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Old 11th September 2020, 03:51 PM   #1
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Countries normalising relations with Israel

UAE, and now Bahrain, brokered by Trump's son-in-law if the report I read, reads right. Analysis suggesting Saudi Arabia garnering allies against Iran, but so much of middle-eastern politics appears to be anything but straightforward.

Convenient timing for the president I suppose.
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Old 11th September 2020, 09:22 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
UAE, and now Bahrain, brokered by Trump's son-in-law if the report I read, reads right. Analysis suggesting Saudi Arabia garnering allies against Iran, but so much of middle-eastern politics appears to be anything but straightforward.

Convenient timing for the president I suppose.
Hilarious! A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:22 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hilarious! A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
To be fair, I expected them to be at war once Trump was done negotiating.
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Old 11th September 2020, 10:31 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hilarious! A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
It's almost like Trump and Kushie had bugger-all to do with the situation.
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Old 12th September 2020, 08:45 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It's almost like Trump and Kushie had bugger-all to do with the situation.
There are other possibilities (as I mentioned in the American politics/trump thread)...

- it may be done as a way to boost Trump's election chances (seeing him as a useful idiot, and someone who will try to maintain dependence on fossil fuels, which benefits Islamic countries, and ignoring Israeli transgressions)

- it may be an attempt to buy American weapons. "See? We are at peace! Sell us some F35s"

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Old 12th September 2020, 11:34 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There are other possibilities (as I mentioned in the American politics/trump thread)...

- it may be done as a way to boost Trump's election chances (seeing him as a useful idiot, and someone who will try to maintain dependence on fossil fuels, which benefits the oil-rich Islamic countries, and ignoring Israeli transgressions)
FTFY
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Old 13th September 2020, 03:16 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hilarious! A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
And which would have had to go through at least two other countries in order to wage war upon each other.

But trade relations are good to have, I guess. (Except for USA, of course. USA prefers to have tariffs, especially against other western nations.)
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Old 13th September 2020, 03:51 AM   #8
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Quote:
But this latest Arab-Israeli entente is neither a bolt from the blue nor the result of months of delicate shuttle diplomacy by the Trump administration. Israel and the Arab leaders in the Persian Gulf had been quietly cultivating ties for years, united by their common antipathy toward Iran and worries about a vacuum in the region because of American retrenchment.

“The import of this is much more strategic than peace-related,” said Martin S. Indyk, who served as American ambassador to Israel under Bill Clinton and Middle East peace envoy under Barack Obama.

The White House harnessed these forces, recognizing an opportunity to make progress on one front after its failure on another: brokering a peace accord between Israel and the Palestinians.
Plus plenty more detail as to why this has bugger-all to do with Kushie or Trump, and everything to do with longer-term visions by Middle Eastern statespeople, regional re-alignments, and the outcomes of the instability caused by Trump pulling the USA out of the region. Typical Trump, having done nothing but make things worse, he is taking credit for other peoples' efforts after leaving the room.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/w...in-israel.html
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:02 AM   #9
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On the face of it, what is there really to oppose from the UAE and Israel normalizing relations?


According to Wiki:

Quote:
The Israel–United Arab Emirates normalization agreement, or the Abraham Accord,[1] was agreed to by Israel and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) on August 13, 2020. If an agreement is signed, the UAE will be the third Arab country, after Egypt in 1979 and Jordan in 1994, to formally normalize its relationship with Israel,[1][2][3] as well as the first Persian Gulf country to do so.[4][5] Concurrently, Israel agreed to suspend plans for annexing parts of the West Bank.[4][6]
Well, I personally welcome countries (particularly Arab and Muslim nations) normalizing their relations with Israel, and also for Israel to stop annexing the West Bank.

I am in favour of a two-state solution of Israel and Palestine both being recognized, so on the face of it, I don't see the problem.

Now, obviously this will be opposed by, on the one hand, people who hate Israel, and on the other, by people who hate Palestinians and want to annex the entire West Bank. Assuming people posting here are neither, what is the problem?

Originally Posted by commandlinegamer View Post
UAE, and now Bahrain, brokered by Trump's son-in-law if the report I read, reads right. Analysis suggesting Saudi Arabia garnering allies against Iran, but so much of middle-eastern politics appears to be anything but straightforward.

Convenient timing for the president I suppose.
Does it really matter? If it is a good thing, it is a good thing.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Hilarious! A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
So what? The point is normalizing of diplomatic relations. That seems a good thing. I don't know what there is to oppose.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It's almost like Trump and Kushie had bugger-all to do with the situation.
Ah, okay. Maybe they don't. But earlier it was suggested that maybe they did and were timing it for their benefit. I guess it can't really be both.

Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
There are other possibilities (as I mentioned in the American politics/trump thread)...

- it may be done as a way to boost Trump's election chances (seeing him as a useful idiot, and someone who will try to maintain dependence on fossil fuels, which benefits Islamic countries, and ignoring Israeli transgressions)

- it may be an attempt to buy American weapons. "See? We are at peace! Sell us some F35s"
I think this is really going into the realm of analysis by pure conjecture of worst of all possible motives. ("Oh yeah, sure it was nice of you to help that random old lady cross the road, but what is it you really want to do? Get into her knickers or get into her will? Huh?")

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Plus plenty more detail as to why this has bugger-all to do with Kushie or Trump, and everything to do with longer-term visions by Middle Eastern statespeople, regional re-alignments, and the outcomes of the instability caused by Trump pulling the USA out of the region. Typical Trump, having done nothing but make things worse, he is taking credit for other peoples' efforts after leaving the room.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/w...in-israel.html
Ummm... yeah, about that failure to solve all the problems of the Middle East thing. Guess what! Absolutely nobody has ever solved all the problems of the Middle East. That's way too high a bar to call Trump a failure on.

Look, I get it. We all hate Donald Trump. But this kind of petty sniping looks pretty silly. If Obama had got this deal signed, then the stuff being written here is exactly what I would expect from the Republicans and people like Rush Limbaugh.
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Old 13th September 2020, 07:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
On the face of it, what is there really to oppose from the UAE and Israel normalizing relations?
Which tribe of illiterate goat herders the giant invisible sky wizard promised this strip of desert scrub land thousands of years ago is SUPER IMPORTANT AND SERIOUS.
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Old 13th September 2020, 07:49 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Which tribe of illiterate goat herders the giant invisible sky wizard promised this strip of desert scrub land thousands of years ago is SUPER IMPORTANT AND SERIOUS.
Sure, that's what the fighting is about. Now some of them are saying they are going to stop fighting. Sounds good to me.
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Old 13th September 2020, 01:23 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Well, I personally welcome countries (particularly Arab and Muslim nations) normalizing their relations with Israel, and also for Israel to stop annexing the West Bank.

I am in favour of a two-state solution of Israel and Palestine both being recognized, so on the face of it, I don't see the problem.

Now, obviously this will be opposed by, on the one hand, people who hate Israel, and on the other, by people who hate Palestinians and want to annex the entire West Bank. Assuming people posting here are neither, what is the problem?

Does it really matter? If it is a good thing, it is a good thing.

So what? The point is normalizing of diplomatic relations. That seems a good thing. I don't know what there is to oppose.

Ah, okay. Maybe they don't. But earlier it was suggested that maybe they did and were timing it for their benefit. I guess it can't really be both.

I think this is really going into the realm of analysis by pure conjecture of worst of all possible motives. ("Oh yeah, sure it was nice of you to help that random old lady cross the road, but what is it you really want to do? Get into her knickers or get into her will? Huh?")

Ummm... yeah, about that failure to solve all the problems of the Middle East thing. Guess what! Absolutely nobody has ever solved all the problems of the Middle East. That's way too high a bar to call Trump a failure on.

Look, I get it. We all hate Donald Trump. But this kind of petty sniping looks pretty silly. If Obama had got this deal signed, then the stuff being written here is exactly what I would expect from the Republicans and people like Rush Limbaugh.
As usual angrysoba, in your rush to show everyone how much you know about the region, you have completely missed the point of what people were posting.

NONE of the posters said, or even implied that the normalisation of relations between Arab and Israeli states was a bad thing or that is was somehow defective. NONE OF THEM EVEN COMMENTED ON IT AT ALL!!!

What they were commenting on was the fact that the Trump wankers were taking credit for something they had bugger all to do with.
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Old 13th September 2020, 04:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As usual angrysoba, in your rush to show everyone how much you know about the region, you have completely missed the point of what people were posting.
Uhhh...what? What a weird thing to say. I did nothing more than post a quote from Wikipedia of all places. That's hardly showing off about what I know about the region even if it is more than you did in terms of evidencing your own claims.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
NONE of the posters said, or even implied that the normalisation of relations between Arab and Israeli states was a bad thing or that is was somehow defective. NONE OF THEM EVEN COMMENTED ON IT AT ALL!!!
You don't need to YELL! I know what people were talking about. I'm doing everyone a favour by clearing out of the way any possible reasons why this might be a bad thing. We all agree it is a good thing, right? So what is there to complain about?

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What they were commenting on was the fact that the Trump wankers were taking credit for something they had bugger all to do with.
Yes, I get it! I even said that here:

Quote:
Look, I get it. We all hate Donald Trump. But this kind of petty sniping looks pretty silly. If Obama had got this deal signed, then the stuff being written here is exactly what I would expect from the Republicans and people like Rush Limbaugh.
But you are wrong to say that everyone was claiming the Trump wankers had nothing to do with it. Posters on this thread were saying different things, and they can't all be true. Here are some claims in this thread:

1) The Trump wankers did have something to do with it (elections and F-35s sales).
2) The Trump wankers had nothing to do with it!

Please note that 1) and 2) can't both be true. I already pointed this out! Please read carefully for comprehension.

Oh, and now you are retconning your own statement in which you merely sneered:

Quote:
A "peace deal" brokered by a Trump between countries that were not even at war.
Wait, what? "brokered by a Trump"? I thought you just said they had bugger all to do with it.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th September 2020, 04:31 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Wait, what? "brokered by a Trump"? I thought you just said they had bugger all to do with it.
Ever heard of irony? Or satire?


... or taking the piss?
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Old 13th September 2020, 04:42 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Ummm... yeah, about that failure to solve all the problems of the Middle East thing. Guess what! Absolutely nobody has ever solved all the problems of the Middle East. That's way too high a bar to call Trump a failure on.
Well, duh. And it's odds-on that this is not going to be a long-term solution either. Instead, it definitely looks to be yet another division of the region into Iran vs anti-Iran interests. Have we seen this before? Of course. The sands of influence and interests are shifting there, as usual.

Quote:
Look, I get it. We all hate Donald Trump. But this kind of petty sniping looks pretty silly. If Obama had got this deal signed, then the stuff being written here is exactly what I would expect from the Republicans and people like Rush Limbaugh.
Missed the point. It's not about Trump-hate at all. The very point of the situation is that Trump and Kushie actually had bugger-all to do with any of these developments but by god, they will take credit for it! The discussions happened while they weren't even looking, done by people they weren't listening to. They have been going on since...<checks references>...at least the Clinton administration. So a long time.

Are these changes welcome? Depends who you are. For Bahrain and the UAE, of course! They are more than pragmatic enough to play both ends against the middle. Why? So they can "be at peace with Trump's buddy, Israel" so they can purchase some of the newest US military hardware, like F35s. And why would they need that sort if power? I dunno...perhaps antipathy towards an increasingly militaristic Iran, which looms large just a short missile flight across the Persian Gulf to the north of both Bahrain and the UAE, has something to do with it...

The point is that neither Kushie nor Donny know or care one iota about the Middle East. It's all a homogeneous lump of brown Muslims living in deserts to them. But if it means a chance to get some unearned credit, then of course! They will take that.
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Old 13th September 2020, 04:48 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ever heard of irony? Or satire?


... or taking the piss?
Sure I have, and I have also heard the whole "Yeah, I was being really clever so no wonder you missed it" excuse before.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th September 2020, 05:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Missed the point. It's not about Trump-hate at all. The very point of the situation is that Trump and Kushie actually had bugger-all to do with any of these developments but by god, they will take credit for it! The discussions happened while they weren't even looking, done by people they weren't listening to. They have been going on since...<checks references>...at least the Clinton administration. So a long time.
I don't think that's actually true. I'm going to check my own references now (Wikipedia, but apparently based on five or six New York Times articles):

Quote:
The agreement represented a major policy reversal for Netanyahu, who had long pushed for increasing settlements in the occupied West Bank, with an objective of annexing the territory. Netanyahu faced political pressure to demonstrate flexibility, as three recent elections gave him only a plurality in a coalition government and he faced a criminal prosecution in 2021. In 2019, the Trump administration reversed decades of American policy by declaring that the West Bank settlements did not violate international law, a decision that threatened the two-state solution that had long been seen as the key to lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The Trump administration's Middle East policy, crafted by presidential senior advisor Jared Kushner and released in January 2020, approved Netanyahu's plan to annex existing settlements. After Yousef Al Otaiba, the UAE ambassador to the United States, wrote a June 2020 opinion piece warning that annexation would threaten better relations between Israel and the Arab world, Kushner saw an opportunity and stepped in to facilitate talks. After negotiators had reached agreement, Trump, Netanyahu and UAE Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed held a conference call immediately prior to a formal announcement.
Trump and Kushner are ********. And their flirtation with Netanyahu's plans to annex parts of the West Bank made them bigger ********, but it looks like your claim (and according to smartcooky, the claims of every other poster in this thread) that they had nothing to do with the talks and with the deal is incorrect.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Are these changes welcome? Depends who you are. For Bahrain and the UAE, of course! They are more than pragmatic enough to play both ends against the middle. Why? So they can "be at peace with Trump's buddy, Israel" so they can purchase some of the newest US military hardware, like F35s. And why would they need that sort if power? I dunno...perhaps antipathy towards an increasingly militaristic Iran, which looms large just a short missile flight across the Persian Gulf to the north of both Bahrain and the UAE, has something to do with it...
How about in your opinion? Do you think these changes are welcome?

I think they are.

I also think that Trump has done a massive amount of damage to Middle East relations, especially with the withdrawal from the Iran deal that Obama made. I think that the whole decision to do so was a stupid and spiteful move that was only done because Obama had made the deal. Some people complained that because Iran was a dictatorship with nuclear aspirations, there should be no deals made with that country. And then Trump and his supporters proved themselves total hypocrites when they supported his love-in with Kim Jong-un. Trump never fails to show how much of an ******* he is.

But why do the same thing here. It is pretty clear that no one really wants to say this is a good thing. When I point this out, it is then claimed that whether or not this is a good thing (and no one wants to say whether or not it is) then the only thing we can be sure about is that Trump had nothing to do with it.

Oh, unless it benefits him, in which case he is doing it, sure, but for all the wrong reasons.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Sure I have, and I have also heard the whole "Yeah, I was being really clever so no wonder you missed it" excuse before.
Yes, I was being clever

Yes, you missed it

I don't need an excuse for your lack of comprehension skills.
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:21 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yes, I was being clever.
This is like laughing at your own jokes and blaming your audience for not finding them funny.
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 13th September 2020, 06:42 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't think that's actually true. I'm going to check my own references now (Wikipedia, but apparently based on five or six New York Times articles):



Trump and Kushner are ********. And their flirtation with Netanyahu's plans to annex parts of the West Bank made them bigger ********, but it looks like your claim (and according to smartcooky, the claims of every other poster in this thread) that they had nothing to do with the talks and with the deal is incorrect.


Quote:
How about in your opinion? Do you think these changes are welcome?

I think they are.
I agree it is progress. But are they such massive changes? Two or three countries, like naughty kids, have been circling each other for decades about this issue. Finally someone agrees not to poke the other in the eye if they can help it. Because there's a lollipop in it for them if they can convince mom they have been good.

Quote:
I also think that Trump has done a massive amount of damage to Middle East relations, especially with the withdrawal from the Iran deal that Obama made. I think that the whole decision to do so was a stupid and spiteful move that was only done because Obama had made the deal. Some people complained that because Iran was a dictatorship with nuclear aspirations, there should be no deals made with that country. And then Trump and his supporters proved themselves total hypocrites when they supported his love-in with Kim Jong-un. Trump never fails to show how much of an ******* he is.
All of them, UAE, Bahrain and Israel, have been playing Trump and Kushner like fiddles for the massive dopes they are. As has China and North Korea. All it took was a well-written "love letter" from the DRPK. All it has taken for UAE and Bahrain is a non-binding "promise" to play nice with Israel and giving Trump the credit/blame.

Quote:
But why do the same thing here. It is pretty clear that no one really wants to say this is a good thing. When I point this out, it is then claimed that whether or not this is a good thing (and no one wants to say whether or not it is) then the only thing we can be sure about is that Trump had nothing to do with it.

Oh, unless it benefits him, in which case he is doing it, sure, but for all the wrong reasons.
You are incorrect with this. It is progress in a direction. Is that a good thing? For Bahrain and UAE, yes. For Israel, maybe. For Iran, no. Has it assured no more fighting in the ME? No. Has it brought peace to Syria? Not yet, probably not. Is Russia out of the picture? No. So is it an amazing "Middle East Peace Deal by Team Trump"? Nope. But they will try to sell it like that.

It could be equated to the German re-armament in the 1930's, where all was peaceful in Europe, and German jobs and pride were growing...until...
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:02 PM   #21
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I'd find it so amusing to live in a world where Kushner actually achieved peace in the middle east. There are so many levels where that would make me happy.
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:30 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
This is like laughing at your own jokes and blaming your audience for not finding them funny.
Yet you are the only one who didn't get it. What does that say about you?
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Old 13th September 2020, 08:43 PM   #23
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I'm wondering whether all this peacemaking in the Holy Land isn't going to upset Trump's Evangelical Base.
They want Armageddon, not this.
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Old 14th September 2020, 04:16 AM   #24
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For the doomsday squad, there's still plenty of war going round: the horror in Yemen for starters; I don't see that ending any time soon.
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
I agree it is progress. But are they such massive changes? Two or three countries, like naughty kids, have been circling each other for decades about this issue. Finally someone agrees not to poke the other in the eye if they can help it. Because there's a lollipop in it for them if they can convince mom they have been good.
To be fair, that is exactly what the Camp David Accords were all about. We'll pay you guys to be nice.


Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You are incorrect with this. It is progress in a direction. Is that a good thing? For Bahrain and UAE, yes. For Israel, maybe. For Iran, no. Has it assured no more fighting in the ME? No. Has it brought peace to Syria? Not yet, probably not. Is Russia out of the picture? No. So is it an amazing "Middle East Peace Deal by Team Trump"? Nope. But they will try to sell it like that.
Everything in the Middle East is baby steps. This is a good one regardless of what else it does.

Of course, there are other, bigger issues, and Donald Trump has been the worst possible person on all of these, from Iran, to Russia, to North Korea. The guy clearly has no strategy or interest in anything other than himself.

Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
It could be equated to the German re-armament in the 1930's, where all was peaceful in Europe, and German jobs and pride were growing...until...
Hmmm...I don't see who Germany is in this analogy.
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:14 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yet you are the only one who didn't get it. What does that say about you?
I don't see any evidence that they understood the bit about "brokered by a Trump" was satire.

The only sarcasm I saw was the idea that this was a "peace deal". But you are claiming that "brokered by a Trump" was satire, or irony or taking the piss.

I think it is fine to call it a peace deal, if it means recognition by two states formerly refusing to believe the other even exists, and which is likely to lead to bigger trade and diplomatic ties.

Also, according to the NY Times reporting it was indeed brokered by the Trump wankers, so that bit I took issue with doesn't rise to the level of satire, or irony or taking the piss. It would be like me pointing to a tree and saying it was a tree and then mocking someone for not realizing that I am being ironic, or satirical or taking the piss.
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Old 14th September 2020, 05:30 PM   #27
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OLOL. If Trump's team had guvrn stuff to ME governments without making rapprochement with Israel a condition of the arrangement, the usual suspects would be stinking up the forum with complaints about how they were too stupid to see the obvious opportunity.

But they did see the opportunity, they took it, and it paid off. So instead the stinky complaint is that Hillary Clinton would have convinced them to pledge eternal peace and solidarity with Israel out of the goodness of their hearts alone. The same way her predecessor brokered peace in the Ukraine, and ushered in a new era of cooperation on the Korean peninsula.
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Old 15th September 2020, 11:02 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
OLOL. If Trump's team had guvrn stuff to ME governments without making rapprochement with Israel a condition of the arrangement, the usual suspects would be stinking up the forum with complaints about how they were too stupid to see the obvious opportunity.
You are mistaking those "usual suspects" for people who actually give a flying **** about those missed opportunities.

Perhaps it would be a better idea to look at the whole idea of selling military hardware to ME countries at all. The US' past experience with doing that has not been a good one... Iraq for example,

IMO, selling arms to Saudi Arabia is a really, really bad idea. They are not trustworthy by any stretch.
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Old 19th September 2020, 10:37 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You are incorrect with this. It is progress in a direction. Is that a good thing? For Bahrain and UAE, yes. For Israel, maybe. For Iran, no.
For the Palestinians who have been living on the land for the last 2,000 years and more? Most definitely not.
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Old 19th September 2020, 10:39 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I'm wondering whether all this peacemaking in the Holy Land isn't going to upset Trump's Evangelical Base.
They want Armageddon, not this.
They need Israel to achieve it's living space in the East first. Up to the border with Saudi Arabia at least. Then the rest of the Middle East will fall on Israel and kill off the jews like they imagine.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 12:35 PM   #31
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Any peace deal that ignores the Palestinians is worthless. The arab countries involved are just united in their antipathy towards Iran. The Israeli government can promise anything about hte West Bank, they will just leave it to the settlers to keep spreading like a cancer. It's really a whole bunch of nothing.
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Old 22nd September 2020, 12:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You are mistaking those "usual suspects" for people who actually give a flying **** about those missed opportunities.
Wow. That is indeed a huge mistake on my part. If the people complaining now don't actually care about ME countries normalizing relations with Israel, that changes everything.
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