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Tags Mohammed bin Salman , Saad Hariri , Saudi Arabia incidents , Saudi Arabia issues , Saudi Arabia politics , US-Saudi Arabia relations

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Old 14th November 2017, 08:50 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Sorry, I got the discussion mixed up at some point. However, I would not take the revolution to imply any large shift in religious practice in general.
Nor would I. I think the war is when the hardliners were able to get into the heads of the public. Like many harsh regimes, their greatest enemy is their greatest asset. A U.S.-backed strongman hurling chemical weapons at them while Saudi Wahhabists set up camp all over the ME, central Asia, and Africa makes for quite a set of boogeymen to juxtapose against.
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Old 14th November 2017, 09:03 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Nor would I. I think the war is when the hardliners were able to get into the heads of the public. Like many harsh regimes, their greatest enemy is their greatest asset. A U.S.-backed strongman hurling chemical weapons at them while Saudi Wahhabists set up camp all over the ME, central Asia, and Africa makes for quite a set of boogeymen to juxtapose against.
I unfortunately don't know the post-revolution history in detail as well as I'd like. I do know that Khomeini seizing control of the army during the war was chief in securing his assertion of authority. I know a few Iranian expats; though they are quite urban, liberal and irreligious, most of them seem to feel that the government holds a fair degree of legitimacy, but that the authority of the supreme leader is dubious to illegitimate. They do take their elections very seriously (Comparisons between Trump and Ahmadinejad were aplenty last year). I've very often gotten the impression that they feel that the current government is a temporary state of affairs.
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Old 14th November 2017, 10:26 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
I unfortunately don't know the post-revolution history in detail as well as I'd like. I do know that Khomeini seizing control of the army during the war was chief in securing his assertion of authority. I know a few Iranian expats; though they are quite urban, liberal and irreligious, most of them seem to feel that the government holds a fair degree of legitimacy, but that the authority of the supreme leader is dubious to illegitimate. They do take their elections very seriously (Comparisons between Trump and Ahmadinejad were aplenty last year). I've very often gotten the impression that they feel that the current government is a temporary state of affairs.
That's a very Iranian way of looking at it.
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Old 15th November 2017, 02:57 PM   #44
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So Hariri missed a deadline he set hinself to return to Lebanon. French president Micron, sorry Macron, returned from an emergency visit to KSA sent home without meeting either the King or the Lebanese PM. Now word according to Reuters citing unnamed French government officials is that Hariri will travel to France soon.
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:03 PM   #45
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In other news the Saudi savages have, following the attack on Riyadh airport with a Buscan missile admittedly manufactured by Yemen, not Iran, escalated the blockade of Yemen where now according to the UN 900,000 people have caught cholera, many millions are seriously starving while 70,000 civilians have already died, and Al Qaeda/ISIS is stronger than ever before. With direct complicity of the US and UK. Podcast with Nasser Arrabyee, a Yemeni journalist who used to write for the NYT.

Last edited by Childlike Empress; 15th November 2017 at 03:14 PM. Reason: naming Yemeni journalist
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
In other news the Saudi savages have, following the attack on Riyadh airport with a Buscan missile admittedly manufactured by Yemen, not Iran, escalated the blockade of Yemen where now according to the UN 900,000 people have caught cholera, many millions are seriously starving while 70,000 civilians have already died, and Al Qaeda/ISIS is stronger than ever before. With direct complicity of the US and UK. Podcast with Nasser Arrabyee, a Yemeni journalist who used to write for the NYT.
Stopped reading there.
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:36 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Stopped reading there.
Hey, at least you made it past "Micron".
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Old 15th November 2017, 06:37 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Stopped reading there.

Who cares?
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:33 AM   #49
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The situation in Saudi Arabia causes mixed feelings. But predominantly positive. The methods used look dictatorial, hmm what is the term for a dictator limiting the dictatorship of his fellow dictators? But the objectives look mostly very positive from a western viewpoint. More moderate Islam? Yes please. Driving license to women? Yes please. That is why the west is so calm, I guess, they are happy with the objectives, even though they would normally be very much upset with the used methods.
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Old 20th November 2017, 08:21 AM   #50
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I'm interested and fascinated despite being totally confused.

No wonder I'm a David Lynch fan.

ETA:

This is nothing compared to Syria, of course. where groups who are enemies in front A are buddies on front B and merging with groups whose objectives align in some areas until those objectives are almost reached and they turn on each other. And several more layers of crazy.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:03 PM   #51
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So Hariri is back in Lebanon after a visit to France, and he's also kind of back as Prime Minister, because the President asked him kindly. Two of his kids are still in KSA, though.
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Old 24th November 2017, 01:48 AM   #52
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What did the French PM do there anyway? Try to actually prevent wrongdoing, or simply give advice how to make the wrongdoing look less evident in public.
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Old 24th November 2017, 02:12 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JJM 777 View Post
What did the French PM do there anyway? Try to actually prevent wrongdoing, or simply give advice how to make the wrongdoing look less evident in public.
Judging by his track record, he probably looked presidential, wore a well-cut blue suit and was completely ineffective. Then he waved at people.
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Old 24th November 2017, 02:15 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Judging by his track record, he probably looked presidential, wore a well-cut blue suit and was completely ineffective. Then he waved at people.

He was sent home without seeing either Hariri or the King. Only the clown prince gave him a couple of minutes. Well, the French still kind of think Lebanon and Syria are their business. Sykes-Picot and stuff, n'est-ce pas?
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Old 24th November 2017, 02:28 AM   #55
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Just in the news: The clown prince has literally called Khamenei "the new Hitler" now. What a fool. And meanwhile the Yemeni children keep dying like flies from starvation, cholera and bombs.
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Old 24th November 2017, 09:29 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Just in the news: The clown prince has literally called Khamenei "the new Hitler" now. What a fool. And meanwhile the Yemeni children keep dying like flies from starvation, cholera and bombs.
All Yemen needs to do is to declare itself a socialist state and you won't be able to see the hunger there anymore.
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Old 24th November 2017, 08:07 PM   #57
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Nice one

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Old 24th November 2017, 08:44 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
More importantly, Iran is more in the sphere of Russian influence, and Saudi Arabia is closer to the United States.

You can't pretend anything else is important to you.

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Old 25th November 2017, 03:02 AM   #59
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^most important to me is that you keep smearing your whiny junk under my posts. Keeps me going.
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Old 25th November 2017, 03:20 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
More importantly, Iran is more in the sphere of Russian influence, and Saudi Arabia is closer to the United States.

You can't pretend anything else is important to you.

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Until they change allegiance. Why should Saudi Arabia not choose to align its policies with China any day now? It would be the smart move.

Current proximity to murderous dictatorships is "important" only for very shallow meanings of the word.
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Old 27th November 2017, 06:15 AM   #61
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Deserves explanation indeed: Why Saudi Public Relations Are So Disastrous
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:19 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
I'm not sure how Iran can make the claim that they have more Islamic history than Saudi Arabia.

Economic claims are also not entirely clear - on what basis are they made.
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:41 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure how Iran can make the claim that they have more Islamic history than Saudi Arabia.

Economic claims are also not entirely clear - on what basis are they made.

Does it say "Islam" on any of the covers? "Saudi" Arabia with its repulsive mutation of that religion is just another not very old sad creation of the Brits, btw. Contrary to Iran.
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Old 27th November 2017, 07:49 AM   #64
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Here's an interesting read about the creation of Saudi Arabia. Before you complain about the title, as he states in the comments the author understands Zionism at that time to be the implementation of the (just turned 100 years old) Balfour declaration.

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Old 27th November 2017, 09:07 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I'm not sure how Iran can make the claim that they have more Islamic history than Saudi Arabia.

Economic claims are also not entirely clear - on what basis are they made.
I think the biggest differences between them are the ones which pre-date Muslim expansion.

Economically, they sat on some of the silk road routes and had governments and budgets and fiscal/trade policies on a far greater scale that the Arabian Peninsula saw. Note that I am not saying no trade or wide-ranging informal systems existed in Arabia, but the scale is not even remotely comparable to Parthian, Sassanian, and other regimes through ancient and classical times.

This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:12 AM   #66
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Persians were very productive in the Islamic Golden Age though, and also during the Ilkhanate. Their cultural influence stretched into the entirety of the Turkic world as well. That said, there's only very limited continuity between those eras and the Iranian state of today, which is really only 500 years old at most.

Much of the celebration of Pre-Islamic Iran appears to hail from the Ilkhanate as well, with Chingiis Khan being compared to Cyrus the Great as a route to legitimacy.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:49 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Persians were very productive in the Islamic Golden Age though, and also during the Ilkhanate. Their cultural influence stretched into the entirety of the Turkic world as well. That said, there's only very limited continuity between those eras and the Iranian state of today, which is really only 500 years old at most.

Much of the celebration of Pre-Islamic Iran appears to hail from the Ilkhanate as well, with Chingiis Khan being compared to Cyrus the Great as a route to legitimacy.
I was thinking more in cultural terms (thus spanning not only governments, but even the various ethnic changes over time). Certainly a reading of that comic in a nationalistic light is poorly informed.

Certainly the modern state doesn't track well past certain points. A Mongol invasion, thorough destruction of the infrastructure, and a few centuries of neglect by similar nomadic-minded foreign invaders (yes, there were exceptions) tends to interrupt the continuity, yeah.

Culturally speaking however, and without insult or praise to the respective cultures themselves, from an objective standpoint I have to agree there's a rather stark contrast in historical depth of achievements.

Which should not be taken to mean that is the case at this moment. SA, for all its faults, is investing in renewables and desalinization. There are forces within the country which intend to continue being an "energy rich" country post fossil fuels. In terms of utility and contribution to the ever-unfolding story of humanity, that's got some weight to it, too. Especially since the most significant contributions Iran seems to be going for right now is "maybe doing some medical research or maybe making bombs."

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Old 27th November 2017, 09:59 AM   #68
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Iran produces a LOT of engineers. Their educational achievements are pretty remarkable. Albeit I'm uncertain about how SA looks in this area.
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Old 27th November 2017, 10:03 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Certainly the modern state doesn't track well past certain points. A Mongol invasion, thorough destruction of the infrastructure, and a few centuries of neglect by similar nomadic-minded foreign invaders (yes, there were exceptions) tends to interrupt the continuity, yeah.
Not to mention one of their few relatively "native" rulers, Ishma'il I, deciding to convert the country to Twelver Shi'a Islam overnight due to his own pretentions of being the Mahdi
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Old 27th November 2017, 10:22 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Iran produces a LOT of engineers. Their educational achievements are pretty remarkable. Albeit I'm uncertain about how SA looks in this area.
True, I let myself blur that culture/government distinction myself there :9.

Also again a mark against SA is that while they're pioneering some critical technologies, their investment in that still pales in comparison to say, promoting violent Wahhabism across half the globe.

So there's that, too.

Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
Not to mention one of their few relatively "native" rulers, Ishma'il I, deciding to convert the country to Twelver Shi'a Islam overnight due to his own pretentions of being the Mahdi
I'd prefer not to get going on the extraordinary hubris and pretentiousness that took.

Mostly to avoid having to acknowledge how brilliant (and lucky) he was.

:9

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Old 28th November 2017, 02:54 PM   #71
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The first princes are released from their five+ star prison. According to the report, torture in one way or another has been going on. Middle East Eye is London-based and likely not as financially independent as it seems, with Qatar paying the bills. So grains of salt as always appropriate.

Meanwhile, Hariri back as PM in Lebanon is loud in the media but doesn't want to talk about what actually happened to him in KSA. Instead, he is threatening to resign (again?) if his coalition partner Hezbollah's forces don't stop their engagement outside the country.

Which is laughable. It's like if Trump would have been kidnapped in China and "resigned" there, and even Killary and other worst enemies had demanded that China lets off of him, and then he returns and threatens to resign again if the wall isn't build.
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Old 28th November 2017, 04:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
The first princes are released from their five+ star prison. According to the report, torture in one way or another has been going on. Middle East Eye is London-based and likely not as financially independent as it seems, with Qatar paying the bills. So grains of salt as always appropriate.

Meanwhile, Hariri back as PM in Lebanon is loud in the media but doesn't want to talk about what actually happened to him in KSA. Instead, he is threatening to resign (again?) if his coalition partner Hezbollah's forces don't stop their engagement outside the country.

Which is laughable. It's like if Trump would have been kidnapped in China and "resigned" there, and even Killary and other worst enemies had demanded that China lets off of him, and then he returns and threatens to resign again if the wall isn't build.
I'm sure Hariri wasn't a big fan of a foreign-controlled militia starting wars on his country's behalf, even before his stay in KSA.
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