ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags loose change , part 4 , 911 conspiracy theory

Closed Thread
Old 3rd August 2006, 07:45 AM   #161
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
The fact is that there is a lot of frustration here as well, mainly because anyone who goes over to LC forum and tries to make legitimate points is immediately either banned, or is attacked to the point where they say something that gets them banned. As well, the mods over there PURPOSELY alter links posted by 9/11 debunkers, so visitors over there never get to see our side of the arguments.

As well, I agree that the general public needs to see from what perspective, and from what motives, the creators of such an Influencial movie as LC are coming from. If that means exposing their own character assassination (MarkyX video, for the most part is simply playing audio and video that that group recorded themselves.), then so be it.

Last edited by T.A.M.; 3rd August 2006 at 07:59 AM.
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 07:46 AM   #162
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 17,371
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
I take it that that's a 'yes' to my question "do you really expect the discussion to improve as a result of this character assassination?". Oh dear. I have nothing more to say to this
If "character assassination" brings more people into the discussion that weren't there before, then isn't that an improvement?

It would be one thing if character assassination was all there was. Their arguements have already been dismantled, pretty much sentence by sentence, in addition to all the discourse at SLC and 911myths. That is already there, and in the end, that is the meat of the matter.

What MarkyX is doing is bringing more people to the table to eat. And they come hungry.
__________________
"As your friend, I have to be honest with you: I don't care about you or your problems" - Gidget, Secret Life of Pets
pgwenthold is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 07:51 AM   #163
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
I'm sorry, but I simply don't understand your explanation.
It means that if the 911 deniers get enough flak from videos like this, they will learn to rein in their little cutsey quips that make their fellow deniers laugh, but insult the victims of that day.

Examples:

'People are secondary' - Dylan Avery

This means that there is a massive gap in the story he has come up with and rather than answer it, he tries to minimize it with this comment. It is an insult to those who died on the planes. Bad behavior.

'I would have beat the hijackers to death with my luggage' -Fetzer

This is an insult to all the victims on the planes, and an insult to all those who have ever been victims of hijackings prior to 911. Why didn't anyone beat DB Cooper to death with their luggage? Fetzer is accusing all the passengers of cowardice with monday morning Qarterbacking.

"The so-called passengers were likely government employees" (paraphrased and I forget by who, the rich guy)

Come ON Brumsen. Is this what you want your movement to be telling people?

The fact that these comments were made shows that there is a human disconnect on the part of the 911 deniers. The deniers already have a host of problems with entanglements with neo-nazis and anti-semites that they have refused to purge. Add to this a demonstrated contempt for the victims as shown above and you are seeing a movement that needs to get its act together, but refuses to.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 07:56 AM   #164
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
Quote:
'People are secondary' - Dylan Avery
That wasn't Dylan, it was Jason Bermas.

Quote:
"The so-called passengers were likely government employees"
Jimmy Walter, the same man who has a million dollar challenge. One of these conditions is proving explosions weren't used to bring down the towers in 8.4 seconds

http://www.reopen911.org/Contest.htm
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:04 AM   #165
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
That wasn't Dylan, it was Jason Bermas.
I stand corrected, but those guys seem pretty well joined.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:11 AM   #166
T.A.M.
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 20,795
I noticed over at LGF they can no longer see the film, as their link was to the Hot Air location, which has since been moved to their "Top Picks". If anyone here has a membership at LGF, perhaps someone could post the link to the youtube or google video site for them...
T.A.M. is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:17 AM   #167
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
I'm looking at the thread right now talking about little ol' me.

Uh, they do know that I already made a video that goes line-by-line of their famous documentary, right? And that I write a website listing my sources and so forth?

I've already did the debunking ordeal. Idiots.

And they say I don't debunk their claims...yeah I did.

- Dubai myth
- Jets were scrambled
- Bombs on Flight 93
- Mark Bingham's mother and her aunt
- Barbara Olsen using collect call
- Bodies found in the pentagon
- Saudi Arabia embassy for the hijackers
- Edna and the fires
- A fire safety expert agreeing with the official story
- Kevin Ryan being an idiot
- UL did not certify steel
- "Pull" from Firefighters
- WTC7 southside
- WTC7 was LEANING
- Todd Beamer's "Not that importent"

And probably a few more.

To say I did not present facts is BS. Just another example of BASELESS character assassination from these idiots.
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom

Last edited by MarkyX; 3rd August 2006 at 08:24 AM.
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:31 AM   #168
60hzxtl
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Jimmy Walter, the same man who has a million dollar challenge. One of these conditions is proving explosions weren't used to bring down the towers in 8.4 seconds

His challenge is no challenge - it requires you to prove a negative.

His money, (the joker has it!) is safe.
60hzxtl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:32 AM   #169
juryjone
Refusing to be confused by facts
 
juryjone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 878
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
If you have any interest in truly improving the tone of discourse, you will indeed go to the Loose Change forum and chastise them there. Othrwise, your motives for posting here are very suspect. Why tell one side they need to improve their manners, and not the other side, who is guilty of far more frequent and serious transgressions? It appears you're yelling at us, and doing absolutely nothing to similarly improve the behavior of CT'ers. Seems a little one sided to me. Why come here at all then?
I can tell you one thing he doesn't seem to be here to do: answer questions. brumsen, sould you please answer the questions Stellafane and I asked you about this post?
__________________
"Humanity is slipping into the void of ignorance while you cheer and wave." - Tirdun, in reference to geggy and the 9/11 conspiracy theorists
juryjone is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:33 AM   #170
brumsen
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
If you have any interest in truly improving the tone of discourse, you will indeed go to the Loose Change forum and chastise them there. Othrwise, your motives for posting here are very suspect. Why tell one side they need to improve their manners, and not the other side, who is guilty of far more frequent and serious transgressions? It appears you're yelling at us, and doing absolutely nothing to similarly improve the behavior of CT'ers. Seems a little one sided to me. Why come here at all then?
Please read this thread before accusing me of one-sidedness.
brumsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:42 AM   #171
brumsen
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by juryjone View Post
brumsen, sould you please answer the questions Stellafane and I asked you about this post?
OK then.

Originally Posted by juryjone View Post
I'm with Stellafane in wanting to know your reasoning behind this statement. I realize I haven't gone through the NIST report word for word, but in skimming through it I don't find anything that would, even "with broad brushstrokes", say that the government believes Islam is the enemy. Extremists, yes, but you don't see extremists of any stripe saying "Let's sit down and work this thing out." Extremists do things like...well, what they did.

Also, by "with broad brushtrokes" do you mean "in so many words"? In other words, are you saying that the reports don't say Islam is the enemy explicitly, but rather implies it? If so, you'd really have to come up with a lot of verbiage to justify the implication...
I did not mean the NIST report, since that's just about the collapses; nor even the 9/11 commission report. I meant US foreign policy since 9/11, which has been based on a certain picture of "the enemy".
Agreed, though, that it's not quite as simple as something that could boil down to "islam is the enemy".
brumsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:45 AM   #172
brumsen
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Come ON Brumsen. Is this what you want your movement to be telling people?
MY movement? What on earth are you talking about?
brumsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 08:53 AM   #173
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Well, for my opinion, let me toe the line here... I did watch all of MarkyX's new presentation, and on the whole I think it was well done. About 80% is simply echoing their own public performances which is completely fair game.

The remainder are things that I didn't fully understand, some segues and interludes that didn't feel connected -- for instance, the rabble-rousing terrorist videos. I assume the point was "look Dylan, these people are real," but the connection was weak. I don't think you want to attack both the Loosers and the terrorists in the same breath, since I don't see them as morally equivalent. Although if you can substantiate a link to Holocaust denial (it might there for Dylan, I don't know if there is one for the others, surely not all of them) you could try lumping them together...

This film is largely an appeal to emotion. However, it's also asking mindless viewers of Loose Change to consider the source. That's still fair. First thing I read in the newspaper is the opinion section, second thing I do is get some background on the people writing those opinions -- always consider the source.

Anyway, I do appreciate a good propaganda film, and MarkyX, yours works well. Got me nice and angry. Still, I see no cause for violence, and anyone motivated to violence after seeing your presentation is out of bounds, period. I think we can all agree on that. I see the purpose of your presentation as convincing the novice viewer that Avery and company aren't the altruistic defenders of freedom that they claim. This happens to be a fact, so "character assassination" it is not.

---

Cliff's Notes: Good film MarkyX, but some people will take this the wrong way. It's a powerful subject.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:00 AM   #174
Gravy
Downsitting Citizen
 
Gravy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,072
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
It is presenting reality in a certain way with a certain intention; namely to use things they say which are likely to stir up emotions in order to cast doubt on other things that they also say. I don't think the intention is right.

I wasn't accusing anybody of putting words in their mouths.
Well, I can tell you that several things motivated me to put together my "Loose Change Creators Speak" compilation.

I knew how nasty and ignorant many of the comments in LC were, and I pointed these out to its creators in a lengthy critique. I also pointed out dozens of factual errors, misleading statements, logical fallacies, misuses of images and quotes, etc. I did that because I had the impression that these guys didn't know how lousy their methods were. I wanted to sober them up.

It didn't work. When I heard the things they were saying on the radio recently, I couldn't believe it. In a few areas they improved slightly, such as Avery begrudgingly admitting that there probably were real passengers on the planes. But in many cases they've gotten worse, embellishing their fantastical (and thoroughly refuted) theories with even more absurd details.

So I started listening to the recorded interviews that are linked and promoted on their website. I didn't have to dig for this stuff: they're PROUD of it. The first thing I listened to was the piece that MarkyX and I started our compilations with: Avery saying that he would laugh in the faces of five armed hijackers, Avery laughing while the host insulted Chick Burlingame and his sister, Avery mocking the hijackers' murderous assaults, gleefully comparing boxcutters to butter knives, and saying that it was ridiculous that anyone could believe that these hijackings and murders took place.

And that was just the beginning. So I transcribed as much of their madness as I could bear. I thought it was important that they, and their supporters, be reminded of just how cruelly ignorant they are.

I also offered to sit down with the LC guys for a day and go over exactly where they were wrong (I gave them my critiques but I assume they didn't read them). Avery's response: "You're a waste of my time."

A couple of days ago Avery posted on LC that Mark Roberts isn't my real name, and that I often travel with a fat man in a suit who talks on a cell phone a lot. I've met Avery once. These people are stark, raving stupid, and as long as they continue to lie about 9/11, I'm going to call them on it.

Loose Change is just part of this equation. Fetzer, the former teacher of "critical thinking," is even louder, loonier, and just as offensive, although as far as I know he hasn't made any videos, thank Ed. Alex Jones is off the charts with paranoid hysterics. Steven Jones' 9/11 "research" is a mockery of the scientific method. Judy Wood laughingly compares the Twin Towers to trees with elves living in them. Morgan Reynolds doesn't think planes hit the Twin Towers. Jeff King thinks "Tesla weapons" may have brought down the Towers. Killtown, Hufschmidt, and Rajter show that they are well-rounded conspiracy theorists by also denying the Holocaust. David Ray Griffin does not believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon. Go to Ground Zero on Saturdays and hear how the FDNY was "in on it" and how the terrorists were victims, just like the people they murdered and the families they tore apart.

And on, and on.

These people's characters are plainly exposed by their own proud words.

The "9-11 Truth Movement" is an absolute disgrace to the truth. Don't like the tough talk? Too bad. These creeps have earned zero respect.
__________________
"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard

What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links
Gravy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:05 AM   #175
Regnad Kcin
Philosopher
 
Regnad Kcin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 8,990
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
...The US have a Very Serious problem here. Insufficient level of education to enable the masses to see through nonsense conspiracy mongering; and a government that trades in cover-ups and intransparency. Quite an explosive combination.
You are aware that anti-official-story conspiracy theorists have been flourishing around the world, no?
__________________
My heros are Alex Zanardi and Evelyn Glennie.
Regnad Kcin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:05 AM   #176
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
MY movement? What on earth are you talking about?
Poor choice of words on my part perhaps, but the question remains: Is this what you want for a 'truth movement'?
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:06 AM   #177
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
Quote:
I assume the point was "look Dylan, these people are real," but the connection was weak.
The connection I tried to bring (and I admit, it's weak) was that this fat texan man is bullhorning in Chicago about "invading the planet" by the "New World Order" but then I place a few clips that go against his statement and show how ignorant (or dismissal) Alex Jones is. Also, it is supposed show something that you won't see in the western media. I probably went over my head at that part, but it disguists me that people don't see that these muslim extermists aren't just in the Middle East. Just a few days ago, Montreal, my home town, some people were attacked by muslim extermists for siding with Israel. In Toronto, I hear protests from Muslims saying Sharia law should be enforced in Canada. That's why I wanted to show these clips. I want people to start being AWARE of what's going as opposed to simply ignorning it.

The general message of this scene was "Who are you going to believe...Alex Jones on a bullhorn, or the dozens upon dozens of islamic fundies that have commited numerous attacks for the past few years and saying that Islam will rule over the world" ?

Again, I admit that it is a weakpoint, but I am trying to show how ignorant they were at those clips. I think the "Freedom Fighters" bit worked much better.
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom

Last edited by MarkyX; 3rd August 2006 at 09:18 AM.
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:17 AM   #178
R.Mackey
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 7,854
Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
I probably went over my head at that part, but it disguists me that people don't see that these muslim extermists aren't just in the Middle East. Just a few days ago, Montreal, my home town, some people were attacked by muslim extermists for siding with Israel. In Toronto, I hear protests from Muslims saying Sharia law should be enforced in Canada. That's why I wanted to show these clips. I want people to start being AWARE of what's going as opposed to simply ignorning it.
Your point is correct and well taken, however I think it dilutes the message that 9/11 Deniers are not to be trusted. This is a separate topic. You might want to couch it with some words of introduction, or link the two by saying "these are real people with their own, non-US media outlets; they are not a fabrication of the CIA." Just a suggestion.
R.Mackey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:20 AM   #179
MarkyX
Master Poster
 
MarkyX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,157
Well too late for that.

I don't think it would affect the overall rating. If Loose Change can be accepted, then I'm sure this will go along fine.
__________________
MarkyX's Haunted Bloghouse - Read my boredom
MarkyX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:28 AM   #180
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
I most definitely agree. (I have watched the first part, and am currently undecided whether to watch the rest.)

I think much of the stuff done by people on this board is fairly decent as a response to Loose Change, but I feel that performing character assassination - even if the people targeted lend themselves to it quite easily because of what they say - is really not the way to go. Really Not.

Do you really expect the discussion to become any better by cranking up the sentiments? Answer honestly, now.
Character assassination is spreading rumors about drugs or something.

This is merely playing back these guys' own words in the context of images that reveal how thoughtless they are. It might be character suicide, but you can hardly call it character assassination.

I think the discussion will become better once this makes the rounds, yes. The reason is, more people will think twice about what they are saying or how they are framing it. Free speech cuts both ways.

edit: Are the news outlets who reported Mel Gibson's antisemitic remarks guilty of character assassination?

Last edited by chipmunk stew; 3rd August 2006 at 09:30 AM.
chipmunk stew is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:30 AM   #181
60hzxtl
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by chipmunk stew View Post
Free speech cuts both ways.
As does the internet, and its memory.
60hzxtl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:31 AM   #182
brumsen
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by Arkan_Wolfshade View Post
I think this is worthy of a thoughtful response. First, let me start by clarifying what "character assassination" is:
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination

Character assassination is an intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation of a particular person, whether living or a historical personage, in such a way as to cause others to develop an extremely negative, unethical or unappealing perception of him or her. By its nature, it involves deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts to present an untrue picture of the targeted person.[...]
In practice, character assassination usually consists of the spreading of rumors and deliberate misinformation on topics relating to one's morals, integrity, and reputation.


Now, by that definition, I don't think what MarkyX put together qualifies as character assassination. We can discuss this aspect further if you disagree with my assessment.
I'll take up your offer.

I find the wikipedia article unsatisfactory in that it says two different things. The definition mentions "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts" in an "intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation". I am not wholly convinced that MarkyX's video does not qualify as such, even if it does not engage in "spreading rumors and deliberate misinformation".

In short, it seems that I used the term "character assassination" according to the definition given here, and people react to me as if I accused MarkyX of putting things into their mouths or spreading deliberate misinformation about the Loosers. I did not intend to accuse him of that.
Nonetheless and moreover, I intended to say that it is not a good thing to engage in character assassination in, let's call it 'the narrow sense'. I am disappointed to find that most here appear to disagree with me on that.
brumsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:33 AM   #183
brumsen
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 438
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Poor choice of words on my part perhaps, but the question remains: Is this what you want for a 'truth movement'?
Not really, no. But how to change that is the question.
brumsen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:43 AM   #184
Arkan_Wolfshade
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,154
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
I'll take up your offer.

I find the wikipedia article unsatisfactory in that it says two different things. The definition mentions "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts" in an "intentional attempt to influence the portrayal or reputation". I am not wholly convinced that MarkyX's video does not qualify as such, even if it does not engage in "spreading rumors and deliberate misinformation".

In short, it seems that I used the term "character assassination" according to the definition given here, and people react to me as if I accused MarkyX of putting things into their mouths or spreading deliberate misinformation about the Loosers. I did not intend to accuse him of that.
Nonetheless and moreover, I intended to say that it is not a good thing to engage in character assassination in, let's call it 'the narrow sense'. I am disappointed to find that most here appear to disagree with me on that.
Can you give an example from MarkyX's production that you feel qualifies as "deliberate exaggeration or manipulation of facts"?
Arkan_Wolfshade is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:51 AM   #185
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,757
Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
Not really, no. But how to change that is the question.
Get the message out that any attacks on the passengers or victims undermines the movement. Both Gravy and I started working against Loose Change because of the way Dylan mocked passengers such as Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer and Flight Attendant Betty Ong. I tend to think that the childish attacks (including Fetzer's claim that he would have beaten the hijackers to death with his luggage) reflect frustration over the fact that the passengers are the biggest obstacle to the CT proposed by LC and others. Hence they lash out at the passengers.
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 09:54 AM   #186
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 74,614
Originally Posted by Gravy View Post
A couple of days ago Avery posted on LC that Mark Roberts isn't my real name, and that I often travel with a fat man in a suit who talks on a cell phone a lot.
Okay, now I get it, Abby.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:02 AM   #187
Bronze Dog
Copper Alloy Canid
 
Bronze Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,993
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Get the message out that any attacks on the passengers or victims undermines the movement. Both Gravy and I started working against Loose Change because of the way Dylan mocked passengers such as Mark Bingham, Todd Beamer and Flight Attendant Betty Ong. I tend to think that the childish attacks (including Fetzer's claim that he would have beaten the hijackers to death with his luggage) reflect frustration over the fact that the passengers are the biggest obstacle to the CT proposed by LC and others. Hence they lash out at the passengers.
Reminds me of people who think that all the doctors on Earth can be cowed by the Big Pharma CEOs. It seems to show a low opinion of humanity in general.
__________________
Stop Sylvia Browne

Warning: Beware of contaminated water supplies! Suspected source of contamination: Sarah-I

A non-Rockstar Rambler and dissector of Doggerel
Bronze Dog is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:04 AM   #188
Dog Town
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,862
Have you seen this ****?

Next

Last edited by Dog Town; 3rd August 2006 at 10:14 AM.
Dog Town is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:07 AM   #189
chipmunk stew
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,448
Originally Posted by dylan
http://loosechange911.blogspot.com/2...gotta-run.html

I'm trying to find out if they'll be taking call-ins.
chipmunk stew is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:07 AM   #190
Dog Town
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,862
Have you seen this ****?

Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534
Dog Town is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:11 AM   #191
negativ
Graduate Poster
 
negativ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,904
Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Did you think it was "insane" when johndoex threatened to shoot billzilla? Did you similarly admonish him at the LC forum?
Are these thread(s) still available over there? I was trying to look for posts by BillZilla and apparently either their search function sucks, or my ability to use it does. I'm OK with either one. A nice, hand-holding link would be appreciated.
negativ is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:20 AM   #192
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534
So FIVE YEARS after the fact they get one 'deathbed' witness who has no evidence beyond his word.

I do not think this is reliable.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:40 AM   #193
realitybites
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,066
Originally Posted by negativ View Post
Are these thread(s) still available over there? I was trying to look for posts by BillZilla and apparently either their search function sucks, or my ability to use it does. I'm OK with either one. A nice, hand-holding link would be appreciated.
Go to page 12 of this thread. Think it's around there somewhere.
realitybites is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:40 AM   #194
Dog Town
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,862
Agree with ya there Kook. It is going to be used by the CTers more and more.They think they have found the mother of all witnesses, to go along with the "deep" Norad ass covering joke.
Dog Town is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 10:53 AM   #195
60hzxtl
Muse
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 697
Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
So FIVE YEARS after the fact they get one 'deathbed' witness who has no evidence beyond his word.

I do not think this is reliable.
Here a poster claims to be Danner's son, and debunks the confession. Might be the first bit of truth from the truthers!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=8567
60hzxtl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 11:06 AM   #196
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by realitybites View Post
Go to page 12 of this thread. Think it's around there somewhere.
Hmm, yah.

Quote:
You can do as you damn well please.. .but if you come to my land trying to push your rhetoric on me... or even try to force your rhetoric on me, i'll be extremely proud to introduce you to the Second Amendment.
This was in regards to him saying that Billzilla had not right to debate him since he was not an American (but listed Americans who were 'allowed', Billzilla said he'd do as he pleased. Then the above was written as a response.

So since the presumption is that he'll debate Abby, Gravy and MarkyX, at ground zero, but will shoot Billzilla if he brings those deadly and foreign 'words' to the same place.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 11:07 AM   #197
realitybites
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,066
Bingham not on manifest?

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9536

The CTers are doing their usual "happy dance of joy" for this find. Anyone here have info on this?
realitybites is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 11:09 AM   #198
Gravy
Downsitting Citizen
 
Gravy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 17,072
Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Duhh here from SLC. Love this site here. This is another bunch of BS to go along with the"deep" norad coverup. This pilot claims to have seen a globalhawk hit the Pentagon. He watched LC and had to come forward. It's lighting up the board at ATS. You guys are the shizak! You guys prob saw this allready.Just trying to share. Wont let me leave url, so here it be
no www,just //vancouver.indymedia.org/?q=en/node/1534
Hi Dog Town. Samuel Denner, the "new" witness, is a fraud. Well, that goes without saying, but even his son says so. The son posted to a thread on the LC forum and Russell and Merc have corresponded with him and confirmed the story. A sad story, although supposedly the dad wants to "come clean."

I'd point you to the thread at LC but I'm IP banned. You can use the search feature to find it.
__________________
"Please, keep your chops cool and don’t overblow.” –Freddie Hubbard

What's the Harm?........Stop Sylvia Browne........My 9/11 links
Gravy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 11:09 AM   #199
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,757
Originally Posted by 60hzxtl View Post
Here a poster claims to be Danner's son, and debunks the confession. Might be the first bit of truth from the truthers!

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=8567
Yeah, this story stinks to high heaven. I did a little googling of Danner, and found this article by good old Christopher Bollyn:

Quote:
When he got to the "crash" site, he was mystified when he did not see any luggage or parts of a 100-ton aircraft at all.
If he saw a small plane with no windows, why would he be "mystified" not to see luggage or parts of a 100-ton aircraft?
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 3rd August 2006, 11:16 AM   #200
Brainster
Penultimate Amazing
 
Brainster's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 15,757
Originally Posted by realitybites View Post
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9536

The CTers are doing their usual "happy dance of joy" for this find. Anyone here have info on this?
Bingham was the last person on the plane; both Flight 93 and United 93 have scenes of him dashing through the airport. IIRC, the only reason he got on the plane was the delay; they had reportedly closed the door and re-opened it to let him on.

Quote:
One passenger was late. Mark Bingham had overslept and his friend, Matthew Hall, drove madly from Manhattan to Newark. They screeched to a halt outside Terminal A at 7:40. Bingham leapt from the car, lugging the old, blue-and-gold canvas bag he'd used as a rugby player at the University of California at Berkeley a decade earlier.

United attendants reopened the door to the boarding ramp and let him on the plane.
Not that this will impress the "Sacred List" idiots. Also, note that none of them are remarking on the presence of the hijackers on that list.

Oh, and welcome, Dog Town!
__________________
My new blog: Recent Reads.
1960s Comic Book Nostalgia
Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

Last edited by Brainster; 3rd August 2006 at 11:23 AM.
Brainster is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories » 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:53 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.