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Tags loose change , part 4 , 911 conspiracy theory

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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:05 PM   #281
JamesB
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
The journal for 9/11 studies:

Editors:

Prof. Steven E. Jones
Department of Physics and Astronomy
N-269 Eyring Science Center
Brigham Young University
Provo, Utah, USA 84602
Steven_Jones@byu.edu

ADVISORY EDITORIAL BOARD

Alex Floum, Marcus Ford, Derrick Grimmer, Richard McGinn, Kimberly Moore, Robert Moore, Diana Ralph, Kevin Ryan, Robert Stevens, Lon Waters and Paul Zarembka.

Manuscripts to be considered for publication should be sent to one of the Editors. All papers will be subjected to peer-review prior to online publication.

Preferably, manuscripts should be submitted electronically. Referee reports and correspondence should also be sent by e-mail if possible.


I post this, as it is suppose to contain "peer reviewed articles". Is the advisory board the "Peers" who review, and if not then who? If so, anyone know their qualifications.

I am guess it is a farce of a legitimate peer review.
I asked that question on the forum that Brumsen set up. It was suggested I inquire with Steven Jones. Yeah, like that is going to work.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:08 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just watched the "9/11 deniers speak" video.

It really is infuriating how much total disregard for anything of value these people have.

And this Fetzer fellow's a real piece of work, isn't he ? Yep. Beat 'em up with your luggage, boy. See if that works.

I guess these hijackers (who would not let you use a credit card) would not slice you to bits-while you reach up into the overhead compartment to get your James Bond briefcase. The one with the hidden knife and concealed gun camera.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:16 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
According to FAA website..

http://www.faa.gov/ATPUBS/MIL/Ch1/mil0103.3.html

Scramble. Departure of an aircraft training for or for the purpose of participating in an air defense mission.

Scramble Order. A command and authorization for flight requiring time, of not more than 5 minutes, to become airborne.

Intercept is also a seperate order

Intercept. The encounter with or tracking of an airborne object, normally as a result of a flight path preplanned to effect such encounter in the shortest practicable time.

In conclusion, just because a plane scrambles doesn't mean they intercept. Both are completely seperate entities.
to further elaborate on this, according to 911myths the 67 scrambles were in NORAD's ADIZ (air defense intercept zone) and before 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ, so none of these 67 scramble/intercepts would have taken place in US airspace, to date the only report ive seen of an intercept of a civilian aircraft over US soil was Payne Stewart's jet
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:19 PM   #284
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Speaking of "The C-Span Debacle" any ever buy Thermite on E-Bay? Sounds fun for the 4th.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:20 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
There was a video on youtube of some US soldiers putting a thermite grenade on a safe they found and igniting it, but it doesn't seem to be there any more. Basically they were goofing off, didn't look like they were carrying out an order or anything like that. Just doing stuff any 19 year old would do given a thermite grenade coupled w/ boredom...

eta: found it on google video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...67460324643450
I hope they didn't expect to find anything in the safe afterwards....

The thermite videos (and there are a bunch on youtube and google video) are interesting in a particular aspect -- no matter what container they seem to put the thermite in the bottom of the container is destroyed but the sides are barely damaged. How the heck would you take out a vertical column with this stuff?
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:31 PM   #286
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I heard an interesting story today, a guy was telling me about a concrete "wall" he had built out of old A/C compressor pads put up on end. These are usually a couple of inches thick with wire mesh or rebar in them.

He was burning some old wood trash (yes, still legal in many parts of missouri) in front of the wall. After awhile he started hearing these pops and bangs (like an m80 according to him.) At first he thought it was the wood, but after the fire burned down he notice the fronts of the concrete had exploded off exposing the wire mesh. He figures the metal heated up very quickly and basically blew the fronts of the pads off.

Anyone know if this is common in building fires where there is a concrete floor, especially when a flammable liquid is poured on the concrete? I'd be curious if this happened on floors in the WTC that were on fire.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 07:31 PM   #287
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With sooper doooper poooper mate....shhh top secret. Coming to a WAL-MART near you! Sorry that was for your last post.K.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 08:12 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Jones says that somebody's taken a patent out on a device that is capable of cutting at a 45 degree angle to horizontal, so it would make a diagonal cut. I don't know if thermate is capable of shooting out like that, because of course it would have to come out with some force to get through those steel girders. I think Gravy pointed out that while Jones has said that the discovery of one of these at the WTC would prove the CT, doesn't the non-discovery of thousands of them disprove it?

BTW, Jones was not lying in his speech when he said you can buy thermite/thermate on ebay. They ship it via priority mail, so it must be stable.
The CTers are under the impression they have photographic evidence of such a cut. The clean-up crews' oxyacetylene torches aren't even a remote possibility for them.

So what are we up to now for the CTCD...?

X amount of explosives. X amount of thermite/mate. X amount of fuses. X amount of angled thermite devices. X amount of wiring. X amount of detonators. X amount of ingnition soucres. X number of CD specialists willing to kill innocent people and keep quiet about it. X number of hours to survey, prep, and set said devices without anyone seeing. And Dick Cheney.

.... Cake walk.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 08:17 PM   #289
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anyone care to make a prediction on what will and wont be in LC3?

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/...?showtopic=139
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Old 3rd August 2006, 08:40 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by defaultdotxbe View Post
anyone care to make a prediction on what will and wont be in LC3?

http://screwloosechange.xbehome.com/...?showtopic=139
It'll be a music video.

Or, the 9/11 Conspiracy Circus, with a ring representing the right, a ring representng the left,and in the center ring, wearing the top hat, and holding the whip, will be Ring Master Dylan Avery.

There will be a disproportionate number of clowns in this circus, and the guy with the broom and the shovel will have the hardest job.

Loose Change - The Greatest Snow on Earth!
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Old 3rd August 2006, 08:59 PM   #291
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Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

Quote:
Hello Mark. I just watched your captions to the aforementioned video. I am a neutral observer trying to piece together the events of 911 for myself through evidence and not through mere alligations. I have a college degree and am a recent graduate of the University of Kentucky. I have a degree in Telecommunications and am a film editor in Dallas, TX. It seems to me, in my opinion, if these alligations are so perposterous that there would be no need for you to try and disprove these notions with blatant pleas of sympathy and patriotism. Do you have a degree or have any formal schooling? Well, if you don't, let me be the first to tell you that nepotism is a major American and human theme. The phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is perhaps the most true phrase I have ever heard. Those with power will do anything to retain it if they can justify it in their own minds. Look at the mob for example and their dedication to family and "Christian" values with a blatant disregard for human life. I am sorry it is hard for you to question. I realize your importance for some in your rallying of a "simple" cause to a huge problem. We were attacked, that makes it "OK" for us to attack at will. I think that your video in and of itself is argument enough alone for the cause you aim to disprove. If this is so wildl to you, why do you spend so much time trying to disprove it? That means you think that people will believe it. If you know more than these other people, you are self-riteous and believe that you know more than others. You should take a step back. I am educated and I am not satisfied with the explinations of 9/11. I think that when the nation as a whole has been presented with all the evidence available then we can make a legitimate decision. But, as the video and numerous other video's have shown, we simply are not privy to all the information available. I think that instead of pleading to emotion, if you truly cared about dispelling this myth then you should also fight to see these hidden tapes and fight to have lie-detector test administered to those accused, and sworn testimony written in the records of Congress. Until this happens, you can spit back your opinion and others will spit back at you. We will never have all the answers unless we work together to learn the things that have been held from us.

If this kid wants to sell t-shirts let him. That is America my friend. People will always burn flags, spit on people and kill each other. But the U.S. is on trial here, and if I was a juror I would demand more info before reaching an innocent decision for the defendent. I hope you would to if I was on trial. I hope you would use your comic book endorsement and other ad money from your site to help your arguments build and end this conspiracy. I hope you are using your newly stuffed pockets to help the victims of 9/11 and not spend a dime on yourself. But....I would assume you have paid yourself for your "patriotic duty." You may not have a t-shirt but you have spent a couple extra bucks on yourself. Lets find the truth together...but I don't think you are interested in investing your money on that kind of project....you should probably use it to invest in haliburton or other arms dealers...as we can all see in recent light how they are the ones who are profiting from this unfortunate event.
I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:20 PM   #292
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Quote:
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.
Good grief. Why is it that these people demand you question the government, but hate it when you question them?

Of course Avery has the right to say what he wants. Doesn't mean he has the right to have it go unchecked.

You know, I've talked with people about what it is that Avery, Bermas, Fetzer, etc, etc are after. After watching your "911 deniers speak" videos, you can see that these people are treated like small town rockstars. They are cheered and adored. Christ, Fetzer looks just like a fire-and-brimstone preacher at the pulpit. And after his "Americans would fight back" spiel, he's applauded and cheered.

These people will never give up. Not because they don't believe, but because they will never have a fan base as large.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:25 PM   #293
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A little story.

My second time at GZ with the troothers, I brought a buddy. He wasn't nearly as into this stuff as I am, but recognizes it for the comedic goldmine that it is. He started flirting with a young, lady truther and had the following exchanges:

"So, any cute guys in the truth movement?"

"Look around."

"I'll take that as a 'no'."

He went on, "So you must feel complete now, huh?"

"Excuse me?"

"Well, you know, you have a purpose now. Any hole that you had before is now filled."

These people now have a reason. When I first met Les Jamison, the guy from Ronald Wieck's show, I asked him if he was a scientist. He said "Yes."

I was incredulous, "You are?"

"Well, I'm a researcher."

Now he gets a title. He'll never back down. Not because there isn't enough compelling evidence. He's important now.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:26 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I hope they didn't expect to find anything in the safe afterwards....

The thermite videos (and there are a bunch on youtube and google video) are interesting in a particular aspect -- no matter what container they seem to put the thermite in the bottom of the container is destroyed but the sides are barely damaged. How the heck would you take out a vertical column with this stuff?

Put the thermite in a container. Twist the container 90 degrees and attach the bottom of the container to the side of the vertical column.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:28 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).
Doesn't say much for the purported quality of education at the University of Kentucky. "self-riteous, explinations, video's", eh? After he spends several sentences talking about how well-educated he is.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:34 PM   #296
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Dying to see ya rip him for that.You.... you.... unedgamacated hickkk!
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:34 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Abbyas View Post
A little story.

These people now have a reason. When I first met Les Jamison, the guy from Ronald Wieck's show, I asked him if he was a scientist. He said "Yes."

I was incredulous, "You are?"

"Well, I'm a researcher."

Now he gets a title. He'll never back down. Not because there isn't enough compelling evidence. He's important now.
I think he means he's science-curious. He certainly came off as an incredibly dim bulb in that interview with Wieck. Of course I'm not sure anybody in the 9-11 Denial Movement could have handled that questioning.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 09:51 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by T.A.M. View Post
So I am reading roger over at LC, and he is commenting that the air force has admitted to "Scrambling" jets 67 times, but that PM says that the only plane intercepted was payne stewarts, and that this a huge mistake made by the PM article.
Here's what PM actually said:

Quote:
In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999.
One plane over North America. And the others?

Quote:
Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ).
They admit there were other interceptions, but these were not over North America. No conflict with the 67 scrambles claim here.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=3&c=y

The same claim is repeated in Plane & Pilot magazine:

Quote:
Terms like Air Defense Identification Zone (ADIZ) and temporary flight restriction (TFR) quickly came into widespread use among the general-aviation pilot group. Those terms had been around for years. Military fighters and the ADIZ protected American coasts from intrusions by Russian Bear Bombers throughout the Cold War. TFRs were used for presidential security and other extraordinary events. But they weren’t part of a pilot’s everyday life. You didn’t get intercepted and forced down if you flew through a TFR.

Today, things are different. There’s an ADIZ that surrounds Washington, D.C. In the four years after 9/11, it was violated over 1,000 times. The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) has scrambled fighters for intercepts within U.S. borders over 1,600 times. In the year previous to 9/11, NORAD intercepted airplanes in the ADIZ only 67 times, none of which occurred within the U.S. borders.
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/cont...sting_tfr.html
One or two other comments at http://www.911myths.com/html/67_intercepts.html
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Old 3rd August 2006, 10:31 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.
Why can't someone so educated spend the hour or so to figure out how little substance the CT'ers have backing them up.

And when he talks about giving all the "suspects" lie detector tests, does he realize that there would be thousands of people needed to keep this conspiracy running, so the test would run into the millions. Not to mention that lie detectors are a load of crap anyway.

Should I mention my degree in this post, and every email I send out it just makes me sound so much more learned.
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Old 3rd August 2006, 10:37 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Doesn't say much for the purported quality of education at the University of Kentucky. "self-riteous, explinations, video's", eh? After he spends several sentences talking about how well-educated he is.
That's just what I was thinking, except that you missed "alligations" and "perposterous". Is it really possible to get a degree in Telecommunications without being able to spell properly?
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Old 3rd August 2006, 11:28 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.
Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?
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Old 3rd August 2006, 11:30 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
I asked that question on the forum that Brumsen set up. It was suggested I inquire with Steven Jones. Yeah, like that is going to work.
So, did you?
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Old 3rd August 2006, 11:49 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?
Because we, or just I, have enough evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion.The other things will come in time.My question is this; what will deniers say when that happens? Claim it all to be fake? Careful, keeping score here!

Last edited by Dog Town; 3rd August 2006 at 11:51 PM.
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Old 4th August 2006, 12:29 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
Because we, or just I, have enough evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion.The other things will come in time.My question is this; what will deniers say when that happens? Claim it all to be fake? Careful, keeping score here!
Typical. "We have all the evidence we need, and anyway any new evidence is going to be claimed fake by conspiracists since it's not going to fit with their beliefs, so no point in releasing it". This attitude is not doing much for credibility.
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Old 4th August 2006, 12:41 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
Typical. "We have all the evidence we need, and anyway any new evidence is going to be claimed fake by conspiracists since it's not going to fit with their beliefs, so no point in releasing it". This attitude is not doing much for credibility.

Enough to make a reasonable conclusion, does not mean it will not be nice when we get the rest. It will be !!!!!!!.Look to the wealth of info from Moose Boy the retarded hijacker trial. Did any of it help your theories out at all? I did't think so:-0....... As for credibility, the CTers seem to have the problems in that realm.So what was your point? BTW Should I put you down for "it will all be fake" vote?

Last edited by Dog Town; 4th August 2006 at 12:50 AM.
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Old 4th August 2006, 12:43 AM   #306
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A brave structural/fire protection engineer has waded into the intellect sucking black hole of stupid that is the LC forums:

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Ch...showtopic=9595

I sent him an invite to come say Hi to us here once he's been banned for failure to meet the minimum smilies per post quota.
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Old 4th August 2006, 12:48 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by Dog Town View Post
As for credibility, the CTers seem to have the problems in that realm.So what was your point?
so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.
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Old 4th August 2006, 12:52 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.

See that wasn't so hard ,now was it? Have a beer with that epiphany! You've earned it.
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Old 4th August 2006, 01:57 AM   #309
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Quote:
Seems to me like this is a brilliant example of how we can expect the discussion to improve as a result of your video.

On one thing he is right though, IMHO. Why is there not a more concerted effort from debunkers' side to have all possible evidence released, incl. testimonies under oath?

Debunkers only require sufficent evidence to rebut the claims of the CTs. It is really up to CTs to prove their case and acquire the evidence to do so. Is there any specific evidence you would like to see released?

Testimonies under oath? Suppose Larry Silverstein testified under oath that he meant pull out the firefighters when he said "pull it". Do you think that would make one jot of difference to the CTs?
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Old 4th August 2006, 03:52 AM   #310
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From the e-mail MarkyX received... one thing stuck out...

Quote:
But the U.S. is on trial here, and if I was a juror I would demand more info before reaching an innocent decision for the defendent.


You need evidence to be proven innocent???

I'm frightened.

-Andrew
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:03 AM   #311
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Okay,

On a more serious note. I have been reading comments in response to the "9/11 Deniers Speak" video. Interesting points raised. I'd just like to offer my fair share of points.

Once, in order to speak out with any authority on a topic, one had to be an authority. The people who created works of scientific or investigative nature (originally "Books") these people could not get their works published unless they were recognised to be an authority.

The same is not true today. Anyone can be "published". PCs provide the tools for self-authorship. The internet provides a ready audience for self-publication.

Thus being "published", having created a work, does not promise status as an authority, the way it used to. As such, it is only just, and right, and responsible, that people who publish their works in this way present their credentials. Work that is not supported by authority should be rejected (Note, I am using "authority" in the scientific sense, not the government sense).

When people do not present their credentials, it is only just and right and proper that the market for these works seek those credentials independently.

And when people discover that the "authors" of works are not authorities, and have no credentials, it is the duty of those people to inform the rest of the audience of this fact.

Would any of us allow a doctor without qualifications to go unhindered? Would we leave a fake policeman unexposed? Would we look the other way while a con-man herbalist tricks cancer sufferers into handing over their money for false promises?

I would not. Never. I would expose those people for what they are, without remorse, without sympathy.

This is what MarkyX has done with the "Deniers Speak" video. He has drawn down the curtain and revealed the little weedy man behind the wizard. He has exposed the charlatans, who feast on human misery like some kind of ghoul.

I applaud his work, and I applaud the work of everyone else here who has worked tirelessly to battle this wave of ignorance.

May the whole world see these miserable peddlers in paranoia for what they truly are.

The consequences of the truth are the burden of these people, and they alone. May they reap what they sow.

-Andrew

ETA. Okay, I ranted a little... but the sentiment remains.
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:10 AM   #312
Sword_Of_Truth
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Attack of The Son of The Chicken Coop Arsonist!

Title of a cheesy 1950's horror movie? The title of the even more cheesy next star wars novie?

Or how about a kid who needs to give up 9-11 conspiracism and go... i don't know...talk to a girl, maybe?

http://www.freewebs.com/democraatus/page04.htm
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:48 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Well, it would work (assuming everybody else fought back as well).
Depending on what's in the luggage...
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:52 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.

I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).
He talks as though the US court system assumes the accused is guilty until proven innocent.

And what's "self-riteous". Are we a cult, now ?
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:57 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by brumsen View Post
so... debunkers do not need to address any problems they might have in that realm? Ah yes I see, it's much more pressing to spend energy on showing what stoopids these Loosers are.
Brumsen, I've asked many CT'ers what problem exactly they have w/ the official NIST reports. Specific problems, please give the report and page number. And guess what - none has ever been able to do so. All we ever get is a generic "the official report is a joke" type response or a classic moving the goal post tactic such as "well did they match up all the plane parts serial numbers w/ the maintenance records".

So I'll ask you - what exactly do you think is wrong w/ the official NIST reports?
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Old 4th August 2006, 04:59 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by gumboot View Post
From the e-mail MarkyX received... one thing stuck out...





You need evidence to be proven innocent???

I'm frightened.

-Andrew
Exactly - jurys can only find a defendant guilty or not guilty. They don't ever declare innocence, and for good reason.
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Old 4th August 2006, 05:07 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by kevin View Post
I heard an interesting story today, a guy was telling me about a concrete "wall" he had built out of old A/C compressor pads put up on end. These are usually a couple of inches thick with wire mesh or rebar in them.

He was burning some old wood trash (yes, still legal in many parts of missouri) in front of the wall. After awhile he started hearing these pops and bangs (like an m80 according to him.) At first he thought it was the wood, but after the fire burned down he notice the fronts of the concrete had exploded off exposing the wire mesh. He figures the metal heated up very quickly and basically blew the fronts of the pads off.

Anyone know if this is common in building fires where there is a concrete floor, especially when a flammable liquid is poured on the concrete? I'd be curious if this happened on floors in the WTC that were on fire.
It's called "spalling", and when it happens rapidly, as is common in a fire, it makes loud pops and bangs. NIST has a section in their WTC fire test reports observing spalling and the associated noise.
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Old 4th August 2006, 05:19 AM   #318
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As Gravy knows, I've only just started dipping my toes in this whole controversy.
I had a small question about the box cutters. Can anyone tell me where I can find the phonecall transcripts where the passengers and/or the flight attendants stated that the terrorists had killed/stabbed people. I've found the Betty Ong transcript, but I was wondering if it was mentioned on the other flights (united 93 specifically) also. Google is such a mess to wade through.
Thanks!
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Old 4th August 2006, 05:21 AM   #319
chipmunk stew
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Originally Posted by MarkyX View Post
Most. Arrogant. Email. Ever.



I love the part where he accuses me of making a crapload of money out of this because I slapped my webcomic banner on it (it's on the same server. Bandwidth ain't free).
The U.S. is on trial??? WTF?!?

Sounds like this ******* just finished a couple of 101 courses at community college to me.

Quote:
let me be the first to tell you that nepotism is a major American and human theme. The phrase "It's not what you know, it's who you know" is perhaps the most true phrase I have ever heard.
meaning
Quote:
Let me demonstrate how educated I am by reducing the motive behind the 9/11 conspiracy to a phrase I read in my sociology textbook which, like, totally blew my mind.
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Old 4th August 2006, 05:25 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by gtc View Post
Put the thermite in a container. Twist the container 90 degrees and attach the bottom of the container to the side of the vertical column.
Well, if you close the lid tightly enough while it's vertical, won't you trap the gravity in?
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