered a neutral arbiter.
Never heard of him before. He is in the self-driving car business?
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:53 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Would you say if the traction control didn't prevent a skid, the car manufacturer is responsible for the traction control mistake?
Nope, because the traction control is a driver aid intended to help a driver to the best of its abilities if the driver makes a mistake; self driving is a driver replacement that decides what speed to drive and thus makes the mistake if the car skids.
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:54 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Never heard of him before. He is in the self-driving car business?
O'Dowd is a software expert who develops software for spacecraft, aircraft and vehicle applications including driverless cars and driver assist... and among his customers are car manufacturers other than Tesla. This means he has a conflict of interest that rules out his neutrality.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Nope, because the traction control is a driver aid intended to help a driver to the best of its abilities if the driver makes a mistake; self driving is a driver replacement that decides what speed to drive and thus makes the mistake if the car skids.
Not seeing a different in class.
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Old 10th August 2022, 01:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not seeing a different in class.
Well I do and that's my answer to your question.
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Old 10th August 2022, 08:49 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Not seeing a different in class.
Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Well I do and that's my answer to your question.
So do I - the difference in class is pretty obvious

Anti-skid brakes and traction control still leave the driving decisions in the hands of the driver - if you are so reckless that you are driving beyond the limits of ABS/TC to save you, that is on you! The converse is also true, if you crash, and you are unable to show that there was a failure in the ABS/TC system, that is also on you.

However, if you crash while the car is in autodrive, the driving decisions are made by the computer
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Old 10th August 2022, 11:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So do I - the difference in class is pretty obvious

Anti-skid brakes and traction control still leave the driving decisions in the hands of the driver - if you are so reckless that you are driving beyond the limits of ABS/TC to save you, that is on you! The converse is also true, if you crash, and you are unable to show that there was a failure in the ABS/TC system, that is also on you.

However, if you crash while the car is in autodrive, the driving decisions are made by the computer
I still donít see it - they are both automated systems that help with driving, one obviously more so, if such systems make a mistake it is the same type of mistake.
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Old 11th August 2022, 12:41 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I still donít see it - they are both automated systems that help with driving, one obviously more so, if such systems make a mistake it is the same type of mistake.
Nope.

ABS/TC "helps with driving"

Autodrive "does the driving"
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:45 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I still don’t see it - they are both automated systems that help with driving, one obviously more so, if such systems make a mistake it is the same type of mistake.
In basic terms, traction control/electronic stability/whatever the maker calls it may be able to help if the human driver makes a mistake. It behoves the driver not to rely on the system as a matter of course.

Self driving, and I mean real self driving to levels 4 or 5 not this hyped up mess tesla is pushing as self driving, is the driver itself. It decides on everything everywhere and the human has no input during actual driving, even to the extent of monitoring the system.

There is a principle "do not take responsibilty for that over which you have no control"

The human driver of a car with stability control/antilock brakes/traction control/etc has primary control over the steering and speed of their vehicle and hence has responsibility for an accident caused by the speed and direction of the vehicle.

A human sitting in a car who is not required to have control of, or monitor performance of, the speed or direction the car moves under the self driving system cannot be responsible for an accident caused by the speed or direction of the vehicle.

Now, considering Tesla's system which pretends to be capable of full self driving but is nothing more than a complex set of aids to driving. The driver is still required to sit at the wheel monitoring the vehicle and be prepared to take over control at any moment if the driver considers the driving system is wrong or the system itself considers it cannot cope. This adds a further step in the decison process for the human -


I am driving

I see a small child about to run into the road

Brake!!!


The tesla is driving for me

I see a small child about to run into the road (Assuming I really am paying full attention to the road as required)

Is the computer going to spot it?

No it hasn't !

Brake!!!

Note the extra time period between see child and brake, which may be the difference between llife and death for the child. Quite apart from the fact that I might have started to slow on seeing the child so having less speed to lose...

And yet you think I should still
be responsible for the accident...

hmmm.

Perhaps with the tesla you could be correct, after all I could have switched off tesla's system and been driving manually and seen the child in time, but tesla advertises "full self driving" and that is how too many lazy drivers take it to be. So all is not as clear cut as it may seem.

Looking back to post 11 I see you mentioned tesla and I replied with the words self driving, but I personally don't consider the tesla system to be self driving in itself, being at no more than level 2.5 automation level.

So, taking tesla's system in isolation, I do tend to agree that anyone using it should still be liable for mistakes the system makes because relying on a level 2 system is foolish. If the system was tested and proven at level 4 (use within specific conditions of road type, weather, maintenance level, etc) or level 5 (everywhere) then any mistakes it made under the correct conditions of use should be the responsibilty of tesla.

The whole idea of letting driver aids take over the driving is nonsense, though others on here may see it differently.
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Old 11th August 2022, 01:47 AM   #33
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I think autonomous self-driving vehicles are more suited for taxi-like services than to be owned. Sure, you could own one, but it’s probably not cost-efficient.

This also solves the question of who is responsible when there is an accident. It won’t be the passenger. It will be the taxi owner.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:15 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I think autonomous self-driving vehicles are more suited for taxi-like services than to be owned. Sure, you could own one, but it’s probably not cost-efficient.

This also solves the question of who is responsible when there is an accident. It won’t be the passenger. It will be the taxi owner.
If it is "autonomous" why would it be the taxi owner who was responsible? The accident wouldn't be their fault any more than it would be the passenger's fault.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
If it is "autonomous" why would it be the taxi owner who was responsible? The accident wouldn't be their fault any more than it would be the passenger's fault.
Ultimately it will be an insurance company that pays. It may not be the taxi companyís fault, but someone needs to pay for the consequences. If itís a problem with the software, then they can sue the manufacturer if needed. Iím sure that contracts will also come into play. The market will figure out what the risk is for different makers of cars too. One that is safer will be cheaper to insure.
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Old 11th August 2022, 02:40 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Ultimately it will be an insurance company that pays. It may not be the taxi companyís fault, but someone needs to pay for the consequences. If itís a problem with the software, then they can sue the manufacturer if needed. Iím sure that contracts will also come into play. The market will figure out what the risk is for different makers of cars too. One that is safer will be cheaper to insure.
Maybe, we will see. The self drive manufacturers have far more power to lobby for regulations that favour them than the taxi industry. Maybe that will change?
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:12 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Does the "repeatedly hit a child-sized mannequin in its path" bother you? People make mistakes, but if an autonomous vehicle has a systemic fault then I'd say the reporting is not "sensationalist".
I have a Tesla, now admittedly, I don't have FSD (full self drive package), but once I was turning a corner and someone stepped in front of the car. My Tesla emitted a slew of alarms and immediately slammed on the brakes.

As well, The 'test' may not have been on the 'up and up'.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/

And this person performed their own test, which shows the car actively stopping, slowing, or driving around a cardboard child.

https://twitter.com/tesladriver2022/...6SgsmIhzo_fn1Q
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I have a Tesla, now admittedly, I don't have FSD (full self drive package), but once I was turning a corner and someone stepped in front of the car. My Tesla emitted a slew of alarms and immediately slammed on the brakes.

As well, The 'test' may not have been on the 'up and up'.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/

And this person performed their own test, which shows the car actively stopping, slowing, or driving around a cardboard child.

https://twitter.com/tesladriver2022/...6SgsmIhzo_fn1Q
I don't think there is any question that the vast majority of the time Tesla's can see children, dogs and most other obstacles. When they fail though, it seems to be in conditions where a human can plainly see the object they drove into. There was a Tesla a few years ago that followed a faded road marking into a bunch of concrete. I agree with you though that the test may not be legit.
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Old 11th August 2022, 08:40 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Shalamar View Post
I have a Tesla, now admittedly, I don't have FSD (full self drive package), but once I was turning a corner and someone stepped in front of the car. My Tesla emitted a slew of alarms and immediately slammed on the brakes.

As well, The 'test' may not have been on the 'up and up'.
https://electrek.co/2022/08/10/tesla...never-engaged/

And this person performed their own test, which shows the car actively stopping, slowing, or driving around a cardboard child.

https://twitter.com/tesladriver2022/...6SgsmIhzo_fn1Q
That's what driver aids should be for, you weren't relying on the car to drive you, but the systems helped you avoid the accident.
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Old 11th August 2022, 09:26 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
That's what driver aids should be for, you weren't relying on the car to drive you, but the systems helped you avoid the accident.
Did you click the first link I posted? Because it seems that the Ďtestsí did not use self drive either.

While the second link has multiple videos showing Tesla FSD avoiding actual miniature humans.
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