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Old 28th July 2022, 05:02 AM   #1
d4m10n
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Respect for Marriage Act

Apparently there is some "possibility that there could be a narrow bipartisan path for the legislation to move ahead in the Senate and make its way to President Biden’s desk to be signed into law."

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/20/u...ll-senate.html

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR...OWZjMDBl?ep=14

Worth keeping tabs on, since we rarely see bipartisan legislation go through, much less civil rights legislation.
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:15 AM   #2
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I have a slim, naïve hope that at least SOME Republicans are getting the impression they bit off more than the can chew / unleashed a sleeping giant / pick your metaphor by such a brazen, direct attack on Roe V. Wade* and are looking hard for ways to extend an olive branch to the "Left" in a way that absolutely doesn't look like that's what they are doing.

A slim, naive hope I said, nobody has to @ me.

* I long figured that even once in power Republicans would never fully gut Roe V. Wade since its such a useful political tool for them to have around and would focus more on that kind of childish "Oh we're totally not saying women can't get an abortion we're just saying abortions clinics are only open for 7 seconds on the 3rd Sunday of each month...." kind of stupid sheninigans they used to pull / try to pull.
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:17 AM   #3
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Well I think most of society has evolved sufficiently enough to see this get through. But I am still not confident.
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Well I think most of society has evolved sufficiently enough to see this get through. But I am still not confident.
I haven't look at or crunched the numbers but I wouldn't be like super-shocked if abortion is "more popular" (as nebulous and inexact as that concept is in a political sense) than gay marriage.
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:41 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Apparently there is some "possibility that there could be a narrow bipartisan path for the legislation to move ahead in the Senate and make its way to President Biden’s desk to be signed into law."
They're lining up the football again already? Go for it, Chuck! You're sure to kick it this time!
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I haven't look at or crunched the numbers but I wouldn't be like super-shocked if abortion is "more popular" (as nebulous and inexact as that concept is in a political sense) than gay marriage.
Perhaps, but I still see the “killing babies” rhetoric as more polarising than “let’s let gays who love each other marry” rhetoric.
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Old 28th July 2022, 05:57 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
They're lining up the football again already? Go for it, Chuck! You're sure to kick it this time!
There is a good chance that the bill will falter, as it has on four previous occasions.

That said public opinion on the issue has shifted significantly, so who knows?
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:00 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
There is a good chance that the bill will falter, as it has on four previous occasions.

That said public opinion on the issue has shifted significantly, so who knows?
Not surprising at all. It would take a massive misinformation campaign to reverse this consensus. The world has changed a lot in the last 20 years when it comes to gay marriage.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:03 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Not surprising at all. It would take a massive misinformation campaign to reverse this consensus. The world has changed a lot in the last 20 years when it comes to gay marriage.
Worlds changed a lot more in the 50 years since Roe V. Wade.

Since when do the Republicans need popular consensus or when have they NOT used massive misinformation?

"This has no chance of failing dot dot dot unless Republicans act exactly like they always do" isn't very uplifting.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:19 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Worlds changed a lot more in the 50 years since Roe V. Wade.

Since when do the Republicans need popular consensus or when have they NOT used massive misinformation?

"This has no chance of failing dot dot dot unless Republicans act exactly like they always do" isn't very uplifting.
Okay. I’m in Australia. There are fundy Christians here, but I’m not seeing them setting the agenda in any significant way. Looking at the opinion polls posted earlier it looks like the support for gay marriage is very widespread (except for a couple of states). Is the instinct to follow the Republican line sufficient to counter this trend? If so the US is royally ******.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:21 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
If so the US is royally ******.
Yes.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:22 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay. I’m in Australia. There are fundy Christians here, but I’m not seeing them setting the agenda in any significant way. Looking at the opinion polls posted earlier it looks like the support for gay marriage is very widespread (except for a couple of states). Is the instinct to follow the Republican line sufficient to counter this trend? If so the US is royally ******.
Because Australia has NOTHING that even vaguely compares to the American Religious Right.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:24 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Apparently there is some "possibility that there could be a narrow bipartisan path for the legislation to move ahead in the Senate and make its way to President Biden’s desk to be signed into law."
I'm not seeing anywhere in the constitution where congress can make laws on marriage. Is this one of those things that has been interpreted into the constitution?
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:27 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm not seeing anywhere in the constitution where congress can make laws on marriage. Is this one of those things that has been interpreted into the constitution?
Perfect. So when Republicans outlaw gay marriage we can just ignore it since marriage isn't in the Constitution.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:33 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because Australia has NOTHING that even vaguely compares to the American Religious Right.
Ken Hamm, or was it Kent Hovind? Can't remember which, but the idiot that onws the Arc Experience "museum" in Kentucky is from Australia.

I don't know if that means the Ozzies threw him out or if he's a scout for the Australian fundamentalist loons...
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:33 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm not seeing anywhere in the constitution where congress can make laws on marriage. Is this one of those things that has been interpreted into the constitution?
Is this a joke? Do you see anywhere where they can make laws on drugs? On speed limits on roads? On seat belts or air bags or mercury or sealions?
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:35 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ken Hamm, or was it Kent Hovind? Can't remember which, but the idiot that onws the Arc Experience "museum" in Kentucky is from Australia.

I don't know if that means the Ozzies threw him out or if he's a scout for the Australian fundamentalist loons...
Yeah, but notice that the idiot from Australia is now in Kentucky, and not the other way round. That's what makes the difference.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Is this a joke?
No it's bait.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:42 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ken Hamm, or was it Kent Hovind? Can't remember which, but the idiot that onws the Arc Experience "museum" in Kentucky is from Australia.

I don't know if that means the Ozzies threw him out or if he's a scout for the Australian fundamentalist loons...
Look, we have a heap of fundamental Christians in positions of power. Our last Prime Minister was one. But as a society we are not wildly religious. Our recent census showed the majority had no religion.

There’s no hope gay marriage will be outlawed in Australia. With the public opinion in the US strongly supporting gay marriage, what is the solution? My guess to get stronger grass root support for Democratic candidates. Yes, easier said than done, but what is the laternative?
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:49 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah, but notice that the idiot from Australia is now in Kentucky, and not the other way round. That's what makes the difference.
Right, but I don't know if he's an advance scout for the Ozzy fundie wackadoodle army, in preparation for an all out YEC dance off fight with the ones we already have here, or if the Ozzies chucked him out for being too wackadoodle for them.
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Old 28th July 2022, 06:56 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I'm not seeing anywhere in the constitution where congress can make laws on marriage. Is this one of those things that has been interpreted into the constitution?
The bill was drafted so as to invoke the Full Faith and Credit ClauseWP.

ETA: Some scholarly explanation has been provided by Ilya Somin:
Quote:
While states may not be required to recognize out of state marriages by virtue of the FFC Clause taken alone, there is a much stronger case that Congress can use its powers under the Clause to require them to do so.
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Old 28th July 2022, 07:47 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Is this a joke? Do you see anywhere where they can make laws on drugs? On speed limits on roads? On seat belts or air bags or mercury or sealions?
No, no, no no, no and no.

As far as speed limits go, I understand that the congress couldn't set speed limits but (thanks to the power of the purse) they could withhold funds to states that didn't impose a 55 mph speed limit.
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Old 28th July 2022, 07:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The bill was drafted so as to invoke the Full Faith and Credit ClauseWP.
That might mean that states must recognize same sex marriages in other states but that sounds a long way from congress making laws that make it legal for same sex marriages in all states.
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:11 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Ken Hamm, or was it Kent Hovind? Can't remember which, but the idiot that onws the Arc Experience "museum" in Kentucky is from Australia.

I don't know if that means the Ozzies threw him out or if he's a scout for the Australian fundamentalist loons...
I suspect the difference is that Australia never had a major political party court Christian fundamentalists quite the way the Republican Party has for the last 40+ years.
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:49 AM   #25
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The problem is, even if it passes, there is a very good chance that the supreme court will STILL find a way to rule against it. (Probably under the banner of "states rights"... i.e. "marriage was at one time sanctioned by the states so we must revert back to those days")
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Old 28th July 2022, 08:56 AM   #26
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Yeah. That's where all this ends. The SCOTUS cannot be wrong on a legal/government/Constitutional level about what the Constitution says. There's no check and balance in place for "A Majority of Members of SCOTUS are part of a Death Cult."

If Trump's hand picked toadies say the Constitution says Wednesday has always come AFTER Thursday that's the reality as the far as the government is concerned.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:03 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah. That's where all this ends. The SCOTUS cannot be wrong on a legal/government/Constitutional level about what the Constitution says. There's no check and balance in place for "A Majority of Members of SCOTUS are part of a Death Cult."
Well there is, court packing or impeachment would be solutions to SCOTUS.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:14 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That might mean that states must recognize same sex marriages in other states but that sounds a long way from congress making laws that make it legal for same sex marriages in all states.
That is correct, according to Ilya Somin.

Quote:
It's worth emphasizing that Section 4 avoids federalism problems in large part because it does not actually compel states to recognize same-sex marriages, or indeed any other kind of marriages. It just says that if a state does recognize them, the federal government will, as well. In that respect, it falls short of offering the degree of protection for same-sex marriage that currently exists under Obergefell.
So it's not a perfect fix, but at least it offers some protection. Haven't found any commentary on what would happen if a state attempted to nullify earlier marriages post-hoc, but I expect that would be found unconstitutional on other grounds.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:15 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Quote:
Yeah. That's where all this ends. The SCOTUS cannot be wrong on a legal/government/Constitutional level about what the Constitution says. There's no check and balance in place for "A Majority of Members of SCOTUS are part of a Death Cult."
Well there is, court packing or impeachment would be solutions to SCOTUS.
Except of course the little issue that the supreme court is approving all sorts of dirty tricks (voter suppression, gerrymandering) that help keep the republicans in power, preventing the democrats from having the ability to pack the court.
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Old 28th July 2022, 09:26 AM   #30
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Because the Democrats continue to refuse to understand that THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL BATTLE.

It's a battle of wills and they ALWAYS blink first.

Republicans openly go "We aren't going to follow the rules because we're the bad guys, you have to follow the rules because you are the good guys" and Democrats keep going "Yep, that makes sense, that's how it works."

That's why every plan the Democrats have is to keep using the system the Republicans have already taken control AND made clear they won't follow anymore than they have to.

"But the rules say if this happens you have to do this!"
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Old 28th July 2022, 10:36 AM   #31
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It's not even that the Democrats won't break the rules. They are abiding by a bunch of traditions and policies that aren't actual rules. They are basically just courtesies they extend the GOP that the GOP never returns. There are things the Democrats can do that are legal and within the rules, but they are afraid that it might be seen as a dirty trick.

Or the stupidest excuse, "the Republicans might do it when they get power."
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Old 28th July 2022, 10:50 AM   #32
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What can be done legislatively can be undone legislatively. Still, I'd call this a step in the right direction.
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Old 28th July 2022, 10:53 AM   #33
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Because they're hoping it will just go away. That the GOP will have won enough that they'll get tired of cheating, and things can settle back down to normal. The old boring neoliberal grift. The way it used to be. The way the GOP keeps telling them they want too, every time the Democrats are in power.

They've just gotta keep kicking that football, Lucy's promised them this time for sure.
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Old 28th July 2022, 10:57 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because the Democrats continue to refuse to understand that THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL BATTLE.
Count me among the Democrats this time around, since getting a bill passed through the Senate is almost the definition of a political battle.
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:14 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
It's not even that the Democrats won't break the rules. They are abiding by a bunch of traditions and policies that aren't actual rules.
Yeah but that's sorta (not exactly, there's nuance in there) the difference between governing and politics.

The traditions and unspoken agreements and and back alley deals and quid-pro-quo and all that isn't dirty politics, it IS politics.

And, Elephant in the room, does anyone really, truly think that the Democrats really are this scared to "get dirty" or is it just a way for them to manufacture a moral victory out of a loss after the fact like... most of the time.
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:44 AM   #36
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Because they're hoping it will just go away. That the GOP will have won enough that they'll get tired of cheating, and things can settle back down to normal. The old boring neoliberal grift. The way it used to be. The way the GOP keeps telling them they want too, every time the Democrats are in power.

They've just gotta keep kicking that football, Lucy's promised them this time for sure.
I wonder at times who you hate more, the Dems or the GOP.
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:46 AM   #37
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I am no libertarian, but I think they have the right idea when it comes to marraige:Get Government out of the Marraige business altoghther. Instead have "Civil Unions" which are contracts between the parties outlining their legal obligations to each other and any offspring, without any religious angle, and leave Marraige to private instiutions
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Old 28th July 2022, 11:59 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am no libertarian, but I think they have the right idea when it comes to marraige:Get Government out of the Marraige business altoghther. Instead have "Civil Unions" which are contracts between the parties outlining their legal obligations to each other and any offspring, without any religious angle, and leave Marraige to private instiutions
Are we getting rid of marriage Visas or allowing that status to be worked into any contract?

Marriage does all kinds of things one can not legally do in a contract.
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Old 28th July 2022, 12:05 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I am no libertarian, but I think they have the right idea when it comes to marraige:Get Government out of the Marraige business altoghther. Instead have "Civil Unions" which are contracts between the parties outlining their legal obligations to each other and any offspring, without any religious angle, and leave Marraige to private instiutions
Marriage (I just went to one this past weekend) "I do", "I do", officiant files a certificate, aaaaaannd done! Poof, married! (That is literally all that is required for the state of GA at least)

Contracts outlining legal obligations...yeah, something like a mortgage where you sit in an office going over line after line, sign here, initial here, can we make an addendum there? How ******* romantic!
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Old 28th July 2022, 12:11 PM   #40
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Marriage is a pretty archaic concept that I think government should drop entirely outside of the purely legal aspects of it, as in as far as the government is concerned "marriage" should be no more than basically a slightly more robust power of attorney. It should cover shared property, coinhabiting, all that but not say or mean squat as to "love."

But as long as it is a thing, gay marriage should be equal to straight marriage, across the board with no if, ands, buts, or "Okay but what if we call it civil blah blah blah instead..."
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