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Old Today, 08:24 AM   #601
varwoche
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I'm not into trying to read the minds of quacking water fowl. I accept what they quack. The inner-workings of their bird brains is irrelevant, except as a matter of idle curiosity.

If advocating democracy suited Trump's irrepressible narcissism, he'd be advocating democracy. (So long as he can still keep ******* out of his rental units.) His narcissism is so all consuming, he's incapable of not cheating. That's why, in a certain sense, the enablers are worse than Dear Leader.

That's no solace at all for our slide into an authoritarian state.
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Old Today, 08:29 AM   #602
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I'm not into trying to read the minds of quacking water fowl. I accept what they quack. The inner-workings of their bird brains is irrelevant, except as a matter of idle curiosity.
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
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Old Today, 09:17 AM   #603
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
The one place where he is probably informed by an actual fascist dictator (Hitler) is in his demagoguery. Based on a 1990 article and knowing that he is not "a reader" (so the fact that any book gets any mention at all in that 1990 article is remarkable), he has probably studied it and has been (probably intentionally) applying it in his own way in his political rallies.

This does not make him a fascist. What makes him a fascist is the whole looking, walking & quacking like a duck part. It doesn't matter if he does so incompetently. It doesn't matter that he's dumb as a rock (it's sad that this is even a defense of Trump). It doesn't matter if he even understands what he is doing (though he probably has at least some understanding). It doesn't matter if deep in his heart he believes himself to be a fascist.
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Last edited by cosmicaug; Today at 09:19 AM. Reason: Just thought that the hyperlink should be attached to the 1st mention instead of the 2nd
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Old Today, 09:24 AM   #604
rockysmith76
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This. It doesn't make one iota of difference if Trump honestly wants us to be failed dictatorial state or he's "LOL troll the Libz" ironically doing it and the distinction should literally never enter into actually discussions outside of the vaguest passings of mention.
...snip... he's an ego maniac, not a fascist, which has become the the goto lib term for all they disagree with without any nuance.

Edited by jsfisher:  Post redacted to stay within the bounds of Rule 11.

Last edited by jsfisher; Today at 10:56 AM.
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Old Today, 09:41 AM   #605
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Nope. Trump is clearly saying that he'll win IF the mail-in ballots are tossed. His radical goal is to alter the very system of vote provision, restricting it to in-person only.

He knows all about the Red Illusion, where the earlier results from the booths tend to favor the GOP, to be neutralized later when the mailed ballots are then counted.
It's Schrodinger's Trump. He remains an uncollapsed probability wave function until someone actually listens to him. At that point, based on political orientation, it either becomes a matter of actually attempting to apply context & the meaning of the actual words that he is actually using or it becomes "Let us bathe in the light of Dear Leader!".

Who can even know what is the proper approach to divining him?
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Old Today, 09:51 AM   #606
Giordano
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is Trump saying he'll win the 2020 election. Which is really no different than Obama saying that Trump would lose the 2016 election.
I don’t think you really believe this. But here are some additional Trump quotes that make this attempt at an analogy absolutely false:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/polit...ice/index.html
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Old Today, 09:53 AM   #607
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Besides it's not like we have to go all that far back to find an example of a contested election going to the Supreme Court, who then finds for the Republican side, and the Democrat candidate accepting the decision and conceding or anything.
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Old Today, 10:09 AM   #608
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
It may still be at the transitional stage, but there's no better word for it.
Quote:
Is MAGA a movement based on ultra-nationalism, race-based and religion-based divisions, and an obsession with the past? If it is, then, we need to stop avoiding what that is called...
Renegade Cut (Aug. 25, 2020): MAGA and Fascism
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Is that video maker a reader of this forum*?
Quote:
Whenever something occurs that can be described as fascist, the discourse goes thusly: If fascist tactics are successful, MAGA and its defenders claim that such tactics cannot possibly be fascistic if they can co-exist within liberal democracy. If fascist tactics are unsuccessful, MAGA claims that liberal democracy has safeguarded us against fascist tactics and therefore said tactics are not worth worrying about because it's “only fascism if it's successful” – defining fascism by the aforementioned threshold that historically does not exist.

The most notable example of this circular argument is President Trump attempting to cancel the election. He has explicitly stated that the election must not take place this year. Undermining elections and consolidating power are both part of the fascist playbook. Defenders of Trump say that since he is probably unable to do this due to the constitution, any suggestion that this is “fascist” is alarmist. Conversely, if Trump does successfully weaponize the Department of Justice and other departments to cancel the election, those same people will say that he has done so legitimately using the powers of his office and is therefore not fascist.

It's a double-speak that allows any action to be defended as “normal” no matter how egregious and no matter its level of success. The existence of structural safeguards to prevent some of the more egregious acts of authoritarianism and common fascist tactics does not change the fact that such tactics have been attempted.




Near the end of the video:
Quote:
If we have ever wondered how we would have acted when threatened with an early 20th century fascist movement, the answer is however we are acting right now. Apologists will always find some other outline, some loophole for why this must not be publicly declared a fascist movement, always purposefully missing the definition of fascist ideology that it need not be identical to the common perception of fascism in the popular consciousness or meet every commonality, only that it be recognizably fascist and contain the bones of the ideology.

People are so afraid to call this what it is for fear of being ostracized as an “alarmist” but those days need to be over. Every prediction for what a Trump presidency backed by the MAGA movement would look like either came true or ended up being worse than predicted.

The “alarmists” were right. People are worried that calling this what it is won't be “helpful” in the discourse, but downplaying what has been happening has not been “helpful” so far. Any argument that amounts to “Well, this specific thing hasn't happened yet.” is irrelevant. Sell that to someone who has not been paying attention.

* Not really a serious question. I understand that this is a generic response by supporters and not anything peculiar to anyone who might be posting on this thread.
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Old Today, 10:12 AM   #609
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Originally Posted by cosmicaug View Post
Are we in the double digits yet for the number of recorded times when he has said something to this effect?

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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I don’t think you really believe this. But here are some additional Trump quotes that make this attempt at an analogy absolutely false:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/polit...ice/index.html
To answer my own question, they are showing only 9 times so I guess it must not be fascism yet.
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Old Today, 11:43 AM   #610
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
This is Trump saying he'll win the 2020 election. Which is really no different than Obama saying that Trump would lose the 2016 election.
It might be the same if Obama had said Trump would lose and he'd throw out votes for Trump until Clinton won.

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that mail-in votes for Biden are inherently fraudulent.
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Old Today, 11:47 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
It might be the same if Obama had said Trump would lose and he'd throw out votes for Trump until Clinton won.

Because that's what he's saying. He's saying that mail-in votes for Biden are inherently fraudulent.
It's even more basic than that.

He's saying he will win in November and telling his followers "Start thinking of ways I really won if I wind up not losing."

He's not just saying mail in votes for Biden are fraudulent, he's not just saying that states where here is going to lose are all "rigged," he's not just saying this, not just saying that.

He's saying that anyway in which he could lose is invalid.
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Old Today, 11:49 AM   #612
The Great Zaganza
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I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
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Old Today, 11:52 AM   #613
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
They won't talk to us until we say something they can pedantically nitpick about.

Seriously that's the game.

Trump is dunking someone's head in a vat of sparkling wine.

Us: "Hey that's not good!"

Trumpers: *Silence*

Us: "Seriously the guy is drowning!"

Trumpers: *Silence*

Us: "Great. The guy's dead. The President is going drowned that guy in a bucket of champagne!"

Trumpers *Pouring out of the woodworks* "LOL triggered dramatic libs u r da stoopid that's obviously sparkling wine not champagne I totally don't support Trump but here's a list of reasons why he's gonna win and make the librusl cry...."
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Old Today, 12:14 PM   #614
cosmicaug
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I would like to know what our resident Trump Whisperers would consider cheating by Trump and the GOP in November.
<channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>If he's successful it's not cheating/illegal.</channeling_inner_childtrump_whisperer>
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Old Today, 01:22 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I expect better trolling from you. 2/10.
Generous!
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