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Tags 2020 elections , donald trump , election conspiracies , Trump controversies , Trump supporters

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Old 24th November 2021, 08:58 AM   #2841
Random
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And I have great respect for him for this, if for nothing much else in his career.



Yet Trump himself didn't back it. He slunk away. He went home and packed.

The legal wranglings had nothing coup-ish either. They begged the courts. The courts said nah. Trump complied.

Do you guys not get that that is actually the opposite of a coup??? They tried to work the system within its rules (comically), and submitted to the courts authority. Coups, um...don't care much about the legal process, pretty much by definition.
Trump supported the Eastman plan, he was saying till the end that Pence should back the play. Still says it now last time I checked. The Eastman plan would not have needed the courts (except for the inevitable rubber stamp from the 6-3 Republican Supreme Court). Pence would just throw out enough Biden votes so neither side had a majority, then hand it over to the House where a majority of Republican state delegations would give the win to Trump. Sure it would be procedural poppycock, but what would the Dems actually be able to do about it?

A coup doesn't need a mountain of dead bodies, just an unlawful seizing of power.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:58 AM   #2842
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Don't leave out his personal appeals to the Georgia governor to "find" the votes to make him the winner and his continued entreaties to invalidate votes for Biden in other states (by recount or legislative fiat). Attempting to disrupt congressional validation of the election by using his ignorant/evil supporters was, as you say, just one part of the plan...the attempted coup.
And the Gov gave him a hearty FU and Trump slunk away.

The thing is, this one part is closer to an actual coup attempt than any of the rest. This was at least threatening to do something undemocratically to seize power.

If Trump had acted, and sicced prosecutors on the GA Gov, that would have actually been an attempt.

But unlike many here, I don't think threatening phone calls with no follow-through an attempted coup make.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:05 AM   #2843
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Trump supported the Eastman plan, he was saying till the end that Pence should back the play. Still says it now last time I checked. The Eastman plan would not have needed the courts (except for the inevitable rubber stamp from the 6-3 Republican Supreme Court). Pence would just throw out enough Biden votes so neither side had a majority, then hand it over to the House where a majority of Republican state delegations would give the win to Trump. Sure it would be procedural poppycock, but what would the Dems actually be able to do about it?

A coup doesn't need a mountain of dead bodies, just an unlawful seizing of power.
Yes. I know. What a coup does need is the actual attempt. No one had the balls, least of all ex-Pres Trump, to make an actual attempt. Scurrying around the edges of it, sure. A threatening phone call here, a court filing there, rabble-rousing on J6 and running home.

Doesn't matter what Trump supported, or how many legal maneuverings were denied. Push come to shove, they never took that critical step to actually attempting to seize power. Beg, file, cajole, threaten, rabble rouse, but no action that would accomplish the end.
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Old 24th November 2021, 09:07 AM   #2844
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And the Gov gave him a hearty FU and Trump slunk away.

The thing is, this one part is closer to an actual coup attempt than any of the rest. This was at least threatening to do something undemocratically to seize power.

If Trump had acted, and sicced prosecutors on the GA Gov, that would have actually been an attempt.

But unlike many here, I don't think threatening phone calls with no follow-through an attempted coup make.
Because Trump is a coward at heart. He would never specifically tell someone to do something illegal, instead speaking like a mafioso and just letting people around him know what he would like to happen. If it happens, it happens. The Georgia call was just like that if you listen to it. He never comes out and says it, because that would be illegal, he just drones on and on about how great it would be if it happened. Everyone on the phone call knows what he wants, but no one wants to be the first to say it.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:05 AM   #2845
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Because Trump is a coward at heart. He would never specifically tell someone to do something illegal, instead speaking like a mafioso and just letting people around him know what he would like to happen. If it happens, it happens. The Georgia call was just like that if you listen to it. He never comes out and says it, because that would be illegal, he just drones on and on about how great it would be if it happened. Everyone on the phone call knows what he wants, but no one wants to be the first to say it.
Agreed, completely. Which is why I don't worry to much about him, nor thought he would even go along with a coup if it happened. He is all bark, no bite.

Im worried about a smarter, more charismatic and eloquent sociopath who is taking notes, and re-direct Trump supporters. That bodes ill.
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:19 AM   #2846
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People who keep arguing it wasn't an attempted coup because it wasn't a coup really need to work on their grasp of the word "attempted".
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Old 24th November 2021, 10:37 AM   #2847
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
People who keep arguing it wasn't an attempted coup because it wasn't a coup really need to work on their grasp of the word "attempted".
And posters who argue that it was an "attempted coup" need to work on their grasp of both words.

Insurrection is not a coup attempt. They are different things, like assault and battery are different things. Its all a question of calling a spade a spade, instead of a rake.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:33 PM   #2848
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And posters who argue that it was an "attempted coup" need to work on their grasp of both words.

Insurrection is not a coup attempt. They are different things, like assault and battery are different things. Its all a question of calling a spade a spade, instead of a rake.
It most definitely was an attempt to overthrow the election and re-instate power to Trump. There is also a large amount of evidence showing that this attempt was coordinated and well funded.
Also, the attempt isn't over. The GOP continues their efforts to this day.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:44 PM   #2849
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lol it's been nearly a year and still splitting hairs on whether it was technically a coup or another word in a thesaurus
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:48 PM   #2850
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
The violent mob was only a part of the coup attempt. Trump was aiming for a paper coup, with his legally bonkers plan of having Pence throw out the Electoral votes of multiple Democratic states, then having the state delegations vote Trump into office. The mob was just there to put pressure on the Republicans who didn’t want to go along with it (many were fine with it though).

Pence held his ground though, so the mob just made a mess and looked horrible.

The coup minimalists want us to focus on the loonies who stormed the capitol (who could have never realistically taken over the country), and dismiss the wacky legal shenanigans of Eastman and the rest (who could have taken over the country, at least on paper). But they were part and parcel of the same overall plan. Create a legal ****-storm, use the existence of the legal ****-storm to justify keeping Trump in power.
This makes the rioters part of the coup even if they didn't know it.
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:51 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by slyjoe View Post
Nit - not everything. Obstruction of Justice comes to mind. There is no attempted obstruction of justice. Attempting it without success IS obstruction of justice.
Nit picked but true!
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:52 PM   #2852
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And posters who argue that it was an "attempted coup" need to work on their grasp of both words.

Insurrection is not a coup attempt. They are different things, like assault and battery are different things. Its all a question of calling a spade a spade, instead of a rake.
Coup d-etat:
Quote:
especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group
Insurrection:
Quote:
a usually violent attempt to take control of a government
They are not mutually exclusive.

ETA: Source was Merriam-Webster online
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Old 24th November 2021, 12:54 PM   #2853
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Oh, believe me, I'm not expecting you to agree. I'm a "Woo", after all. Don't let me interrupt all of this brilliance and hyperbole taking place.

In the meantime, me and my vast network of woomasters will continue to call this the "Capitol Riot", like most other grounded people and media do. For whatever nefarious reasons.
Avoidance noted.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:01 PM   #2854
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Originally Posted by Random View Post
Because Trump is a coward at heart. He would never specifically tell someone to do something illegal, instead speaking like a mafioso and just letting people around him know what he would like to happen. If it happens, it happens. The Georgia call was just like that if you listen to it. He never comes out and says it, because that would be illegal, he just drones on and on about how great it would be if it happened. Everyone on the phone call knows what he wants, but no one wants to be the first to say it.
This is exactly what Michael Cohen says is Trump's M.O. He never says directly what he wants in order to have plausible deniability.
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Old 24th November 2021, 01:38 PM   #2855
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Holy ****, you're saying someone carried a gun illegally in the United States and did nothing with it? Jesus Christ, alert the Press! That's a coup for sure!
You’re being dishonest here, or you reacted without reading the article. The man was very clear about his intentions and what prevented him from carrying them out. It also very much contradicts the notion that the insurrectionists were all talk.

Perhaps you should try to understand what is being said instead of falling back on all the theatrics.
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Old 24th November 2021, 03:11 PM   #2856
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
And posters who argue that it was an "attempted coup" need to work on their grasp of both words.

Insurrection is not a coup attempt. They are different things, like assault and battery are different things. Its all a question of calling a spade a spade, instead of a rake.
You'd better write the publisher of the Thesaurus because, according to you, they've got it wrong:

Quote:
synonyms for insurrection · coup · insurgency · mutiny · revolt · revolution · riot · sedition · uprising ...

Your attempts to minimize what happened are noted. You do realize that Mazza admitted he would have killed Pelosi with his loaded gun, don't you? Hmmm...maybe you don't since it's obvious you didn't read the Politico article.

Quote:
An Indiana man charged with carrying a loaded firearm to the Capitol on Jan. 6 told investigators that if he had found Speaker Nancy Pelosi, “you’d be here for another reason,” according to court documents posted over the weekend.

Mark Mazza, 56, is the latest of about half a dozen Jan. 6 defendants charged with bringing a gun to the Capitol. In this case, Mazza allegedly carried a Taurus revolver known as “The Judge,” which is capable of firing shotgun shells — two of which were in the chamber, along with three hollow-point bullets. A Capitol Police sergeant obtained the weapon after allegedly fending off an assault from Mazza.
Quote:
“I thought Nan and I would hit it off,” Mazza told investigators as they prepared to finish their interview. “I was glad I didn’t because you’d be here for another reason and I told my kids that if they show up, I’m surrendering, nope they can have me, because I may go down a hero.”
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:41 PM   #2857
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Originally Posted by digger View Post
No, not all coups involve the military. That is why some coups are called "military coups."

But now we're getting somewhere. All we have is a disagreement on the definition of coup. I suggest that we use the mirriam/webster definition of "coup d'etat," which is "a sudden decisive exercise of force in politics
especially : the violent overthrow or alteration of an existing government by a small group."

Do you agree to this definition? Do you agree that, by this definition, Jan 6 was a coup attempt?
Yes.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:13 PM   #2858
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You'd better write the publisher of the Thesaurus because, according to you, they've got it wrong:

synonyms for insurrection · coup · insurgency · mutiny · revolt · revolution · riot · sedition · uprising

Your attempts to minimize what happened are noted. You do realize that Mazza admitted he would have killed Pelosi with his loaded gun, don't you? Hmmm...maybe you don't since it's obvious you didn't read the Politico article.
Damn, all those words mean the same exact thing, regardless of context and relative details? Cool. I'll always remember the many coups of the summer of 2020. And especially the mutiny in Kenosha.

I hate to tell you this, but just because some psycho wanted to whack crypt keeper Pelosi, that doesn't make it a coup, either.

People here are clinging to this "Coup" nonsense because it somehow helps bolster their internal outrage over Trump. It's so ridiculous that it hasn't even taken hold in the media to any large degree. And that should tell you everything you need to know.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:20 PM   #2859
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Damn, all those words mean the same exact thing, regardless of context and relative details? Cool. I'll always remember the many coups of the summer of 2020. And especially the mutiny in Kenosha.

I hate to tell you this, but just because some psycho wanted to whack crypt keeper Pelosi, that doesn't make it a coup, either.

People here are clinging to this "Coup" nonsense because it somehow helps bolster their internal outrage over Trump. It's so ridiculous that it hasn't even taken hold in the media to any large degree. And that should tell you everything you need to know.
Awwwwwww....you're almost cute when you try so hard to spin things your way.

Quack...quack...quack...
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:24 PM   #2860
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. I know. What a coup does need is the actual attempt. No one had the balls, least of all ex-Pres Trump, to make an actual attempt. Scurrying around the edges of it, sure. A threatening phone call here, a court filing there, rabble-rousing on J6 and running home.

Doesn't matter what Trump supported, or how many legal maneuverings were denied. Push come to shove, they never took that critical step to actually attempting to seize power. Beg, file, cajole, threaten, rabble rouse, but no action that would accomplish the end.
Trump literally tried overthrow a legitimate democratic election up to and including provoking a violent mob attack on Congress and the Vice President as a means to interrupt and prevent the certification of his opponent’s win. An attack that, in some cases, made it within feet of where those congresspeople were. At the same time, he was trying to convince states decertify that same election based on nothing more than he didn’t win.

What more do you actually want to have happened in order for it to be an attempted coup? It literally fits every definition provided.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:29 PM   #2861
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
[snip]
Blah blah blah. Your lips are flapping, but you aren’t saying anything.

Put up or shut up.
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Old 24th November 2021, 06:44 PM   #2862
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Trump literally tried overthrow a legitimate democratic election up to and including provoking a violent mob attack on Congress and the Vice President as a means to interrupt and prevent the certification of his opponent’s win. An attack that, in some cases, made it within feet of where those congresspeople were. At the same time, he was trying to convince states decertify that same election based on nothing more than he didn’t win.

What more do you actually want to have happened in order for it to be an attempted coup? It literally fits every definition provided.
Aw, come on! You're not taking into account the "context and relative details" of a president calling an election 'rigged' with dead people voting, ballots being stuffed, and voting machines changing votes from Trump to Biden, or said president calling a S of S to just 'find' the exact number of votes that would give him the state. You're not taking into account the "context and detail" of telling a crowd of supporters in front of the Congress where the election is being certified to "Stop the Steal" and "You don't concede when there's theft involved. Our country has had enough. We will not take it anymore," "You will have an illegitimate president. That is what you will have, and we can't let that happen," and "If you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore". When you put all that into context and give the details, you clearly don't have an attempted coup/insurrection. You only have that when you have people attacking a government building and its police shouting to kill the VP who failed to Stop the Steal and the Speaker of the House......oh, wait.........
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Old 24th November 2021, 07:19 PM   #2863
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As Trotsky pointed out, a revolution (or in this case we substitute coup) requires the "Treason of the Clerks". In addition to the violence (provided by the enemy force that attacked the Capitol) you need the clerks or government functionaries to come to your side. What makes this a coup is that you had the violent force disrupting the functions of government and the staff working on finding a way to keep Trump in power at the same time. January 6th was a mutually supporting operation. The rioters were to buy time for the clerks to control the functions of government. Obviously, it didn't work but that doesn't mean it wasn't an attempted coup.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:52 PM   #2864
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After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.

But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:56 PM   #2865
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.
The more we learn, the clearer it becomes that it clearly was, planend in a War Room Trump set up for the purpose.

Originally Posted by Venom View Post
But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.
It's not indifference, it's coordinated Active Measures to defend the indefensible.
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Old 25th November 2021, 08:04 AM   #2866
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
After following the thread for a couple months I wouldn't call it a coup either.

But the Republican (non)response, the spin from Radical Right media, and relative indifference of the public makes me believe a real coup attempt is frighteningly likely in the coming years.
It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.
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Old 25th November 2021, 08:18 AM   #2867
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.
That’s the vibe I’m getting. On a different social media platform, I had to explain to someone that you can have a coup (1) without shots being fired, (2) with weapons that are not guns, and (3) without any weapons at all. As a bonus, I explained that coups pre-existed guns.

That last one got me ignored.
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Old 25th November 2021, 09:06 AM   #2868
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The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.
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Old 25th November 2021, 11:02 AM   #2869
Crazy Chainsaw
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.
Actually any planned disruption of the Peaceful Legal Transfer of Power can be considered a Conspiracy to Insurrection under the current laws. It doesn't even matter if an action against the Constitution occurs.
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Old 25th November 2021, 01:50 PM   #2870
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
The simple fact that Trump pressured Pence to subvert the certification process makes it an attempted coup. The storming of the Capital just raised it to a cartoon villain level. The ensuing flurry of bogus lawsuits was a display of desperate mental illness. If Trump could seize power today by somehow destroying the democratic process, he'd do it without thinking twice. It still is an attempted coup, pretty much ongoing, no matter how pathetic.

Yeah, but let's not judge him too harshly, lol.
Careful. I smell accusations of you being 'dramatic' wafting in.
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Old 25th November 2021, 02:28 PM   #2871
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Careful. I smell accusations of you being 'dramatic' wafting in.
I think I can weather the storm. I'll just take shelter in the facts.
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:32 PM   #2872
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.
Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
That’s the vibe I’m getting. On a different social media platform, I had to explain to someone that you can have a coup (1) without shots being fired, (2) with weapons that are not guns, and (3) without any weapons at all. As a bonus, I explained that coups pre-existed guns.

That last one got me ignored.
Julius Caesar. Coup, with no guns involved. And he came to power in a coup of his own in the first place.
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:40 PM   #2873
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The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated

Quote:
The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

...

FBI investigators did find that cells of protesters, including followers of the far-right Oath Keepers and Proud Boys groups, had aimed to break into the Capitol. But they found no evidence that the groups had serious plans about what to do if they made it inside, the sources said.
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exc...es-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot

Quote:
More than 570 people have been arrested, but only 40 face conspiracy charges. Those charges are often based on prior discussions about trying to enter Congress or bringing material to use in the riot; some clearly came prepared for rioting with ropes, chemical irritants and other materials. Those cases, however, are a small group among the hundreds charged and an even smaller percentage among the tens of thousands of protesters on that day.
https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...r-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.



But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:10 PM   #2874
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated



https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exc...es-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot



https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...r-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...01ce0c95bf.jpg

But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.
There is scant evidence that there was a well organized attack on the Capitol, that doesn't mean there was no attempt to Inspire idiots into an Insurrection.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:11 PM   #2875
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
[blah snip blah]
If you're going to mindlessly parrot other people's arguments, I'll just repost my reply over again:

Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Okay, so am I correct, through this haze of emotional appeal, that you believe it was not a coup attempt because the insurrectionists were not organized? If so, I question what your definition of “organized”. Where they a coordinated group with military precision? No, of course not. However, did hundreds of people spontaneously and independently get it into their heads to storm the Capitol all with the expressed purpose of stopping the certification of the election? Or was there an organized effort to get this large group of people together, get them riled up, and aim them at the Capitol? Can you honestly say there wasn’t?
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:49 PM   #2876
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
The best part is, the supposed leader of this "coup" is polling higher than Biden. Damn, how did the FBI get it so wrong? I mean, according to the thread title, this is "Trump's Coup", right?

FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated



https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exc...es-2021-08-20/

The FBI comes up empty-handed in its search for a Jan. 6 plot



https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciar...r-a-jan-6-plot

I suspect there will be a shortage of clown shoes at Amazon this holiday season. The ISF Dems have stockpiled them, apparently.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...01ce0c95bf.jpg

But, I love the family atmosphere and support. Don't miss out on this opportunity to convince each other of how right you are. Or, to at least give each other a good liberal stroking.
You might want to get a pair for yourself and a can of orange spray tan while you're at it. I'll see your FBI "according to four current and former law enforcement officials" findings and raise you one Univ. of IL Cline Center's Coup D’état Project :

Quote:
It Was an Attempted Coup: The Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project Categorizes the January 6, 2021 Assault on the US Capitol

Bottom Line: Using the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project definitions, the storming of the US Capitol Building on January 6, 2021 was an attempted coup d’état: an organized, illegal attempt to intervene in the presidential transition by displacing the power of the Congress to certify the election. Specifically, at the time of this writing, we classify it as an attempted dissident coup.

January 27, 2021
Quote:
The Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project is the world’s largest global registry of failed and successful coups. The Cline Center defines a coup as an “organized effort to effect sudden and irregular (e.g., illegal or extra-legal) removal of the incumbent executive authority of a national government, or to displace the authority of the highest levels of one or more branches of government.” To be categorized as a coup, an event must meet the following criteria (which are detailed at greater length in the Coup D’état Project codebook):

1. There must be some person or persons who initiated the coup.
2.The target of the coup must have meaningful control over national policy.
3.There must be a credible threat to the leaders' hold on power.
4.Illegal or irregular means must be used to seize, remove, or render
powerless the target of the coup.
5.It must be an organized effort.
Quote:
As explained in the Cline Center’s provisional statement, the storming of the US Capitol on January 6th clearly met the first three definitional criteria: one or more persons posed a credible threat to the power of the legislative branch to determine national policy. However, it was unclear at that time whether the attackers were trying to merely disrupt the process of governing or were attempting to change who controls the government. It was also unclear whether the assault on the Capitol was spontaneous, or had been organized in advance.

Over the past few weeks, Cline Center researchers have reviewed voluminous reporting about the event, including official documents, quotes from participants, and analysis of details in videos and images. This additional evidence clearly demonstrates that the two remaining criteria were met.
Quote:
About the Cline Center and the Coup D’état Project

The Cline Center for Advanced Social Research is a nonpartisan research center at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign with over a decade of experience in systematically categorizing acts of protest and political violence around the world. Since its initial public release in 2013, the Cline Center’s Coup D’état Project has aimed to document every coup, attempted coup, and coup conspiracy anywhere in the world since 1945. Version 2.0 of the dataset encompasses 943 events, including 426 realized coups, 336 attempts, and 181 conspiracies that occurred between 1945 and 2019. It is the largest global registry of these destabilizing events.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:50 PM   #2877
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It seems that people have preconceived notions of what a coup (attempt!) looks like -- notions that are at odds with the dictionary definition, and more importantly, at odds with the facts. This isn't Paraguay. There aren't generalissimos in white uniforms. Overthrowing an established democracy neccesarily takes a different form than overthrowing a banana republic.
A lot of it isn't even that it looks different from banana republic coups but that coups to them are something that only happens in banana republics.

The actual facts aren't close here, but it's hard for some to believe it is something that came so close to happening here. That...would make the US like other countries and not divinely protected!
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:55 PM   #2878
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Quote:
You might want to get a pair for yourself and a can of orange spray tan while you're at it. I'll see your FBI "according to four current and former law enforcement officials" findings and raise you one Univ. of IL Cline Center's Coup D’état Project :
That is dated 1/27/21. Well before the FBI investigation.

Comical.
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Old 25th November 2021, 05:58 PM   #2879
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Warp's 'reasoning' is horribly dumb all the way down.

You don't need to plan to attempt a coup. If Trump had spoken to no one and planned nothing but walked into the Capitol and declared martial law, that's a coup attempt.

You don't need to be in on a coup's plan to be part of a coup. Any general in the above example who went along wouldn't have been coordinating directly in any pre-planning, but would inarguably be part of a coup. Freaking duh.

Likewise one doesn't even have to be aware you're taking part in a coup. The people who were there on Jan 6th who marched to the Capitol but didn't storm it were still putting pressure on Pence to declare the votes invalid, which was part of the coup's plan. They were playing a part in it without necessarily being aware that's what they were doing.

But the reasoning gets even more amoeba brained when the reasoning is some of them coordinated insurrection that furthered a coup attempt, but that doesn't count because most of them didn't. WTF?

They took concrete steps in furtherance of a goal, and that goal was the illegal seizing of the power of the government, which had a plausible mechanisms of success. This was a a coup attempt and the insurrectionists were part of a coup attempt whether or not they wanted to be.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 25th November 2021 at 06:02 PM. Reason: with to without
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Old 25th November 2021, 06:09 PM   #2880
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Warp's 'reasoning' is horribly dumb all the way down.

You don't need to plan to attempt a coup. If Trump had spoken to no one and planned nothing but walked into the Capitol and declared martial law, that's a coup attempt.

You don't need to be in on a coup's plan to be part of a coup. Any general in the above example who went along wouldn't have been coordinating directly in any pre-planning, but would inarguably be part of a coup. Freaking duh.

Likewise one doesn't even have to be aware you're taking part in a coup. The people who were there on Jan 6th who marched to the Capitol but didn't storm it were still putting pressure on Pence to declare the votes invalid, which was part of the coup's plan. They were playing a part in it without necessarily being aware that's what they were doing.

But the reasoning gets even more amoeba brained when the reasoning is some of them coordinated insurrection that furthered a coup attempt, but that doesn't count because most of them didn't. WTF?

They took concrete steps in furtherance of a goal, and that goal was the illegal seizing of the power of the government, which had a plausible mechanisms of success. This was a a coup attempt and the insurrectionists were part of a coup attempt whether or not they wanted to be.
What they planned was a battle with Antifa and BLM, But Antifa and BLM were warned not to show and give Trump reason to declare the Insurrection act. In other words by announcing their desires they Screwed themselves.
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