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Old 3rd September 2017, 10:45 AM   #81
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Rather strange contention for you, geography now has rights?
I also believe private individuals have a right to nuclear weapons. It is just an extension of the to freely say Kim can have the weapons and he is charge there.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 10:49 AM   #82
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Quote:
South Korean officials said the latest test took place in Kilju County
Oddly appropriate, I'd say!

(meaning, in the sense of "killed you", nothing else)
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Old 3rd September 2017, 11:27 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Kicked out for this? Countries have a sovereign right to develop weapons.
Of course not just for this in isolation. They should be kicked out for continually and excessively violating the foundational principles of the UN charter and thumbing their noses at important rules and resolutions.

These missiles and nuclear tests are not announced to their sovereign neighbors and are falling into another countries' sovereign territorial waters. Technically, they should not be happening at all since there is a long-standing ban.

They should not have a right to do that without expecting consequences. So far though, the consequences don't seem to have any 'teeth' to get them to adhere to even the most basic manners at the UN table.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 3rd September 2017 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 11:30 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Of course not just for this in isolation. They should be kicked out for continually and excessively violating the foundational principles of the UN charter and thumbing their noses at important rules and resolutions.

These missiles and nuclear tests are not announced to their sovereign neighbors and are falling into another countries' sovereign territorial waters. Technically, they should not be happening at all since there is a long-standing ban.

They should not have a right to do that without expecting consequences. So far though, the consequences don't seem to have any 'teeth' to get them to adhere to even the most basic manners at the UN table.

The big fear for the US is the proximity to the US military base in Guam.

Anyone within range of North Korea must be feeling nervous.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 11:35 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Of course not just for this in isolation. They should be kicked out for continually and excessively violating the foundational principles of the UN charter and thumbing their noses at important rules and resolutions.

These missiles and nuclear tests are not announced to their sovereign neighbors and are falling into another countries' sovereign territorial waters. Technically, they should not be happening at all since there is a long-standing ban.

They should not have a right to do that without expecting consequences. So far though, the consequences don't seem to have any 'teeth' to get them to adhere to even the most basic manners at the UN table.
I'm sure there are some parts they are violating. But they are not violating the big non test ban treaty that covers this.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 12:20 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm sure there are some parts they are violating. But they are not violating the big non test ban treaty that covers this.
They would be violating the "big" treaty if they had not pulled out of it. It doesnt make sense to say they aren't in violation to a treaty they no longer wish to follow. (and they didnt follow it even when they were party to it)

But they are a part of the U.N. which has banned them with repeated resolutions. The main one being:

October 14, 2006:
The UN Security Council adopts Resolution 1718. The measure demands that North Korea refrain from further nuclear tests and calls on Pyongyang to return to the six-party talks and abandon its nuclear weapons. It also imposes additional sanctions on commerce with Pyongyang, widening the range of prohibited transactions beyond those banned under Resolution 1695.

Last edited by Sherkeu; 3rd September 2017 at 12:21 PM.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 12:24 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
They would be violating the "big" treaty if they had not pulled out of it. It doesnt make sense to say they aren't in violation to a treaty they no longer wish to follow. (and they didnt follow it even when they were party to it)

But they are a part of the U.N. which has banned them with repeated resolutions. The main one being:

October 14, 2006:
The UN Security Council adopts Resolution 1718. The measure demands that North Korea refrain from further nuclear tests and calls on Pyongyang to return to the six-party talks and abandon its nuclear weapons. It also imposes additional sanctions on commerce with Pyongyang, widening the range of prohibited transactions beyond those banned under Resolution 1695.
Doesn't it make perfect sense to say they are not violating a treaty if they pull out of it?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 12:52 PM   #88
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News flash for Sherkeu: The UN isn't all that good at backing up its strongly worded memos unless certain parties either abstain or walk out.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 12:55 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Doesn't it make perfect sense to say they are not violating a treaty if they pull out of it?
They do not have a seat at that table any longer. They do have one at the UN which has banned their nuclear testing.

Should they be able to ignore this UN ban without consequence?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:01 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
They do not have a seat at that table any longer. They do have one at the UN which has banned their nuclear testing.

Should they be able to ignore this UN ban without consequence?
I have no position on what should happen as a consequence of the UN agreement. My interest stops at the test ban treaty.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:19 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I have no position on what should happen as a consequence of the UN agreement. My interest stops at the test ban treaty.
You implied the UN should not kick them out for the nuclear test. ("kicked out for this?"). Now it seems you have switched having no opinion on what the UN does with North Korea in regards to their nuclear testing.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:22 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
You implied the UN should not kick them out for the nuclear test. ("kicked out for this?"). Now it seems you have switched having no opinion on what the UN does with North Korea in regards to their nuclear testing.
Correct. Once it got to the test ban treaty it became several times more interesting to eclipse my interest in what the UN should do.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:30 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
News flash for Sherkeu: The UN isn't all that good at backing up its strongly worded memos unless certain parties either abstain or walk out.
Agree. Looking forward though, it will get more difficult for those countries to maintain status quo. There is a tipping point somewhere where allowing a relatively tiny country to hold the world hostage with intercontinental nuclear weapons is not worth shorter and shorter terms of stability.

From my limited perspective, they should all be totally fed up by now but behind the scenes it may be totally different.
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:46 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It doesn't inspire confidence that N Korea's missile broke in three on landing.

Is this normal?
Perfectly normal to break, except I'd expect far more fragments when a missile lands.

Or did you mix up 'landing' with 'launch' ?
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Old 3rd September 2017, 01:52 PM   #95
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If people quit doing business with them, would they launch the weapon? How would that get what they want?
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:09 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Patriots during the Gulf war had only marginal anti-ballistic capability, added as almost an afterthought, and successfuly intercepted about half of the missiles. This is a better success rate than North Korean ballistic missiles currently can manage.
The General Accounting Office disagrees. They put the successful intercept rate at ~9%. The Israelis put it at 3%.
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:11 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Somebody needs to talk about peace in our time.
Baldwin died seventy years ago.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:12 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The big fear for the US is the proximity to the US military base in Guam.

Anyone within range of North Korea must be feeling nervous.
US coastal cities make better targets.
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Old 4th September 2017, 09:35 AM   #99
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The US has become totally insane ..... at the UN ...

US calls for UN to impose 'strongest possible' measures on North Korea


And she (US UN rep Nikki Haley) rejected as “insulting” a Chinese proposal for a freeze on North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs in exchange for a suspension of US-South Korean annual military drills.

“When a rogue regime has a nuclear weapon and an ICBM [intercontinental ballistic missile] pointed at you, you do not take steps to lower your guard. No one would do that. We certainly won’t,” she declared.

All this while the US is routinely flying nuclear-capable bombers on NK's borders ...

US flies bombers over South Korea in show of force

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Old 4th September 2017, 10:55 AM   #100
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Is this the product of promoting gender-neutral STEM in a country that isn't as biased as the US?
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Old 4th September 2017, 03:57 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I also believe private individuals have a right to nuclear weapons. It is just an extension of the to freely say Kim can have the weapons and he is charge there.
You didn't mention people you mentioned chunks of geography have rights.
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Old 4th September 2017, 11:55 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The US has become totally insane ..... at the UN ...

US calls for UN to impose 'strongest possible' measures on North Korea


And she (US UN rep Nikki Haley) rejected as “insulting” a Chinese proposal for a freeze on North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs in exchange for a suspension of US-South Korean annual military drills.

“When a rogue regime has a nuclear weapon and an ICBM [intercontinental ballistic missile] pointed at you, you do not take steps to lower your guard. No one would do that. We certainly won’t,” she declared.

All this while the US is routinely flying nuclear-capable bombers on NK's borders ...

US flies bombers over South Korea in show of force
Well, that's one view of the situation. The other is that pretty much every diplomatic approach was already tried and this more agressive approach might work. It's also true that Chinese proposal is downright insulting, North Korea violated evey arms control treaty it ever signed and has been trying to stop the drills for decades now. It became a prestige project for them, US can't back down from those without recieving massive compensation in return. North Korea promising to adhere to treaties it repeatedly violated si not adequate.

US response should be worded differently, I agree with that, but it wasn't inappropriate. I actualyl think it wasn't harsh enough, promise the Chinese that if they don't put a leash on the North Korean regime, they'll have to deal with 20 million North Korean refugees before Christmas, regardless of what they do to stop it. The only problem is you have to act on the promise if they fail, but is China going to risk an all-out nuclear exchange it can maybe hope to draw, but never win, over North Korea? I doubt that.

Acting in an irrational and broderline insane manner worked for Kennedy against Kruschev well enough. Trump is quite similar to JFK in that respcet.

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Old 5th September 2017, 04:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Well, that's one view of the situation. The other is that pretty much every diplomatic approach was already tried and this more agressive approach might work. It's also true that Chinese proposal is downright insulting, North Korea violated evey arms control treaty it ever signed and has been trying to stop the drills for decades now. It became a prestige project for them, US can't back down from those without recieving massive compensation in return. North Korea promising to adhere to treaties it repeatedly violated si not adequate.

US response should be worded differently, I agree with that, but it wasn't inappropriate. I actualyl think it wasn't harsh enough, promise the Chinese that if they don't put a leash on the North Korean regime, they'll have to deal with 20 million North Korean refugees before Christmas, regardless of what they do to stop it. The only problem is you have to act on the promise if they fail, but is China going to risk an all-out nuclear exchange it can maybe hope to draw, but never win, over North Korea? I doubt that.

Acting in an irrational and broderline insane manner worked for Kennedy against Kruschev well enough. Trump is quite similar to JFK in that respcet.

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It's a far cry from the days of Ford launching Operational Paul Bunyan in '76.

Two eight-man teams of engineers were escorted by 60 soldiers in two platoons. One platoon secured the southern approaches to the target while the other secured the northern approaches. In addition, the engineers were accompanied by a company of South Korean Special Forces. Several of the Special Forces wore claymore mines strapped to their chest.

Artillery support was made available should it be required. A US infantry company was held in readiness in reserve in 20 helicopters ready for instant support, and seven Cobra attack helicopters circled to provide additional firepower. B52 bombers, described as “nuclear-ready” were overhead, escorted by F4, F5, F86 fighters. In addition, the F111 bombers of the 366th Tactical Fighter Wing were deployed. The aircraft carrier USS Midway was moved into position to provide further support.

Further back, the 71st Air Defence regiment with Hawk missiles, along with armour, were backing up the operation, and 12,000 additional troops, including 1800 US Marines from Okinawa, were moved to Korea.

The target, a poplar tree blocking the line-of-sight from an OP, was successfully destroyed
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Old 5th September 2017, 06:41 AM   #104
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Photos from a week in the DPRK
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Old 5th September 2017, 06:45 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You didn't mention people you mentioned chunks of geography have rights.
It is a shorthand that is easy to fall into. I'm glad you pointed it out.Thank you.
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Old 5th September 2017, 06:48 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I see a bunch of people denied the basic freedoms that are near universally recognized. I would rather live free in a hovel than like those children.
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Old 5th September 2017, 06:50 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
It's a far cry from the days of Ford launching Operational Paul Bunyan in '76...
And nobody worried about NK artillery firing on Seoul‽
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:03 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

The target, a poplar tree blocking the line-of-sight from an OP, was successfully destroyed
I think two soldiers were actually killed in that Operation. They initially went out to chop down a branch and two soldiers were hacked to death with an axe which is on display for tourists on the North Korean side of the border.
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:04 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I see a bunch of people denied the basic freedoms that are near universally recognized. I would rather live free in a hovel than like those children.

That's not what you see. That's what's in your head.
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Old 5th September 2017, 07:21 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
That's not what you see. That's what's in your head.
Without my brain in my head processing images, I would see nothing.


I see slaves.
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Old 5th September 2017, 11:36 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I think two soldiers were actually killed in that Operation. They initially went out to chop down a branch and two soldiers were hacked to death with an axe which is on display for tourists on the North Korean side of the border.
Operation Paul Bunyan was the US / ROK response to the murder by NK soldiers of US Army officers Captain Arthur Bonifas and Lt. Mark Barrett.
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Old 6th September 2017, 02:19 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
"Western media does not speak of North Korea’s people, nor of the amazing infrastructure, free housing and medical care, impressive agriculture and green energy"

Bwahahahahahahaha!

I can't decide which is my favorite, their "impressive agriculture" or their "green energy".
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Old 6th September 2017, 02:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Western media does not speak of North Korea’s people, nor of the amazing infrastructure, free housing and medical care, impressive agriculture and green energy"

Bwahahahahahahaha!

I can't decide which is my favorite, their "impressive agriculture" or their "green energy".
Personally, I'm a big fan of their underground DJ dance club scene.
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Old 6th September 2017, 02:58 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
"Western media does not speak of North Korea’s people, nor of the amazing infrastructure, free housing and medical care, impressive agriculture and green energy"

Bwahahahahahahaha!

I can't decide which is my favorite, their "impressive agriculture" or their "green energy".

Here's more reporting from the same group visiting the country, for your amusement:

What We Saw in North Korea Goes against Everything Western Media Wants Us to Believe
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Old 6th September 2017, 04:27 PM   #115
Reactor drone
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
The US has become totally insane ..... at the UN ...

US calls for UN to impose 'strongest possible' measures on North Korea


And she (US UN rep Nikki Haley) rejected as “insulting” a Chinese proposal for a freeze on North Korea’s nuclear and missile programs in exchange for a suspension of US-South Korean annual military drills.

“When a rogue regime has a nuclear weapon and an ICBM [intercontinental ballistic missile] pointed at you, you do not take steps to lower your guard. No one would do that. We certainly won’t,” she declared.

All this while the US is routinely flying nuclear-capable bombers on NK's borders ...

US flies bombers over South Korea in show of force

https://i.imgur.com/AkzewNZ.jpg
Actually, the B-1b is no longer nuclear capable. All of the nuclear arming and fusing hardware was removed in 1995.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:23 PM   #116
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Operation Paul Bunyan was the US / ROK response to the murder by NK soldiers of US Army officers Captain Arthur Bonifas and Lt. Mark Barrett.
Okay, but the killings explain the use of what seemed like an over-the-top military presence used in the cutting down of a tree. It was a major diplomatic incident.

I seem to recall that North Korea produced stamps commemorating the brave murder of the two soldierss.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:54 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Saggy View Post
All this while the US is routinely flying nuclear-capable bombers on NK's borders ...

https://i.imgur.com/AkzewNZ.jpg
Originally Posted by Reactor drone View Post
Actually, the B-1b is no longer nuclear capable. All of the nuclear arming and fusing hardware was removed in 1995.
Those F-16s could carry B83s or B61s.
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Old 6th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Here's more reporting from the same group visiting the country, for your amusement:

What We Saw in North Korea Goes against Everything Western Media Wants Us to Believe
Oh Jesus! Some people will believe anything.

Quote:
Rarely do we listen to the North Korean side. Yet it should be no surprise that they have a distinct perspective on the successive Japanese and American attacks, invasions and occupations that have defined their past century. Even when UN commissioned 'human rights' reports are prepared, it is not thought necessary to get the North Korean view, or even to visit the country.
Actually, many people spend a great deal of time listening to what North Korea says. You could try B.R Myers, for example, who reads the North Korean domestic propaganda or others who are in no doubt that what North Korea wants is to take over South Korea. People, such as Barbara Demick, also spend a lot of time talking to North Korean people to find out what it is like to live in a repressive regime which mismanages its economy in such a way that most people outside the capital are hungry and need to travel to China just to get enough to eat. And many refugees, such as Kang Chol-Hwan, have written books about what it is like to either live in the gulags there or to fall out of favour with the ruling class and have everything taken from them. Maybe Eva Bartlett Tim Anderson could write a People's History of North Korea, rather than simply pedaling the government script given to gullible Westerners on Korean Friendship Association Tours (I don't know if that's who she went with, but her his reporting has the feel of something Alejandro Cao de Benos might say).

Quote:
Popular western history blames North Korea for starting the Korean war (1950-53). By this story the US is said to have intervened (killing more than 4 million, according to the DPRK) to 'protect' South Korea from 'communist aggression'.

However the North Koreans themselves, and many socialist historians, point to US military planning for complete annexation of the peninsula, as spelt out by the 1949-50 head of US occupation forces, General Roberts.
Prime example of DPRK line, and supported by some "socialist historians" - presumably someone like Bruce Cumings. Of course, since this narrative has been constructed, some of the Soviet archives have been opened showing Kim Il-sung begging Stalin to greenlight his invasion of South Korea. Besides, if the US wanted to start a war with North Korea in the late forties and early fifties then it would have made no sense for President Truman's mass demobilization of the military and leaving South Korea and Japan under the supervision of a bunch of Twinkie-eating teenagers, for that was pretty much what the US Army in those countries consisted of at the time.

Quote:
With two colleagues I visited the DPRK in late August. It is a beautiful, lush country with warm, friendly people. I was struck by the confidence and self-assurance of the many well educated North Koreans we met, in particular the women. That self-confidence seems to reflect the state slogan 'we envy nothing in this world', linked to an official _Juche _philosophy which stresses human creativity and self-reliance.
Fascist countries do tend to be self-confident, it is true, and North Korea is no exception. They also tend to simultaneously believe in their own superiority and claim perpetual victim status. North Korea is no exception. Oh, and Juche is not a coherent philosophy, and certainly makes no sense if it is supposed to claim self-sufficiency and whine about isolation and sanctions at the same time. But that's fascism for you.

Quote:
Between visits to schools, hospitals and farms we visited meticulously documented history museums.
"meticulously documented history museums" which leave out the fact that Korea was liberated by the Soviet Union, while Japan was being defeated by the United States, and North Korea was saved by China in the Korean War. The museums claim that Kim Il-sung and his buddies pulled this off with a mere token assistance from allies.

Quote:
The capital's museums display evidence of Washington's use of chemical and biological weapons against the Korean people, and of 8,000 US breaches of the 1953 armistice, notably the captured US spy ship USS Pueblo.
What chemical and biological weapons are we talking about here?

Also, do you think that Eva Bartlett Tim Anderson would usually condone the time of beatings and other tortures that the crewmen of the USS Pueblo suffered if they weren't American or if Americans perpetrated these beatings? I think not, but in this case I doubt she's particularly worried.

Quote:
Carrying out 'vox pop' interviews with professionals, students, workers and farmers we often met statements such as that of rural co-op worker Ms Song Myong Oh: 'of course we do not want war, but we are not begging for peace'. Most seem proud that their country is standing up to an imperial power that has occupied their country for a lifetime, while invading dozens of others.
"Vox pops"! LOL! Through my government supplied minder, I asked questions of local people selected for me by my government supplied minder, who faithfully translated back and forth to give a remarkably consistent view held universally among all people in the areas of Pyongyang we were permitted to visit.

Quote:
We visited a new 300 bed Children's Hospital, across the road from Pyongyang's Maternity Hospital. A boy was having a cranial CT scan with a German Siemen's machine. That test, like all health services, is free and at state expense. But the new sanctions regime means that
the DPRK can no longer buy such machines or parts for them. North Koreans put a brave face on their self-reliance, and they do produce most of their essential medicines; but individual doctors expressed outrage.
Has this guy ever heard of Potemkin villages? And has this guy thought about how a denuclearization of North Korea would allow the country to buy more equipment for hospitals and to invest in industry and various other things the country is crying out for? Has he considered that the reason why North Korea is building nuclear weapons is that the regime's legitimacy is based solely on military might and that if it actually tried to do well by its citizens then the glaring disparity in wealth between the North and the South would reveal the incompetence of the regime?

Therefore the only thing that keeps the regime in power is to continually reference World War Two and the Korean War as though they were both yesterday and as though victory in the Korean War is right around the corner if everyone will just sacrifice what they can for the war effort. That is what Songun is about, and that is what the nuclear weapon program is about.
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:07 PM   #119
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^ To qualify the lecture technique of this English language teacher in Japan (IIRC), here's what he quotes and leaves out in green and red:

Originally Posted by Tim Anderson
Between visits to schools, hospitals and farms we visited meticulously documented history museums. Amongst other things they show that, in the 1950s war, Pyongyang was hit by 428,000 US bombs, at a time when its population did not exceed 400,000. The capital's museums display evidence of Washington's use of chemical and biological weapons against the Korean people, and of 8,000 US breaches of the 1953 armistice, notably the captured US spy ship USS Pueblo.
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Old 6th September 2017, 06:28 PM   #120
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In case anyone is wondering, the third person in that group, there with Anderson and Bartlett, was Bolivian actress and heroine Carla Ortiz.
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