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Tags Amanda Knox , Italy cases , Meredith Kercher , murder cases , Raffaele Sollecito

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Old Yesterday, 12:13 AM   #1921
Stacyhs
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So I messaged my friend who did walk the path but she says she only walked from the entrance to the park just next to Guede's place back toward the cottage but she can't remember how long it took. But, the Lana's place is past the path to the park entrance by Guede's so he'd have had to double back or walk down Corso Garibaldi.

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Old Yesterday, 11:33 AM   #1922
Numbers
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
So I messaged my friend who did walk the path but she says she only walked from the entrance to the park just next to Guede's place back toward the cottage but she can't remember how long it took. But, the Lana's place is past the path to the park entrance by Guede's so he'd have had to double back or walk down Corso Garibaldi.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...f37585f0f4.jpg
Stacyhs, very many thanks for providing this map. I hadn't understood that the phones were found at a location not between Guede's flat and the cottage where Kercher was murdered.
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Old Yesterday, 02:43 PM   #1923
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Stacyhs, very many thanks for providing this map. I hadn't understood that the phones were found at a location not between Guede's flat and the cottage where Kercher was murdered.

Ah but here's the thing:

Guede, by his own admission, had washed Kercher's blood from his trousers and arms and was using his sweatshirt to hide more blood stains.

Had he gone back to his apartment via the most obvious and direct route, he'd have had to walk up through Piazza Grimana, and up Corso Garibaldi. Both of those were very well-lit and with plenty of people around at that time of evening (10pm). There was also a likelihood that he'd even bump into people he knew in either or both of those locations.

But in any case, he'd risk being rather memorable as a guy walking around with wet trouser legs and using his sweatshirt as cover, plus there was obviously a reasonable likelihood that witnesses would subsequently come forward to place Guede on that route at that time (and we must remember that at this point in time, Guede would have been hoping to avoid being connected in any way to the murder he'd just committed, so it would have been pretty important to him to avoid being placed en route between the scene of the murder and his own apartment at the right time of the evening).

Instead, it would have made much more sense to Guede to take the longer and more circuitous - but much safer (from his perspective) - route along the mainly-unlit and extremely quiet (including no pedestrians at all) road around the outside of the old city wall. If he walked on the right-hand side of the road, he'd have been able to duck back down the hillside into the brush at the side of the road if he'd seen any distant car headlights approaching, so in effect he could get himself a very long way from the murder house without anyone even noticing him.

Furthermore, if he carried on past the ancient pedestrian gate through the city wall (which I believe was locked at that time of evening anyhow) and instead passed through the wall at the roadway entrance that was near Lana's house, he'd have an additional potential benefit: if anyone had seen him walking between that point and his apartment, he'd have been walking in the opposite direction to that which he'd have walked had he gone directly from the cottage to his apartment (ie up Corso Garibaldi). So he could claim he was coming back from having been somewhere in entirely the opposite direction than the cottage.

So I think this is exactly what Guede did, and exactly why he did it. It tallies perfectly with the technology evidence as well. And I think (as I've said before) that the unexpected alert on Kercher's UK phone (the one he was unable to turn off) when the GPRS media message came through startled and disconcerted him to such a degree that he concluded the phones were now just too risky to remain in his possession. So he threw them as far as he could, at the point where he turned up to go up the road passage through the wall, thinking that there was nothing on that other side of the outer road but scrub and hillside. But instead, he found Lana's garden.

(There's also a possibility in my mind that Guede had always intended to throw away the phones at that point in his journey home - after all, he'd have known that they were potentially an extremely strong tie to the victim, even with the SIMs removed and the phones unlocked. On the other hand, Guede may have (erroneously) believed that removing the SIMs and scrubbing/unlocking the phones would effectively erase any link to their previous owner, and thus may well have thought he could make some money selling them on the black market. And on balance, I do think that he had indeed intended to hold onto the phones and sell them on, but that the incoming GPRS MMS alert had frightened him into thinking that the risk to him of holding onto the phones any longer was just too high.)
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 PM   #1924
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(For reference: the red line in Stacy's map is the line of the old city wall)
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Old Yesterday, 07:59 PM   #1925
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Ah but here's the thing:

Guede, by his own admission, had washed Kercher's blood from his trousers and arms and was using his sweatshirt to hide more blood stains.

Had he gone back to his apartment via the most obvious and direct route, he'd have had to walk up through Piazza Grimana, and up Corso Garibaldi. Both of those were very well-lit and with plenty of people around at that time of evening (10pm). There was also a likelihood that he'd even bump into people he knew in either or both of those locations.

But in any case, he'd risk being rather memorable as a guy walking around with wet trouser legs and using his sweatshirt as cover, plus there was obviously a reasonable likelihood that witnesses would subsequently come forward to place Guede on that route at that time (and we must remember that at this point in time, Guede would have been hoping to avoid being connected in any way to the murder he'd just committed, so it would have been pretty important to him to avoid being placed en route between the scene of the murder and his own apartment at the right time of the evening).

Instead, it would have made much more sense to Guede to take the longer and more circuitous - but much safer (from his perspective) - route along the mainly-unlit and extremely quiet (including no pedestrians at all) road around the outside of the old city wall. If he walked on the right-hand side of the road, he'd have been able to duck back down the hillside into the brush at the side of the road if he'd seen any distant car headlights approaching, so in effect he could get himself a very long way from the murder house without anyone even noticing him.

Furthermore, if he carried on past the ancient pedestrian gate through the city wall (which I believe was locked at that time of evening anyhow) and instead passed through the wall at the roadway entrance that was near Lana's house, he'd have an additional potential benefit: if anyone had seen him walking between that point and his apartment, he'd have been walking in the opposite direction to that which he'd have walked had he gone directly from the cottage to his apartment (ie up Corso Garibaldi). So he could claim he was coming back from having been somewhere in entirely the opposite direction than the cottage.

So I think this is exactly what Guede did, and exactly why he did it. It tallies perfectly with the technology evidence as well. And I think (as I've said before) that the unexpected alert on Kercher's UK phone (the one he was unable to turn off) when the GPRS media message came through startled and disconcerted him to such a degree that he concluded the phones were now just too risky to remain in his possession. So he threw them as far as he could, at the point where he turned up to go up the road passage through the wall, thinking that there was nothing on that other side of the outer road but scrub and hillside. But instead, he found Lana's garden.

(There's also a possibility in my mind that Guede had always intended to throw away the phones at that point in his journey home - after all, he'd have known that they were potentially an extremely strong tie to the victim, even with the SIMs removed and the phones unlocked. On the other hand, Guede may have (erroneously) believed that removing the SIMs and scrubbing/unlocking the phones would effectively erase any link to their previous owner, and thus may well have thought he could make some money selling them on the black market. And on balance, I do think that he had indeed intended to hold onto the phones and sell them on, but that the incoming GPRS MMS alert had frightened him into thinking that the risk to him of holding onto the phones any longer was just too high.)
Thanks, LondonJohn. This analysis seems to me the most likely scenario for Guede's path.

But what would he have done with the murder weapon? Discard it somewhere along the path, perhaps in a an overgrown area adjacent to the path?

When the police became aware that Meredith Kercher had been murdered by some with a knife in the cottage, while her phones had been found some distance away in the Biscarini - Lena family's garden, did the police launch a search for the knife along the likely paths from the cottage?

If the police did not conduct a search for the knife, what would have been their reasoning? Would a failure to conduct a thorough search be considered a dereliction of responsible investigatory action, and thus an example of malpractice?

What would be the benefit, if any, to the police and prosecutor of their quick conclusion, without any scientific forensic evidence, that the break-in was staged by one or more known "insiders" as part of a sex game - murder rather than a real break-in followed by a sexual assault and murder by a possibly unknown person?

Last edited by Numbers; Yesterday at 08:01 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM   #1926
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Thanks, LondonJohn. This analysis seems to me the most likely scenario for Guede's path.

But what would he have done with the murder weapon? Discard it somewhere along the path, perhaps in a an overgrown area adjacent to the path?

When the police became aware that Meredith Kercher had been murdered by some with a knife in the cottage, while her phones had been found some distance away in the Biscarini - Lena family's garden, did the police launch a search for the knife along the likely paths from the cottage?

If the police did not conduct a search for the knife, what would have been their reasoning? Would a failure to conduct a thorough search be considered a dereliction of responsible investigatory action, and thus an example of malpractice?

What would be the benefit, if any, to the police and prosecutor of their quick conclusion, without any scientific forensic evidence, that the break-in was staged by one or more known "insiders" as part of a sex game - murder rather than a real break-in followed by a sexual assault and murder by a possibly unknown person?
Frank Sfarzo who wrote Perugia Shock blog. Said that he had the change to ask a police officer guarding the cottage shortly after the murder. If they had a search the area below the cottage. He was told "no need" we found the murder weapon at the boyfriend apartment.

Last edited by schmidt61; Yesterday at 08:22 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 08:53 PM   #1927
TruthCalls
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
(For reference: the red line in Stacy's map is the line of the old city wall)
I'd also like to point out that the map has the wrong location for the cottage (IIRC this is why the Carabinieri had such a hard time finding it). It's true location is marked by a red X below.

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Old Yesterday, 11:47 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by TruthCalls View Post
I'd also like to point out that the map has the wrong location for the cottage (IIRC this is why the Carabinieri had such a hard time finding it). It's true location is marked by a red X below.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ictureid=12981
You are absolutely correct. I didn't draw this map so didn't catch that. Your red X does mark the correct location of the cottage. Thanks.
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Old Today, 12:12 AM   #1929
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I took video from the entrance/exit to Parc Sant'Angelo but I can't post a video here so I made some pics to show how close it is to Guede's apartment.
The path that runs along the outside of the wall to near the the cottage.



The entrance/exit:



If coming up from the park, turn right at top of stairs and you can see the little alley way to RG's apt. . At the end, turn left and his apt. is just a couple down on the left. Takes less than 30 seconds.



Guede's apt.


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Old Today, 12:58 PM   #1930
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Google Maps gives the distance from Via della Pergola (the cottage address, but offset from the actual cottage location) to Via Sperandio 5 (the Biscarini family address was Via Sperandio 5 - bis, meaning the second #5) as 950 meters and walking time on the outside the wall path as 15 minutes. The time on an interior path is given as 14 minutes.

Now the above distance and times in reality are somewhat greater, because the cottage is actually on Viale Saint Antonio, just beyond its intersection with Via della Pergola.

Source: https://www.google.it/maps/dir/Via+d...9!2d43.1212808
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Old Today, 01:10 PM   #1931
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Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Google Maps gives the distance from Via della Pergola (the cottage address, but offset from the actual cottage location) to Via Sperandio 5 (the Biscarini family address was Via Sperandio 5 - bis, meaning the second #5) as 950 meters and walking time on the outside the wall path as 15 minutes. The time on an interior path is given as 14 minutes.

Now the above distance and times in reality are somewhat greater, because the cottage is actually on Viale Saint Antonio, just beyond its intersection with Via della Pergola.

Source: https://www.google.it/maps/dir/Via+d...9!2d43.1212808
My friend who walked the path said she entered the park just around the corner from his house (in my pictures above) and walked to its end which is very close to the cottage. She said it was easy to then go up to the cottage under the trees so she never had to walk on a road.

It makes sense to me that is how Guede would have left without being seen. No one would be walking that path on a cold November night.
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Old Today, 03:42 PM   #1932
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Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
My friend who walked the path said she entered the park just around the corner from his house (in my pictures above) and walked to its end which is very close to the cottage. She said it was easy to then go up to the cottage under the trees so she never had to walk on a road.

It makes sense to me that is how Guede would have left without being seen. No one would be walking that path on a cold November night.

Exactly. Plus that path was either unlit or poorly lit for most of its length. And in addition, Guede would have been able to see oncoming cars (of which there were very few on that road at that time of night in any case) when they were still a considerable distance from him, on account of the light from their headlights, and he'd have been able to move into the shadows or simply turn to face away from the traffic as it passed by.

And incidentally, if our collective viewpoint on Guede's movements after he left the cottage (and his reasons for choosing those particular movements) is reasonably accurate, it lends yet more weight to the notion of Guede's guilty mind (as opposed to Guede's claims of having had nothing whatsoever to do with the murder).
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Old Today, 04:13 PM   #1933
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This Italian article says that Guede had failed to renew his legal residency before the murder in 2007. According to Luca Maori, Raff's lawyer, this makes it mandatory for him to be deported.

Quote:
Rudy Guede, the first problem arrives. And it is that of the residence permit. In fact, Guede, born in the Ivory Coast, at the time of his arrest in 2007 seems to have had an expired residence permit. And for this reason, according to the lawyer Luca Maori, he would risk expulsion today. Indeed, according to Maori, "if he remained here one could even hypothesize an omission of official acts by the quaestor of the city in which he is resident".
Quote:
The problem of the residence permit has already been raised by Claudio Mariani of the CSC during the interview published yesterday by Tusciaweb. "What's in Guede's future?" he was asked by his colleague Raffaele Strocchia. "To make plans – replied Mariani, who has followed Guede since the beginning of his imprisonment – it is necessary that the conditions first mature, starting from the request for a residence permit. Until he has it, he will not be able to enter into contracts, make work agreements, have a residence. There are stakes to overcome."

According to Maori, defender of Raffaele Sollecito, Rudy Guede must in fact be expelled from Italy, "because – Maori explained to the newspaper Umbria24 – already when he was arrested in 2007 on charges of having murdered Meredith Kercher in Perugia he had an expired residence permit. Now, after 14 years in prison and a sentence that has largely become final, it is the Criminal Code that imposes his expulsion from Italy".

From an administrative point of view - added the lawyer - already in 2007 Guede was clandestine, they had to kick him out even if he had not committed the murder. There is a rule according to which if a foreigner commits crimes involving a sentence of more than five years he must be deported, and Guede has a very serious criminal record. Why are Moroccans who peddle after years in prison kicked out of Italy and Guede not? If he remained here, one could even hypothesize an omission of official acts by the quaestor of the city in which he is resident".
http://www.tusciaweb.eu/2021/11/rudy...so-dallitalia/
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