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Old 13th February 2019, 09:39 AM   #81
Dave Rogers
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
If you paid for it you can't be compelled to use it
If you entered into a contract in which you agreed to use it, then yes you can.

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Old 13th February 2019, 09:42 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I'm reminded of what happened to American Mall Retailer J.C. Penneys.

Like most retailers of its type Penneys is struggling pretty hard right now and most likely won't last much longer. Few years back they tried a radical approach, a fair pricing initiative where they got rid of frequent "sale" items, priced everything in whole numbers, and actually objectively lowered the prices on their products on average. People hated it. They missed the feeling of finding an item "on sale."

Or the luck the car maker Saturn had with it's "no haggle" dealership. Saturns not around anymore for the record.

People like the shell game right up until the point they realize it's a shell game. Everyone says they want fair clear pricing, but they never seem to like it when they get it. What they want is to feel like they personally are getting a better deal then everyone else. It's why this guy didn't write a book called "How to Get Cheaper Airfare by Manipulating Connecting Stops" but just used the method himself.

What almost everyone wants is a shell game where they feel like they are winning. So retailers often have to create a shell game where most customers feel like they are winning, even though they can't all be because that's not how shell games work, so the shell game has to be complicated and transparent to work.

That's why all this crap exists. It's because that's what costumers actually want.

No, the reason all of this exists is to maximise profit in a competitive environment. What the customer wants is just a question on the way to 'how can we extract their money'.

As I say, any unintended consequenses of Lufthansa trying to maximise profit are Lufthansa's problem. Let's not pretend they're providing a service because they want the world to feel good. All of this, all that they have done is so that they can make money. Lower airfares on the way is just a byproduct of that.

Given that the entire mess of airline structures and booking practices has been initiated solely so that airlines can make money, I doin't see any reasonable angle that puts the passenger on the hook for the (probably non existent) additional costs that might occur.


Quote:
The more complicated a pricing system is, the more each individual customer can feel like they "cheated the system."

It's the age old "I won't buy a 20 dollar shirt but I will buy a 30 dollar shirt that's on sale for 20 dollars" thing that providers of goods and services has used since the beginning of time.
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Old 13th February 2019, 09:46 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
No, the reason all of this exists is to maximise profit in a competitive environment.
Yes. Companies want to make money. That's not shattering anyone's world view there.

Quote:
What the customer wants is just a question on the way to 'how can we extract their money'.
And the customers are not neutral parties in this. The companies aren't stupid, they are only going to use pricing methods that the customers actually react to, not the ones they claim they want.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:01 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yes. Companies want to make money. That's not shattering anyone's world view there.



And the customers are not neutral parties in this. The companies aren't stupid, they are only going to use pricing methods that the customers actually react to, not the ones they claim they want.
Agreed.

It still doesn't change the fact that this is all of the airline's making and they should have no agency to compel any passenger to remain on a plane they want to get off.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:05 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It still doesn't change the fact that this is all of the airline's making and they should have no agency to compel any passenger to remain on a plane they want to get off.
Again only if you equate "Being held to terms of services" with "making you stay on the plane" which is, a bit a much.

No airline... well maybe United... is going to physically handcuff someone to the seat and fly them kicking and screaming to their final destination to meet some passenger quota.

Basically the argument is if your physical butt gets flown from Point A to Point B and a Point A to Point B ticket costs X dollars, you should pay X dollars.

The shell game of pricing that leads to the counter-intuitive scenario where Point A to B to C costs less is something to put on the table for discussion, but it doesn't completely invalidate the previous fact. You aren't paying for a hypothetical flight you might have gone on.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:09 AM   #86
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I'm curious how frequently this is happening for airlines to make a big stink like they do. I mean, it's only certain flights that benefit from this kind of gamesmanship, and only for passengers who are flying without checked luggage.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:12 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Again only if you equate "Being held to terms of services" with "making you stay on the plane" which is, a bit a much.
In my opinion those are unreasonable terms of service and therefore unenforceable.

The court may see it the same way.

I return to "I want to get off this plane", is not a negotiation and certainly not subject to terms.


Quote:
No airline... well maybe United... is going to physically handcuff someone to the seat and fly them kicking and screaming to their final destination to meet some passenger quota.

Basically the argument is if your physical butt gets flown from Point A to Point B and a Point A to Point B ticket costs X dollars, you should pay X dollars.

The shell game of pricing that leads to the counter-intuitive scenario where Point A to B to C costs less is something to put on the table for discussion, but it doesn't completely invalidate the previous fact. You aren't paying for a hypothetical flight you might have gone on.

It still doesn't matter one tiny jot, as I've stated.

I think we've arrived at an impasse. I entirely understand your position and the reasons for it. I doin't think it's unreasonable, but I do think it places an unreasonable and unenforceable burden on the passenger. As such I think it's the wrong position.

I hope I've been clear enough that you understand my position. I don't think we're going to come to an agreement because there's not a lot more to present.
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Old 13th February 2019, 10:14 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm curious how frequently this is happening for airlines to make a big stink like they do. I mean, it's only certain flights that benefit from this kind of gamesmanship, and only for passengers who are flying without checked luggage.
Probably not. I still think from the airlines perspective keeping this trick quiet and just eating the cost of the passengers who try it would probably make them more in the long run.

There might be more to this one incident, like I said earlier I'm curious if he traveling on his own dime or a company he worked for which might muddy the waters a bit, but in general I don't think this is a hill the companies should bother to die defending.
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Old 13th February 2019, 11:16 AM   #89
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I’m intrigued about this guy’s luggage. Normally with multi-port flights like this booked in luggage is transferred to the next flight (unless there is a long break between flights). If he asked for his luggage to be taken off at the second last port, that would incur extra costs to the airline.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:04 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’m intrigued about this guy’s luggage. Normally with multi-port flights like this booked in luggage is transferred to the next flight (unless there is a long break between flights). If he asked for his luggage to be taken off at the second last port, that would incur extra costs to the airline.
A fair point if checked luggage was involved. I've flown all over the world without checked luggage, though, and it's possible that if he knew he'd be getting off, he might have planned for it.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:12 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If you entered into a contract in which you agreed to use it, then yes you can.

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No, I can't, as evidenced by this lawsuit
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:13 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
If you entered into a contract in which you agreed to use it, then yes you can.
If that contract cannot be legally enforced, no you can't.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:35 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
No, I can't, as evidenced by this lawsuit
Originally Posted by baron View Post
If that contract cannot be legally enforced, no you can't.
The clause is enforceable in principle, just not under certain specific circumstances.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:39 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I’m intrigued about this guy’s luggage. Normally with multi-port flights like this booked in luggage is transferred to the next flight (unless there is a long break between flights). If he asked for his luggage to be taken off at the second last port, that would incur extra costs to the airline.
People don't check luggage when they when they do the hidden-city method. I can't imagine any airline cooperating with someone doing this, so your bags won't be getting off early.

Generally, the goal when doing "hidden city" fare tricks is not to alert the airline you're doing it. You just get off with your carry-on bags and keep your mouth shut.
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:41 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by GnaGnaMan View Post
The clause is enforceable in principle, just not under certain specific circumstances.
What do you mean?
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:43 PM   #96
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don't offer those connected flights if they are abused. ahm, I guess this is too simple...
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Old 13th February 2019, 12:56 PM   #97
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Who is the damaged party in this case?
I can't find one.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Who is the damaged party in this case?
I can't find one.
So far, me. I read the whole damn thread.

Also, despite lots of claims about passenger fees for different airports I haven't seen anything that show the airline paid more fees because this man departed at the connecting airport. If that were true I would have expected that to be a major point in their litigation. Even if it were only a $20 difference it is easier to recoup a multiple of that than some nebulous market value of the trip not taken.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:07 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Who is the damaged party in this case?
I can't find one.
If the lawsuit succeeds the loser will be the passenger.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:15 PM   #100
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This is a civil case, and doesn't a civil plaintiff have to be able to show that they were aggrieved in some way?
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:26 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
This is a civil case, and doesn't a civil plaintiff have to be able to show that they were aggrieved in some way?
The plaintiff Lufthansa argues that the defendant, their passenger, owes them money because of their contractual relationship. The defendant refused to pay on the grounds that the relevant clause in the contract is void on account of provisions in general law.
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Old 13th February 2019, 01:54 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People don't check luggage when they when they do the hidden-city method. I can't imagine any airline cooperating with someone doing this, so your bags won't be getting off early.
Prior to this being popular, it was actually possible to "short-check" your luggage. I don't know of any airlines that still offer it.

The other problem with anyone attempting this is that the airline doesn't guarantee to you that they'll fly you to city B at all. If there's a problem and they rebook you (or potentially lots of other reasons), they might (attempt to) fly you to city C via some other itinerary.

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Old 13th February 2019, 02:34 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Lufthansa seem to be contending that changing one's mind is not allowed.

Suddenly discover an ill relative in Munich and, by happy chance, your stopover is in Munich?

Lufthansa seem to be contending that you're not allowed to disembark at that point. Well, unless you pay them.

It doesn't take a great deal of creativity to make this sound like kidnap and ransom
Except that he didn't get off and see a sick relative in Frankfurt; he walked through the Frankfurt airport and got on a Lufthansa flight to Berlin.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People don't check luggage when they when they do the hidden-city method. I can't imagine any airline cooperating with someone doing this, so your bags won't be getting off early.

Generally, the goal when doing "hidden city" fare tricks is not to alert the airline you're doing it. You just get off with your carry-on bags and keep your mouth shut.
And don't take a flight on the same damn airline from the airport where you are escaping.

This guy did it wrong, and now Lufthansa has an easy test case that will make others think twice about playing this game.
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Old 13th February 2019, 02:58 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
This guy did it wrong, and now Lufthansa has an easy test case that will make others think twice about playing this game.
Not when they lose, and all it does is bring attention to the loophole and everyone will start to do it.
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:06 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Except that he didn't get off and see a sick relative in Frankfurt; he walked through the Frankfurt airport and got on a Lufthansa flight to Berlin.


And don't take a flight on the same damn airline from the airport where you are escaping.

This guy did it wrong, and now Lufthansa has an easy test case that will make others think twice about playing this game.
But only in Germany.

Quote:
A Berlin district court dismissed the lawsuit in December, but Lufthansa's spokesperson confirmed to CNN that the company has "already filed the appeal against the decision."
Maybe (wink).
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Old 13th February 2019, 03:38 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
But only in Germany.

From your mouth to Gott's ears.
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Old 14th February 2019, 02:03 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
No, I can't, as evidenced by this lawsuit
Affirming the consequent. Even if in this instance the contractual terms cannot be enforced, that doesn't mean there are no circumstances in which they can. And, of course, there is still the appeal to be heard, isn't there?

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Old 14th February 2019, 03:09 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
People don't check luggage when they when they do the hidden-city method. I can't imagine any airline cooperating with someone doing this, so your bags won't be getting off early.

Generally, the goal when doing "hidden city" fare tricks is not to alert the airline you're doing it. You just get off with your carry-on bags and keep your mouth shut.
Sure I get people do this. I am amused by the mind set of people who think “okay, I’ll try to save a couple of hundred of dollars by using this method. All I need to do is to travel to multiple cities over many days with only 7kg of luggage, while risking my my status. And just to throw them off I will book my final flight on Lufthansa. I simply can’t lose”.

These cheapskates deserve what they get.

Airfares have never been cheaper in real terms. In a highly competitive environment, airlines struggle to make a profit. The magnificent Etihad is on its knees. My beloved Virgin Australia only makes a profit on domestic flights and takes a bath on international flights and its low cost Tiger.

We have a system where ordinary people can travel internationally for not much. Earlier I was sitting on the fence. Now I hope Lufthansa wins. We have a good air travel system. Let’s keep it, warts and all.
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Old 14th February 2019, 03:30 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
We have a system where ordinary people can travel internationally for not much. Earlier I was sitting on the fence. Now I hope Lufthansa wins. We have a good air travel system. Let’s keep it, warts and all.
I suggest that suing customers who don't avail themselves of the services they have paid for will not improve the service.
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Old 14th February 2019, 03:42 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
The magnificent Etihad is on its knees.


'Magnificent' is not how I would choose to describe them.

Also, if they're on their knees, they're badly run. They should sort that out.

If they can't then they're in the wrong business and the other brother won.


Airlines exist to make money, that any are on their knees, magnificent or otherwise, is a matter of supreme indifference to me.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:04 AM   #111
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I have no sympathy for Lufthansa. It charged my elderly parents >£1,000 each to fly to Newcastle for my son's graduation ceremony at Durham. Shysters.
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Old 14th February 2019, 06:15 AM   #112
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Seems that blacklisting known offenders would be the more reasonable approach to problem customers than silly lawsuits, but what do I know.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:12 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Seems that blacklisting known offenders would be the more reasonable approach to problem customers than silly lawsuits, but what do I know.
That's what I was thinking. Have it in the terms that pulling a stunt like this will result in forfeiture of any points and status and may result in blacklisting on the airline and its partners. That should sort it out fairly quickly and without legal hassle or bringing broader attention to the loophole.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:20 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Have it in the terms that pulling a stunt like this will result in forfeiture of any points and status and may result in blacklisting on the airline and its partners. That should sort it out fairly quickly and without legal hassle or bringing broader attention to the loophole.
*Confused* But that's exactly what this case is. They aren't claiming the guy broke some law, they are claiming he broke the terms and agreements of his ticket.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:25 AM   #115
SuburbanTurkey
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Confused* But that's exactly what this case is. They aren't claiming the guy broke some law, they are claiming he broke the terms and agreements of his ticket.
Suing him for for lost money is the legal hassle. Saying "good job saving $200, you're banned from the airline Mr. Smith" would be a much easier, non litigious way to deal with this.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:44 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Suing him for for lost money is the legal hassle. Saying "good job saving $200, you're banned from the airline Mr. Smith" would be a much easier, non litigious way to deal with this.
He could contest the ban. Going straight to that contest and resolving it once and for all makes sense. Especially if they think it's a contest they can win. If they win this case, then they can ban anyone else who tries it, without having to be too concerned about pushback.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:49 AM   #117
Dr. Keith
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Confused* But that's exactly what this case is. They aren't claiming the guy broke some law, they are claiming he broke the terms and agreements of his ticket.
But part of why they lost at the first court is that their terms and the amount of damages were unclear. If the terms were clear and easily enforceable without the need of a court then I think any subsequent legal challenge would be easily dismissed.
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Old 14th February 2019, 11:53 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He could contest the ban. Going straight to that contest and resolving it once and for all makes sense. Especially if they think it's a contest they can win. If they win this case, then they can ban anyone else who tries it, without having to be too concerned about pushback.
But when he contests the ban the headline does not include the phrase "Lufthansa sues customer".

In my opinion, the lawyers were trying to leave their options open and ended up not being clear in the terms. Reaching for unspecified and difficult to calculate damages abasing a customer is much harder than simply blacklisting that customer or zeroing out their loyalty balance.
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