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Tags conservatives , cpac , Nazism charges , republican party , republicans

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Old 9th March 2021, 09:35 AM   #241
Craig4
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
If what he actually said was far dumber, wouldn't that have been the better thing to run with, and be more accurate in the bargain?

And I don't see how you can say there was no blowback, it became a piece in the whole "fake news" drumbeat, adding fuel to it.
The claim of fake news only mattered to Trump's base. The meme hurt Trump with everyone else, especially Trump voters who lost faith in his ability to handle the pandemic.
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Old 9th March 2021, 09:48 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How many people believe Donald Trump told Americans to drink bleach? I'd hazard a guess and say millions. He said nothing of the sort. I watched the news conference live and he never said people should drink bleach. He actually said something far dumber but because he's an incompetent orator, it wasn't very clear. I have no problem at all distilling his inane ramblings down to, "Drink bleach" even if he didn't say it. That press conference and the fallout from it almost certainly cost him votes. There was no blow back on Democrats.
An enlightened observation.
The difficulty is that once one disavows oneself of the duty to demonstrate their positive claim "Donald Trump told people to drink bleach", they also let their political opponents off the hook for being dishonest.

That leaves us with two religions arguing over who's god is better.
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Old 9th March 2021, 10:22 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The claim of fake news only mattered to Trump's base. The meme hurt Trump with everyone else, especially Trump voters who lost faith in his ability to handle the pandemic.
Most assuredly not so. By observation, there were plenty of people who were no particular fans of Trump that were quite put off by that kind of media behavior, and it drove them CLOSER to Trump. I know a handful personally--they specifically said that they despised Trump but that the behavior of the left affected them.

Once again I am starting to wonder about your sincerity. I have not heard someone argue so hard in favor of the need to be deceptive in campaign messages. It's a strange hill to die on, as they say.
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Old 9th March 2021, 01:00 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
The Republicans are excellent at marketing because they are excellent at three things: lying, sticking together, and repeating the lies together.
Yup, OTOH the Dems still have some shred of decency and integrity. Imagine if the current governor of NY was a Republican and their legislative houses were GOP controlled. Think he'd be facing impeachment?
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Old 10th March 2021, 07:26 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Why would any sane person want to troll people into thinking they are white supremacists? I mean, ha ha those stupid liberals, but in the meantime people think you're a Nazi. That doesn't sound like a win.
Well the trolls that did were already pretty much white supremacists.

This is one of those things that tend to annoy the heck out of me. A bunch of White Supremacists and Trolls on 8Chan decide to troll Liberals by taking an innocuous symbol and using it so that Liberals would go off about it, and their predictions were right.

Instead of saying. Dumb White Supremacists are trying to steal something that isn't theirs let's stop them by over saturating the marketplace with it and making it useless as a sign, Liberals all clutched their pearls and denounced anyone doing the OK symbol in any photo as a white supremacist, thus conceding the battlefield to them. All that was done was to teach them that their tactic worked. How long before they take something else? "Sorry LGBTQI+ Community, White Supremacists have taken use of the Rainbow to mean something offence, so you can't use it any more."
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Old 11th March 2021, 08:10 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Well the trolls that did were already pretty much white supremacists.

This is one of those things that tend to annoy the heck out of me. A bunch of White Supremacists and Trolls on 8Chan decide to troll Liberals by taking an innocuous symbol and using it so that Liberals would go off about it, and their predictions were right.

Instead of saying. Dumb White Supremacists are trying to steal something that isn't theirs let's stop them by over saturating the marketplace with it and making it useless as a sign, Liberals all clutched their pearls and denounced anyone doing the OK symbol in any photo as a white supremacist, thus conceding the battlefield to them. All that was done was to teach them that their tactic worked. How long before they take something else? "Sorry LGBTQI+ Community, White Supremacists have taken use of the Rainbow to mean something offence, so you can't use it any more."
Ironic dogwhistles work the same as the other kind.
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Old 11th March 2021, 10:49 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ironic dogwhistles work the same as the other kind.
That isn't really an argument for letting the alt-right have the okay sign
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Old 12th March 2021, 08:55 AM   #248
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The beauty of the bleach thing was that it wasn't Biden. It came from Democratic aligned third parties. Biden could still take the high road in calling out lies while his independent allies spread the meme that Trump said we should drink bleach.
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Old 12th March 2021, 09:18 AM   #249
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Pretty sure the former President suggested injecting rather than imbibing the bleach

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52407177
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Old 12th March 2021, 09:30 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
It is effectively saying that the voters can't be trusted to make the right decision,
A big part of the electorate can't be trusted. They can be given all the information and still choose to ignore it. Universal suffrage is a bad concept.
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Old 12th March 2021, 09:54 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
A big part of the electorate can't be trusted. They can be given all the information and still choose to ignore it. Universal suffrage is a bad concept.
To apply a famous quote: "...except for all the others."

Look, if your idea is not to let everyone vote, advocate for that and see where it gets you. Let's not claim to have a democracy and then rely on deceiving voters to get the "right" outcome.
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Old 12th March 2021, 09:58 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
The beauty of the bleach thing was that it wasn't Biden. It came from Democratic aligned third parties. Biden could still take the high road in calling out lies while his independent allies spread the meme that Trump said we should drink bleach.
Here I'm perceiving a back-handed attempt to discredit something by agreeing with it in an obviously malicious manner. Your phrasing of the claim is indeed not what President Trump said. It's ok just to say that. You don't have to put on a mask and talk about how great it is to tell people that's what he said. Back off the troll irony, would ya? I see it for what it is, you're not fooling anyone.
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Old 12th March 2021, 10:10 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
A big part of the electorate can't be trusted. They can be given all the information and still choose to ignore it. Universal suffrage is a bad concept.
Gnome has a better answer above, but I would also say, this applies to way more Republicans than Democrats. How do you propose to sort these uninformed voters?
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Old 13th March 2021, 07:19 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Gnome has a better answer above, but I would also say, this applies to way more Republicans than Democrats. How do you propose to sort these uninformed voters?
Well the first sort would remove anyone who believes politicians drink the blood of new borns, anyone who thinks 9/11 was implemented with CGI planes and anyone who thinks Alex Jones tells it as it is.

We can implement additional filters later.
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Old 14th March 2021, 12:20 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
Here I'm perceiving a back-handed attempt to discredit something by agreeing with it in an obviously malicious manner. Your phrasing of the claim is indeed not what President Trump said. It's ok just to say that. You don't have to put on a mask and talk about how great it is to tell people that's what he said. Back off the troll irony, would ya? I see it for what it is, you're not fooling anyone.
No, I really am that morally flexible.

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Old 15th March 2021, 05:12 AM   #256
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If someone tells me that they're OK with lying to manipulate people politically--it makes it a little hard for me to take them at their word how sincere they are. Or, increasingly, to take seriously any political argument they make.
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Old 15th March 2021, 05:13 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Well the first sort would remove anyone who believes politicians drink the blood of new borns, anyone who thinks 9/11 was implemented with CGI planes and anyone who thinks Alex Jones tells it as it is.

We can implement additional filters later.
Who gets to determine these filters?
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Old 15th March 2021, 01:34 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
A big part of the electorate can't be trusted. They can be given all the information and still choose to ignore it. Universal suffrage is a bad concept.
OK, what is your criteria for who should have the franchise?
Problem is that every time I see this suggested it ends up being "I want only those who agree with me to vote".
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Old 15th March 2021, 02:28 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
A big part of the electorate can't be trusted. They can be given all the information and still choose to ignore it. Universal suffrage is a bad concept.
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
OK, what is your criteria for who should have the franchise?
Problem is that every time I see this suggested it ends up being "I want only those who agree with me to vote".
At least one Republican (a state legislator in AZ) has come right out and said pretty much the same thing (Business Insider)- that "everybody shouldn't be voting":

Quote:
A Republican Arizona state lawmaker, who chairs a committee overseeing election administration, said that new voting restrictions are needed because "everybody shouldn't be voting" and "we have to look at the quality of votes."
...
"There's a fundamental difference between Democrats and Republicans," Kavanagh told CNN. "Democrats value as many people as possible voting, and they're willing to risk fraud. Republicans are more concerned about fraud, so we don't mind putting security measures in that won't let everybody vote — but everybody shouldn't be voting."
...
"Not everybody wants to vote, and if somebody is uninterested in voting, that probably means that they're totally uninformed on the issues," Kavanagh further told CNN. "Quantity is important, but we have to look at the quality of votes, as well."
I would say that, first, Republicans pretend they're "concerned about fraud," but, in the absence of any evidence for meaningful fraud, that's only pretense- what they really don't mind is imposing "security measures" that do nothing for the security of the electoral process in the hope that it will do more for their own party's security.

Secondly, if someone is so uninterested in the issues that he won't want to vote, he won't vote- nothing about making it easier to vote forces anybody to do so. And making it harder doesn't automatically exclude only people who aren't interested- someone who might be as totally interested in and informed on the issues as Kavanagh himself isn't, by definition, going to be someone who can pass the "quality" hurdles he wants to set up.

His whole argument is a convoluted exercise in begging the question, an assumption that a "quality" that can't be counted or even really objectively defined needs to come first, and is a more realistic and desirable aim than a simple count of quantity from which a quality is extracted.
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Old 15th March 2021, 03:16 PM   #260
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If Arizona takes up a whacked out bill, you can bet John Kavanaugh is associated with it. He represents the area outside of Phoenix where Sheriff Joe is from.
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Old 15th March 2021, 03:27 PM   #261
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If the uniformed shouldn't vote, that would eliminate Q-nuts and those who believe the 2020 election was stolen.

Be careful what you wish for there Kavanaugh.
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Old 15th March 2021, 03:50 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
At least one Republican (a state legislator in AZ) has come right out and said pretty much the same thing (Business Insider)- that "everybody shouldn't be voting":



I would say that, first, Republicans pretend they're "concerned about fraud," but, in the absence of any evidence for meaningful fraud, that's only pretense- what they really don't mind is imposing "security measures" that do nothing for the security of the electoral process in the hope that it will do more for their own party's security.

Secondly, if someone is so uninterested in the issues that he won't want to vote, he won't vote- nothing about making it easier to vote forces anybody to do so. And making it harder doesn't automatically exclude only people who aren't interested- someone who might be as totally interested in and informed on the issues as Kavanagh himself isn't, by definition, going to be someone who can pass the "quality" hurdles he wants to set up.

His whole argument is a convoluted exercise in begging the question, an assumption that a "quality" that can't be counted or even really objectively defined needs to come first, and is a more realistic and desirable aim than a simple count of quantity from which a quality is extracted.
The only "quality" that matters to Kavanaugh would seem to be the quality of "being rich and white".
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Old 15th March 2021, 04:07 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
The only "quality" that matters to Kavanaugh would seem to be the quality of "being rich and white".
How much money people have (at least) certainly does seem to affect the views of some Republicans (at least) as to the quality of the average American citizen. Some in the GOP were arguing against the stimulus bill on the presumption that the type of person who might need the extra money and extended unemployment benefits would be the type who would, by definition, take advantage of those features and stop looking for work. But when it came time to pass tax cuts which disproportionately advantaged the corporations and the rich, the presumption was that those corporations and the rich would eagerly pass along the benefits of their gains to the people who worked for them, when, of course, they largely just used them for stock buy-backs and more exclusive toys for themselves.

So, yeah...the GOP's views of how well people will act given any particular situation does seem to depend on how much money they have.
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Old 15th March 2021, 04:21 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
I would say that, first, Republicans pretend they're "concerned about fraud," but, in the absence of any evidence for meaningful fraud, that's only pretense- what they really don't mind is imposing "security measures" that do nothing for the security of the electoral process in the hope that it will do more for their own party's security.

Secondly, if someone is so uninterested in the issues that he won't want to vote, he won't vote- nothing about making it easier to vote forces anybody to do so. And making it harder doesn't automatically exclude only people who aren't interested- someone who might be as totally interested in and informed on the issues as Kavanagh himself isn't, by definition, going to be someone who can pass the "quality" hurdles he wants to set up.

His whole argument is a convoluted exercise in begging the question, an assumption that a "quality" that can't be counted or even really objectively defined needs to come first, and is a more realistic and desirable aim than a simple count of quantity from which a quality is extracted.
Not a new argument, either - here's Paul Weyrich discussing the same at a conference with segregationists Jerry Falwell and Ronald Reagan (incidentally, Weyrich was the guy who told the two to switch from overt white supremacism as their major issue to abortion restrictions):

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I AGREE


And of course, suppressing black/Native voters has been a long tradition since then, which is why many states were still covered under preclearance requirements when it was gutted in the absurd Shelby vs. Holder decision - it was always possible to get out from preclearance by simply not actively trying to suppress voters for a span of 10 years, but the states and discricts still covered simply never managed to do this (Some districts did manage this, so it was not impossible).
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Old 15th March 2021, 06:09 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Not a new argument, either - here's Paul Weyrich discussing the same at a conference with segregationists Jerry Falwell and Ronald Reagan (incidentally, Weyrich was the guy who told the two to switch from overt white supremacism as their major issue to abortion restrictions):

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I AGREE


And of course, suppressing black/Native voters has been a long tradition since then, which is why many states were still covered under preclearance requirements when it was gutted in the absurd Shelby vs. Holder decision - it was always possible to get out from preclearance by simply not actively trying to suppress voters for a span of 10 years, but the states and discricts still covered simply never managed to do this (Some districts did manage this, so it was not impossible).
Good grief! These guys have no shame.
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