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Old 13th October 2021, 12:17 PM   #3281
LondonJohn
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.

"If you knew about simple physics"

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *breathes* AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!


I can categorically assure you, Vixen, that I know enough about physics to know that if you put a large mass of water into an open-decked ship, that ship will sink in the same horizontal orientation as it would normally have been at the surface (unless the ship's balance and attitude had also been adversely affected, in which case it would capsize and sink).

The Mediterranean is littered with wrecks of Greek and Roman ships from antiquity. These ships were all open-decked as well. And in a great deal of the wrecks - probably the majority in fact - the surviving evidence shows clearly that the ship sank straight down in its keel-down horizontal attitude: the ship's cargo (usually tightly-packed amphorae) has retained the shape of the ship - something that would be impossible if the ship had capsized and spilled its cargo out at/near the surface. I've dived on two such wrecks myself.

Don't tell me I don't understand physics, when it's you yourself who does not. And don't tell me that open-decked ships can't (and don't) sink straight down (rather than your ludicrous and totally unscientific pet theory that they usually turn upside down and stay afloat for some time). I know better than you in both cases. M'kay?
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:18 PM   #3282
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming a professor from a Norwegian University's Material Science Department is acting in bad faith?

This says more about you than it does about her.

You obviously don't understand the point of the post to which you were responding.
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:20 PM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
“There’s no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact.”

BRASS EYE!!

(In fact, one particular poster's set of contributions to this thread does seem rather like a bad homage to that fabulous mockumentary series....)
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:33 PM   #3284
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I'm going to drop this now. I was trying to find out if Vixen could admit to making a mistake, even something as inconsequential as a typo, and I have my answer now.



ETA: To those that have gone to the effort of avoiding gendered pronouns when referring to me, thank you. For future reference, and to save you typing more characters than necessary, I'm fine with he/him/his &c. I'm a boy (but my mother doesn't know it).1



1She totally does, I just couldn't resist.
"I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it" - Pete Townshend
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:43 PM   #3285
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
"I'm a boy, I'm a boy
But my ma won't admit it" - Pete Townshend
Oops, I buggered up the lyrics! Apologies to Mr Townsend
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Old 13th October 2021, 12:59 PM   #3286
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Why are you continuing to humiliate yourself here Vixen? Are you pulling our legs, or are you genuinely this delusional about your own knowledge (or rather lack thereof)?
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:03 PM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If you knew about simple physics, you'd know that if a Viking longboat capsized, it would not sink but it would turn belly up. The biggest hazard was probably running into rocks, causing a breach in the hull, then you were done for. All the churches around the coastal towns have votive ships hanging from the ceiling, which probably to back to pagan times to invoke safety for those at sea.

This is a large one at Turku Cathedral.
You are kidding right?


If that's the case, tell me why the TV show survivor can violate "simple physics" in this challenge?

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I AGREE
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Old 13th October 2021, 01:39 PM   #3288
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Why are you continuing to humiliate yourself here Vixen? Are you pulling our legs, or are you genuinely this delusional about your own knowledge (or rather lack thereof)?
The Dunning–Kruger effect has been discussed extensively in the forums in the past.
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Old 13th October 2021, 02:51 PM   #3289
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This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:13 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.
This one is good too.

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Old 13th October 2021, 03:40 PM   #3291
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Anytime water gets into a ship the crew either bails it out manually (as the Vikings did I'm sure) or they run pumps.... I mean obviously. That doesn't mean its impossible for a long ship to be overwhelmed and lose buoyancy in a storm (do you disagree with this?!).

Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.
I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century.

The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea.

They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:45 PM   #3292
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Looks to me like a 32-gun frigate of the mid-to-late Napoleonic era.
The votive ships are traditionally donated.

Quote:
The practice of displaying model ships in churches stems from the Middle Ages and appears to have been known throughout Christian Europe, in both Catholic and Lutheran countries.[6] The oldest known remaining votive ship is a Spanish ship model from the 15th century. A model ship originally displayed in Stockholm Cathedral but today in the Stockholm Maritime Museum dating from circa 1590 is the oldest surviving example in the Nordic countries.
FB
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Old 13th October 2021, 03:47 PM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What is your evidence for this?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:01 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
This is a decent video using a model to recreate the sinking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNeIjqADJS0

Spoiler: The open ramp was enough to sink the vessel, and the model sink just like the real ship did.

They've posted some new videos from the private survey but I haven't watched them yet.
Problem is, there are no witnesses as to when the bow visor fell off and no witnesses as to the car ramp being open, other than a 10º gap at the top, and even this is presumed based on the word of one of the crew who only saw it on a monitor, and even then he described water coming in through the sides, not the top.

There are a lot of assumptions here which have never been proven.

The assumption - which all points to being a false premise - is that it was a facsimile of the Herald of Free Enterprise accident, and therefore they had to postulate that in order for that to have happened, the bow visor and car ramp needed to be not there.

However, there are plenty of doubts about this:
  • the Captain didn't steer the ship towards shallow water
  • the car ramp was often secured with a hewser as the locks didn't align
  • if it was secured to a capstan/windlass then it could not have been torn open (unless you are arguing the waves also cut through thick rope and a cast iron capstan
  • the original Rockwater divers found the ramp shut and thus could not enter the car deck (they claimed)
  • Arikas of OJK (July 2021) and Kurm for Mare Liberatum (Sept 2021) both found it hanging open
  • Kurm discovered that contrary to the JAIC hypothesis water and airpressure smashed Deck 4 windows, the car deck doors can be seen to be intact and shut.
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Last edited by Vixen; 13th October 2021 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:10 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
This one is good too.

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'Most likely' so not proven then.

See from 7.06 on. Explain these two guys climbing down if the car ramp had swung open.

They might well have noticed 'deformations on the stiffeners' but the forepeak of the bow visor would not be able to strike the car ramp in the middle, it being lower than the Atlantic lock. Surely those deformations are more likely to do with the presumed explosion that also caused the plastic deformations on the inner side of the bow visor.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2021-10-14 (2).jpg (22.4 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg 2021-10-14 (3).jpg (26.0 KB, 2 views)
File Type: jpg car ramp deformations.jpg (17.5 KB, 1 views)
File Type: jpg car ramp hinges 3.jpg (18.3 KB, 1 views)
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:13 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century.

The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea.

They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985
They didn't sail in bad weather or the winter and they didn't sail at night if they could help it. Most of their seafaring was coastal. They crossed the Atlantic in hops, first to Iceland and then to Greenland.
Lots of them were drowned and boats sunk.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:14 PM   #3297
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
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That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:19 PM   #3298
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Problem is, there are no witnesses as to when the bow visor fell off and no witnesses as to the car ramp being open, other than a 10º gap at the top, and even this is presumed based on the word of one of the crew who only saw it on a monitor, and even then he described water coming in through the sides, not the top.

There are a lot of assumptions here which have never been proven.

The assumption - which all points to being a false premise - is that it was a facsimile of the Herald of Free Enterprise accident, and therefore they had to postulate that in order for that to have happened, the bow visor and car ramp needed to be not there.

However, there are plenty of doubts about this:
  • the Captain didn't steer the ship towards shallow water
  • the car ramp was often secured with a hewser as the locks didn't align
  • if it was secured to a capstan/windlass then it could not have been torn open (unless you are arguing the waves also cut through thick rope and a cast iron capstan
  • the original Rockwater divers found the ramp shut and thus could not enter the car deck (they claimed)
  • Arikas of OJK (July 2021) and Kurm for Mare Liberatum (Sept 2021) both found it hanging open
  • Kurm discovered that contrary to the JAIC hypothesis water and airpressure smashed Deck 4 windows, the car deck doors can be seen to be intact and shut.
Why do you think the captain had the opportunity or time to steer towards 'shallow water'?
Where was the nearest 'shallow water'? What do you think would happen to s hip in 'shallow water' in a storm?

How strong do you think a rope is compared to the weight and force of the bow visor moving?

Why do you think the visor was not free to move and is secure in it's position on the wreck?

If the wreck has moved, what do you think that might have done to the position of the bow visor?

Do you think that there are only windows on a couple of doors on the car deck?

What about the dozens of other windows on the ship? What about the air vents and intakes for air conditioning, engines and generators?

What about other access doors?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:22 PM   #3299
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
... Also the picture you posted earlier of a ship is not a Viking Long Ship.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I didn't say it was. The Vikings were AD900or so. Churches didn't get established until circa 10th or 11th Century.

The long boats had strong rowers and some would keep watch whilst other slept. Obviously they had sea-faring skills with the Western Vikings (Norwegians) making it across the North and Irish Seas as well as the Atlantic. Grave finds for the Eastern Vikings (the Swedes) showed they traded as far away as the Black Sea.

They had a form of ballast for keeping their boats steady, a bag of sand or whatever, and of course, sails but how they coped with stormy weather or man overboard, I have no idea.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55145985

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Looks to me like a 32-gun frigate of the mid-to-late Napoleonic era.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The votive ships are traditionally donated.

[url="https://www.facebook.com/484849398254236/posts/2051117028294124/"]FB[/URL
]
I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes:

Vixen, how is any of the highlighted in any way relevant to this conversation?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:24 PM   #3300
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?
Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.


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Old 13th October 2021, 04:29 PM   #3301
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Originally Posted by junkshop View Post
I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes:

Vixen, how is any of the highlighted in any way relevant to this conversation?
You can keep up by clicking on the arrows going back.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:33 PM   #3302
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?


How to sail a Viking Ship with Atun-Shei

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Old 13th October 2021, 04:34 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.


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What has any of that got to do with an open Viking Ship?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:34 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
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Oh dear.

I mean, you've very clearly done simply a Google or YouTube search for "turned turtle", haven't you?

But unfortunately, you don't possess the critical acumen required to know what you're looking at - specifically to know whether the example you've found bears any reasonable level of resemblance to the matter under discussion.

In this instance, it bears no resemblance at all. A plastic/fibreglass dinghy with sealed air ballast chambers is a completely different kettle of fish from a large steel ship.

Is this really the best you can do?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:38 PM   #3305
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.


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I AGREE

Once again: the boats (not ships, which is the first reason why your attempt here fails) are either of fibreglass design with buoyancy chambers, or they're rigid inflatable boats (RIBs) which, uhm, rather visibly have huge sealed air chambers (the clue is also in their name...).

You don't have a clue about any of this, do you?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:42 PM   #3306
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Why do you think the captain had the opportunity or time to steer towards 'shallow water'?
Where was the nearest 'shallow water'? What do you think would happen to s hip in 'shallow water' in a storm?

How strong do you think a rope is compared to the weight and force of the bow visor moving?

Why do you think the visor was not free to move and is secure in it's position on the wreck?

If the wreck has moved, what do you think that might have done to the position of the bow visor?

Do you think that there are only windows on a couple of doors on the car deck?

What about the dozens of other windows on the ship? What about the air vents and intakes for air conditioning, engines and generators?

What about other access doors?
The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.


The theory of the ramp door being ripped open is dependent on the assumption it was locked by its internal eight locks and thus 'must have come open' by the action of the bow visor rising up 1.4m - although the JAIC does not explain how it did this - and pulling down the structure nesting the ramp framework. However, there is good evidence the car ramp was rarely fully locked as the lugs did not align so the crew just tied it with a hawser to the fo'c'sle deck capstan. This is as related by various witnesses.

If the bow visor forepeak, being held down by gravity, is ipso facto lower down than the bottom of the car ramp how the heck does it manage to deform the car ramp stiffeners? Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

The bow visor was found 1,000m away from the wreck so whether it moved with the wreck or not is neither here nor there.

The JAIC relies on the ship floating on its superstructure, even though the windows are supposedly smashed. It just doesn't happen like that.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:43 PM   #3307
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
Leg-pulling (or something darker) explains it better.
I was in the process of composing a response to this, and in defence of Vixen, arguing that she wasn't deliberately trolling in this thread, but that she genuinely believed the arguments she was presenting were true and/or realistic, and was honestly (albeit erroneously) defending her position.

Given her last few posts, however, I can no longer justify that optimistic view.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:44 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Oh dear.

I mean, you've very clearly done simply a Google or YouTube search for "turned turtle", haven't you?

But unfortunately, you don't possess the critical acumen required to know what you're looking at - specifically to know whether the example you've found bears any reasonable level of resemblance to the matter under discussion.

In this instance, it bears no resemblance at all. A plastic/fibreglass dinghy with sealed air ballast chambers is a completely different kettle of fish from a large steel ship.

Is this really the best you can do?
The Vikings had large steel ships? Maybe you don't possess the critical acumen required.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:46 PM   #3309
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Once again: the boats (not ships, which is the first reason why your attempt here fails) are either of fibreglass design with buoyancy chambers, or they're rigid inflatable boats (RIBs) which, uhm, rather visibly have huge sealed air chambers (the clue is also in their name...).

You don't have a clue about any of this, do you?
Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:46 PM   #3310
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The Vikings had large steel ships? Maybe you don't possess the critical acumen required.
Vikings had open boats. If they filled with water they sank. What is hard to understand?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:47 PM   #3311
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.
No.

Prof. Westermann said there was no contact deformation on the three small pieces on which she performed microscopic metallurgical analysis. She did not say there was no contact deformation anywhere on the bow visor.

Quote:
It just doesn't happen like that.
Says who?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:48 PM   #3312
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.
Are you claiming that's what he claimed? I strongly suggest you re-read his post.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:49 PM   #3313
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.
The most well-known thing the Vikings knew about buoyancy is that they had to constantly bail their boats, because if they didn't they would sink.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:49 PM   #3314
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You can keep up by clicking on the arrows going back.
I think that I have amply demonstrated, in this thread alone, that I am well aware of, and able to do, this.

Now, would you care to actually answer my question?





ETA: Now that I come to think of it, that's kind of my thing1, probably to the annoyance of those who wish to move on with the conversation. You would be hard pressed to come up with a worse thing to condescend to me over.


1Well, that and excessive footnotes2

2And edits to correct my spelling/grammar, add observations that occurred to me on reflection, a tendency toward somewhat purple prose, and so on and so forth.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:50 PM   #3315
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.


The theory of the ramp door being ripped open is dependent on the assumption it was locked by its internal eight locks and thus 'must have come open' by the action of the bow visor rising up 1.4m - although the JAIC does not explain how it did this - and pulling down the structure nesting the ramp framework. However, there is good evidence the car ramp was rarely fully locked as the lugs did not align so the crew just tied it with a hawser to the fo'c'sle deck capstan. This is as related by various witnesses.

If the bow visor forepeak, being held down by gravity, is ipso facto lower down than the bottom of the car ramp how the heck does it manage to deform the car ramp stiffeners? Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

The bow visor was found 1,000m away from the wreck so whether it moved with the wreck or not is neither here nor there.

The JAIC relies on the ship floating on its superstructure, even though the windows are supposedly smashed. It just doesn't happen like that.
Where is the nearest shallow water to where the MS Estonia sank?
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:50 PM   #3316
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.
How fast was the ship sinking? what was the weather? how far away was shallow water?

HOF was already in shallow and calm water.

Look where Estonia sank, look at the conditions, look at how much notice the bridge crew had that there was a problem.
They did not realise there was a problem until the ship was sinking and listing badly to starboard. It lost power and they had no control.
If it had gone in to water shallow enough to beach in a storm it would have been pounded to bits on the shore.

When the engines failed it would have swung broadside on to the sea, any boat or ship with no power turns broadside to the waves.

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Old 13th October 2021, 04:52 PM   #3317
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No.

Prof. Westermann said there was no contact deformation on the three small pieces on which she performed microscopic metallurgical analysis. She did not say there was no contact deformation anywhere on the bow visor.



Says who?
The attached diagram shows exactly what Professor Westermann examined.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bva.jpg (49.9 KB, 3 views)
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:53 PM   #3318
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.
Where is there any sealed buoyancy chamber on a Viking ship?
What would keep it afloat if it filled with water?
It has no positive buoyancy in the structure. It has iron and bronze components and fastenings, it has weapons and armour, food and other provisions and ballast stones in the bilges.

If it fills up it sinks.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:54 PM   #3319
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The most well-known thing the Vikings knew about buoyancy is that they had to constantly bail their boats, because if they didn't they would sink.
Oh please. Anyone who owns a rowing boat knows a bit of water in the boat is normal. These Vikings were master boat builders and sailors. Sure, it may have taken five hundred years to perfect their skill but perfect, they did.
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Old 13th October 2021, 04:56 PM   #3320
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh please. Anyone who owns a rowing boat knows a bit of water in the boat is normal. These Vikings were master boat builders and sailors. Sure, it may have taken five hundred years to perfect their skill but perfect, they did.
How does that stop the boat sinking if it fills with water?
Why do you think the Vikings avoided sailing in rough weather?
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