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Tags transgender incidents , transgender issues , transgender rights

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Old Today, 02:44 PM   #1081
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
In the US, there is rarely a separate "disabled" room, either in bathrooms or changing rooms. Wheelchair usable facilities are provided in the regular restrooms and changing rooms.

In recent construction, there is frequently a "family" or "unisex" room. This was extremely uncommon in my youth, but is fairly standard in large buildings today. i.e. a shopping mall or sports venue is almost certain to have one, but a McDonalds might not.
Many years ago, I attended a baseball game. At some point I went to the men's room, where there was a short line. When I got to the front of the line, I noticed the wheelchair-accessible stall was open, so I stepped in and did my business.

When I stepped out again, there was a man* in a wheelchair waiting, and he was quite upset with me. He felt very strongly that I should have waited for one of the non-ADA stalls, so that "his" stall would be immediately available to him when he arrived.

It was a very awkward scene.

Anyway, as I see it, a disabled person is entitled to skip the wait/line/queue and go straight to the ADA stall. But they are not entitled to have it kept abled-free at all times in case they need it.
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Old Today, 03:33 PM   #1082
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And I've also said previously that another part of the social contract would be that trans women would take all reasonable steps not to make other women/girls feel uncomfortable (eg by looking in the direction of those women/girls as they were getting naked).


The solution is not to ban trans women from the women's changing rooms (and it's not a lawful way to proceed anyhow). The solution is to ensure that there is a way of allowing trans women to use the women's changing rooms in a way which - as far as is reasonably possible - preseves the dignity and safety of all parties.
Okay. Assuming there is widespread adoption of this as the social contract - unaltered transwomen keep themselves covered, and take pains to not make anyone uncomfortable...

How do you determine whether a given person is a transwoman, who as a transwoman, has been granted full access to female-only spaces?
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Old Today, 03:38 PM   #1083
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Anyway, as I see it, a disabled person is entitled to skip the wait/line/queue and go straight to the ADA stall. But they are not entitled to have it kept abled-free at all times in case they need it.
That's always been my assumption with respect to disabled stalls. In the women's room, there's often long lines as it is - at a minimum, we end up with fewer spots, because we can't use standing facilities, and it generally takes us longer to pee than it does men, compliments of both biology and clothing.

Generally, you look around and make sure there's nobody who seems to be disabled in line, then you go ahead and use it.

Not the same for disabled parking spots though, as shopping generally takes a lot longer than using the restroom.
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Old Today, 04:48 PM   #1084
LondonJohn
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I can say with total confidence that I would NEVER use a disabled toilet/restroom purely on account of there being a long queue for the men's toilet/restroom (unless, perhaps, I had a genuine emergency where I needed to use bathroom facilities right away).

There's a reason why so many disabled toilets/restrooms - in the UK at least - are either locked (but of course are unlocked on request by disabled patrons) or use something called (IIRC) a RADAR key, which is a universal key that opens all RADAR doors (and which disabled people can acquire and keep on them for use unlocking those toilet doors).

But for those disabled toilets which are accessible: if people start to think they're entitled to use disabled toilets purely on account of there being a queue for the men's (or women's) toilets, then where does that entitlement logically end? Well, it logically ends with the disabled toilets effectively becoming a free-for-all anyone-can-use-it facility - but with the rider that an actual disabled person can jump the line for the disabled toilets.

I'm not at all surprised that the disabled man glared at theprestige as he (theprestige) exited the disabled toilet. I would have glared too, had I been waiting in line to use the men's toilet. I consider it to be wrong on a fair few levels. As, presumably, did the authorities who started limiting access to disabled toilets - presumably on account of the increasing number of entitled dicks who thought the disabled toilet was a convenient (and usually cleaner...) shortcut when the toilets they should actually have been using were busy.
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Old Today, 04:57 PM   #1085
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Originally Posted by MisAndreG View Post
what do you have in common with women that all humans donít that doesnít revolve to a sex stereotype?
Where on earth did you get the idea that this is all about where we fall on a scale from Barbie to G.I. Joe?

ECyqBj2XoAEqT8F.jpeg
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Old Today, 05:02 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I can say with total confidence that I would NEVER use a disabled toilet/restroom purely on account of there being a long queue for the men's toilet/restroom (unless, perhaps, I had a genuine emergency where I needed to use bathroom facilities right away).

There's a reason why so many disabled toilets/restrooms - in the UK at least - are either locked (but of course are unlocked on request by disabled patrons) or use something called (IIRC) a RADAR key, which is a universal key that opens all RADAR doors (and which disabled people can acquire and keep on them for use unlocking those toilet doors).

But for those disabled toilets which are accessible: if people start to think they're entitled to use disabled toilets purely on account of there being a queue for the men's (or women's) toilets, then where does that entitlement logically end? Well, it logically ends with the disabled toilets effectively becoming a free-for-all anyone-can-use-it facility - but with the rider that an actual disabled person can jump the line for the disabled toilets.

I'm not at all surprised that the disabled man glared at theprestige as he (theprestige) exited the disabled toilet. I would have glared too, had I been waiting in line to use the men's toilet. I consider it to be wrong on a fair few levels. As, presumably, did the authorities who started limiting access to disabled toilets - presumably on account of the increasing number of entitled dicks who thought the disabled toilet was a convenient (and usually cleaner...) shortcut when the toilets they should actually have been using were busy.
In the US, the stalls are not labelled as "disabled only". At least, I've never seen one like that. theprestige was not breaking any rules, regulations, or customs.
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Old Today, 05:09 PM   #1087
theprestige
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I can say with total confidence that I would NEVER use a disabled toilet/restroom purely on account of there being a long queue for the men's toilet/restroom (unless, perhaps, I had a genuine emergency where I needed to use bathroom facilities right away).
Is that a thing that happens in the UK? There's a long line for the loo, and one of the three stalls is large enough to accommodate a wheelchair, but everybody just queues up for the other two stalls and nobody uses the third?
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Old Today, 05:14 PM   #1088
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I thought Boudicca90 expressed that opinion* about your views, not "the views of females". Correct me if I'm wrong in that though - because I'm not saying for sure that I'm right.


ETA: * I don't recall her ever referring to your views (let alone those of "all females") as "not important" though - again, I might be wrong in that, so please let me know if that's the case.
Yep, that is correct. Emily seems to think she speaks for all or most women, or at least all cisgender women, and so she mistakenly attributed my analysis of her to all or most women.

I was talking about her and others with her views. When the fact is her views are still a minority and are only becoming more noticed because they are getting louder and have new celebrity endorsements like JK Rowling.

We are not a threat, but if someone keeps treating us like we are, why should I care if we do threaten them? I get to the point where I realize I'm not getting through to anybody so what is the point of trying to be empathic to someone who shows no empathy for us. Hell, even the way she talks about and treats her niece shows even having trans family won't soften her views any.
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Old Today, 05:37 PM   #1089
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
When the fact is her views are still a minority and are only becoming more noticed because they are getting louder and have new celebrity endorsements like JK Rowling.
Which of her views, specifically? What survey data should we be looking at?
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Old Today, 05:45 PM   #1090
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Is that a thing that happens in the UK? There's a long line for the loo, and one of the three stalls is large enough to accommodate a wheelchair, but everybody just queues up for the other two stalls and nobody uses the third?
From other descriptions posted here, I get the impression that the customary practice in the UK is to have a completely separate room for the handicapped to use.
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Old Today, 05:50 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by Boudicca90 View Post
I was talking about her and others with her views. When the fact is her views are still a minority....
You might want to peek your head outside the bubble.

ETA: And I don't know exactly which views are a held by what percentage of people. Survey data on the subject are notoriously manipulated either in the way the questions are asked, or the way the results are tabulated. A lot of people still don't know that "transgender" is not the same thing as the previously used term "transsexual", and they assume it has to do with people who have had operations. My impression of EC's views are that she is left of center on the issue. My own position is probably about center. (I think I'm somewhat to the right of EC on the subject.)

And of course age has a lot to do with it. It may very well be that young people have pulled the needle far to the left. The young generation has grown up with a lot more awareness of transgender issues than any generation before it, but I don't know if they overwhelmingly support trans access to locker rooms, or do so with a minority. I really don't know.

I know that the stories that get the most news coverage occur when a high school transgirl wants to use the girls' locker room, and there are an awful lot of girls trying to get the school board to say "no". It seems that if the support was overwhelming, there wouldn't be the protests.
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Old Today, 07:48 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Well based on my opinion she is. Why should I listen to her own opinion on something about how she feels or thinks? Why should that matter?

I hope you see the parallels being drawn.

The problem is that a lot of people are relying on their view of what is 'actually true' but failing to acknowledge that other people see things differently.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying you should listen to her opinion about whether or not she's anti-trans. I'm saying being "anti-trans" is a summation of her views on the subject. And it's an incorrect summation. Her views on the subject are not anti-trans, and I'm not basing that on the fact that she says she's not anti trans, I'm basing it on the views on the subject that she has expressed in this thread.
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Old Today, 08:30 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying you should listen to her opinion about whether or not she's anti-trans. I'm saying being "anti-trans" is a summation of her views on the subject. And it's an incorrect summation. Her views on the subject are not anti-trans, and I'm not basing that on the fact that she says she's not anti trans, I'm basing it on the views on the subject that she has expressed in this thread.
Views she has expressed many times.

But this thread shows that to some, even if you diverge from the trans activist line by just a millimetre you are automatically anti-trans, a TERF and a bigot.

I learnt as a young child that when you start name calling you have lost the argument. I'm seeing a lot of name calling.
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Old Today, 10:15 PM   #1094
Boudicca90
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Which of her views, specifically? What survey data should we be looking at?
Here is a good study showing how support of us and our rights have been increasing over time, especially recently: https://www.prri.org/research/americ...gender-rights/

Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
You might want to peek your head outside the bubble.

ETA: And I don't know exactly which views are a held by what percentage of people. Survey data on the subject are notoriously manipulated either in the way the questions are asked, or the way the results are tabulated. A lot of people still don't know that "transgender" is not the same thing as the previously used term "transsexual", and they assume it has to do with people who have had operations. My impression of EC's views are that she is left of center on the issue. My own position is probably about center. (I think I'm somewhat to the right of EC on the subject.)

And of course age has a lot to do with it. It may very well be that young people have pulled the needle far to the left. The young generation has grown up with a lot more awareness of transgender issues than any generation before it, but I don't know if they overwhelmingly support trans access to locker rooms, or do so with a minority. I really don't know.

I know that the stories that get the most news coverage occur when a high school transgirl wants to use the girls' locker room, and there are an awful lot of girls trying to get the school board to say "no". It seems that if the support was overwhelming, there wouldn't be the protests.
I think for the most part is has been Millenials and Gen Z who have been leading the way when it comes to LGBTQ+ acceptance in general, and not just trans issues. Anecdotal I know, but I am 35 and most people I know my age or younger are entirely supportive of us. That's why JK Rowling's transphobia is so devastating to us, because we were the generations who grew up with Harry Potter and the themes found in the books appealed to LGBTQ+ people in particular, so her books have a large gay and trans following that she said screw you to. We are now struggling with trying to divorce her from her creation, or just leave the Wizarding World fandom altogether.

So I do think there is a generational component there since we are less beholden to how things were done in the past. We know now that things like gender and sexuality are far more complex than we assumed in the past and appeals to tradition don't get far among us because of that.

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