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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 6th April 2021, 07:38 AM   #361
Matthew Best
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sadly I did - the summary: nice formatting, content crap.
Thanks. I suppose I should remember that this is the [Trials and] ERRORS Section.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:40 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That may or may not be so. Remember: you have received all of this information via Bradley Edwards and Virginia Guiffre's superb PR campaign to highlight the issue.

A criminal court of law will take the view of
  • a presumption of innocence until it has heard ALL of the evidence brought before it
  • a level playing field: the parties will be treated equitably.
  • Justice is to be seen and heard.
  • Justice is blind.
  • Then and only then after ALL the evidence is put forward and EACH of the parties heard is the verdict considered.

And that is the way it should be.
Last time I looked, I was not on the jury, so I am not limited to a presumption of innocence. The law has to err in favour of the accused, but there is no reason why I can't assess the publicly-available information and conclude that unless Maxwell had a body-double, or her accusers all have lots of reasons to lie, why we should trust them over someone so unsavoury.
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Old 6th April 2021, 07:42 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That may or may not be so. Remember: you have received all of this information via Bradley Edwards and Virginia Guiffre's superb PR campaign to highlight the issue.
Who?
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:01 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by Ian Osborne View Post
Am I right in saying a pyramid selling scheme is a specific type of Ponzi scheme, in that it relies on new recruits paying older ones? Or are they two completely different things?

Either way, the terms are not interchangeable.

Oh for pete's sake, they are two different, unrelated forms of fraud that both depend on recruiting new blood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_scheme
https://www.investopedia.com/insight...yramid-scheme/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/ponzischeme.asp
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:02 AM   #365
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Who?
Was she an actress in The Wolf of Wall St? If so she will of course be an expert on something to do with something or t’other.
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:12 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Was she an actress in The Wolf of Wall St? If so she will of course be an expert on something to do with something or t’other.

No, silly. She was actually that tragic 8-year-old black girl who was murdered in the UK about 20 years ago by her great aunt and her (great aunt's) boyfriend, which also triggered a long-running and well-known public enquiry into the failings of child social services.

Awful to learn that she was also allegedly lured into a sexy Ponzi scheme by Epstein and Maxwell though. What a miserable young life she had.
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:23 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That may or may not be so. Remember: you have received all of this information via Bradley Edwards and Virginia Guiffre's superb PR campaign to highlight the issue.
.....
No, actually, we've received quite a lot of information directly from the prosecutors who have filed federal and state charges against her.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/29/us/gh...ges/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/gh...ein/index.html
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...tner-in-crime/
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Old 6th April 2021, 08:54 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, silly. She was actually that tragic 8-year-old black girl who was murdered in the UK about 20 years ago by her great aunt and her (great aunt's) boyfriend, which also triggered a long-running and well-known public enquiry into the failings of child social services.

Awful to learn that she was also allegedly lured into a sexy Ponzi scheme by Epstein and Maxwell though. What a miserable young life she had.
No, no, no, that was Victoria Climbie. I'm fairly sure this Victoria is a well-known former Spice Girl with an aversion to smiling (not surprising given that she's a victim of such a dreadful crime, as well as being a Spice Girl).
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:37 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
No, actually, we've received quite a lot of information directly from the prosecutors who have filed federal and state charges against her.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/29/us/gh...ges/index.html
https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/us/gh...ein/index.html
https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...tner-in-crime/
Why have you quoted three different newspaper articles when they all get their information from the same one or two centralised press agencies?

Did you not know that?

You can quote two dozen news articles but it doesn't add anything to the sum.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:40 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why have you quoted three different newspaper articles when they all get their information from the same one or two centralised press agencies?

Did you not know that?

You can quote two dozen news articles but it doesn't add anything to the sum.
You hear that? You can quote any number of actual sources but it doesn't matter. Having watched a movie, however, makes all the difference in the world.

Congratulations, Vixen, assuming that is all performance theatre.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:42 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You hear that? You can quote any number of actual sources but it doesn't matter. Having watched a movie, however, makes all the difference in the world.

Congratulations, Vixen, assuming that is all performance theatre.
Not my problem if you are unable to spot tongue-in-cheek.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:49 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
I have noticed that people who know little about a topic do tend to rely heavily on Wikipedia-type sites. Not criticising. It is commendable that you should look it up to clarify your understanding.
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Old 6th April 2021, 09:57 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have noticed that people who know little about a topic do tend to rely heavily on Wikipedia-type sites. Not criticising. It is commendable that you should look it up to clarify your understanding.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:04 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
No, no, no, that was Victoria Climbie. I'm fairly sure this Victoria is a well-known former Spice Girl with an aversion to smiling (not surprising given that she's a victim of such a dreadful crime, as well as being a Spice Girl).

Bloody hell, really? Well, that might explain the lyrics to the Spice Girls song "Who Do You Think You Are". It's now clear to me that it's a harrowing autobiographical account of Posh Spice's first *introduction* to Prince Andrew:

Note the lines:


Giving is good as long as you're getting
What's driving you it's ambition and betting

I said who do you think you are
Ooh some kind of superstar (oh, oh, oh)
Ed's note: this is obviously rhythmic shouts of pain and violation

You have got to swing it, shake it, move it, make it
Who do you think you are
Trust it, use it, prove it, groove it
Show me how good you are
Swing it, shake it, move it, make it
Who do you think you are
Trust it, use it, prove it, groove it
Show how good you are



And the two most horrifying lyric lines from that song, which now receive their true, sinister explanation:

You're swelling out in the wrong direction

and

The race is on to get out of the bottom


Poor, poor Victoria.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:21 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Why have you quoted three different newspaper articles when they all get their information from the same one or two centralised press agencies?
....
If you had taken the time to look you would see that they quote the federal and New York prosecutors who actually charged Maxwell with numerous crimes. Or do you think the press shouldn't base their reports on actual sources?
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:22 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have noticed that people who know little about a topic do tend to rely heavily on Wikipedia-type sites. Not criticising. It is commendable that you should look it up to clarify your understanding.
It's laughable that you're not willing to do the same.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:46 AM   #377
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
If you had taken the time to look you would see that they quote the federal and New York prosecutors who actually charged Maxwell with numerous crimes. Or do you think the press shouldn't base their reports on actual sources?
All the prosecutors were doing was laying out their charges. That is not the same as hearing Maxwell's side of the story.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:54 AM   #378
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
It's laughable that you're not willing to do the same.
I don't need to. I worked several years on Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) cases so am quite familiar with the thousand and one variations of fraud. It was awfully sweet of you to lecture me on Ponzi. However, no criminal sits down and says, hey, let's start a Ponzi scheme: we had better see what Wikipedia says first to make sure we carry it out exactly to the letter in case someone mistakes it for a pyramid selling scheme or some other kind of fraud. The truth is, my friend, criminals are very creative and rarely repeat an historical crime step by step. Many major financial crimes are unique in their own way. For you to claim Epstein should have looked up Wikipediia to get it right is rather quaint. However, the truth is, Epstein had zero respect for the people he abused and conned. He had nothing but contempt for both his sex worker victims or his illustrous clientele. It is doubtful he had much respect for Maxwell either, but we shall see at her trial whether one shoudl pity her or despise her.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:55 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
All the prosecutors were doing was laying out their charges. That is not the same as hearing Maxwell's side of the story.
We know her side. The links quote her lawyer. She's innocent. She never did any of it.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:57 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
We know her side. The links quote her lawyer. She's innocent. She never did any of it.
Then that indicates she intends to challenge the charges.
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Old 6th April 2021, 10:57 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't need to. I worked several years on Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) cases so am quite familiar with the thousand and one variations of fraud. It was awfully sweet of you to lecture me on Ponzi. However, no criminal sits down and says, hey, let's start a Ponzi scheme: we had better see what Wikipedia says first to make sure we carry it out exactly to the letter in case someone mistakes it for a pyramid selling scheme or some other kind of fraud. The truth is, my friend, criminals are very creative and rarely repeat an historical crime step by step. Many major financial crimes are unique in their own way. For you to claim Epstein should have looked up Wikipediia to get it right is rather quaint. However, the truth is, Epstein had zero respect for the people he abused and conned. He had nothing but contempt for both his sex worker victims or his illustrous clientele. It is doubtful he had much respect for Maxwell either, but we shall see at her trial whether one shoudl pity her or despise her.
What on earth are you raving about? You -- not anybody else -- first claimed that Epstein and Maxwell were running a "sex Ponzi scheme." And apparently you still are.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:10 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Not my problem if you are unable to spot tongue-in-cheek.
Wow, you can't even do humour without being adversarial.

What was the humour in pointing out that the links all had the same sources? I'm genuinely curious to see how you'll twist yourself into pretzels for this one.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:11 AM   #383
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I have noticed that people who know little about a topic do tend to rely heavily on Wikipedia-type sites.
As opposed to people who know nothing about a topic tending to rely on the Wolf of Wall-Street.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:12 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't need to. I worked several years on Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) cases so am quite familiar with the thousand and one variations of fraud.
And yet you're unfamiliar with what constitutes a ponzi scheme vs a pyramid scheme. But you've seen The Wolf of Wall Street so I guess I'm out of my element, here.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:13 AM   #385
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I predict that Maxwell's side of the story is going to be, "even if I did do those things (which I do not admit), it shouldn't count because of these technicalities."
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:16 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wow, you can't even do humour without being adversarial.

What was the humour in pointing out that the links all had the same sources? I'm genuinely curious to see how you'll twist yourself into pretzels for this one.
The tongue-in-cheek reference was to The Wolf of Wall Street.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:17 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
And yet you're unfamiliar with what constitutes a ponzi scheme vs a pyramid scheme. But you've seen The Wolf of Wall Street so I guess I'm out of my element, here.
Never mind. It is not a joke if one has to explain it.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:20 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
What on earth are you raving about? You -- not anybody else -- first claimed that Epstein and Maxwell were running a "sex Ponzi scheme." And apparently you still are.
I could say Epstein and Maxwell are like a pair of scavenging wolves. That's my analogy. End of.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:23 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I predict that Maxwell's side of the story is going to be, "even if I did do those things (which I do not admit), it shouldn't count because of these technicalities."
I predict she will 'do a Weinstein' and get her rottweiler barrister to savage the witnesses testifying against her. It will be brutal.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:28 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The tongue-in-cheek reference was to The Wolf of Wall Street.
Were you also joking when you implied you had any knowledge whatsoever of criminal law, and when you mistook a statement of fact for a legal judgment?

Quote:
It is not a joke if one has to explain it.
That's not what "don't explain the joke" means, but then they haven't made a movie about that for you to become an expert on the back of yet.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:31 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I predict she will 'do a Weinstein' and get her rottweiler barrister to savage the witnesses testifying against her. It will be brutal.
And it got Weinstein, 67, a 23 year sentence. That might not be the most effective strategy.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:40 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I don't need to. I worked several years on Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) cases so am quite familiar with the thousand and one variations of fraud. It was awfully sweet of you to lecture me on Ponzi. However, no criminal sits down and says, hey, let's start a Ponzi scheme: we had better see what Wikipedia says first to make sure we carry it out exactly to the letter in case someone mistakes it for a pyramid selling scheme or some other kind of fraud. The truth is, my friend, criminals are very creative and rarely repeat an historical crime step by step. Many major financial crimes are unique in their own way. For you to claim Epstein should have looked up Wikipediia to get it right is rather quaint. However, the truth is, Epstein had zero respect for the people he abused and conned. He had nothing but contempt for both his sex worker victims or his illustrous clientele. It is doubtful he had much respect for Maxwell either, but we shall see at her trial whether one shoudl pity her or despise her.

Well yeah, but he does surely get some credit for successfully managing The Beatles - first to British dominance, then to World dominance.
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Old 6th April 2021, 11:40 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
And it got Weinstein, 67, a 23 year sentence. That might not be the most effective strategy.
"Gislaine Maxwell was railroaded. Even though the defense thoroughly eviscerated all the witnesses, the jury still returned a guilty verdict. There must have been tampering. The real criminals here are the judge and his co-conspirators!"

- Somebody in 2024, probably

And then there will be a ten year thread attempting to drive home the rebuttal to the claim that the witnesses were eviscerated, and attempting to get actual evidence of jury tampering.

Last edited by theprestige; 6th April 2021 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:00 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Never mind. It is not a joke poorly told if one has to explain it.
FTFY
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Old 6th April 2021, 12:43 PM   #395
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Earlier someone raised the issue of prosecuting Maxwell's customers. So here's a question: Should the prosecutors offer Maxwell's customers plea deals, in exchange for their testimony?

Personally I think if it comes down to whether or not they can secure a conviction for Maxwell, they should probably offer some deals to her customers. I'd rather a few of them get relative slaps on the wrist, in exchange for ensuring she's put away, then her going free while the prosecution throws the book at a few of her customers.

I also like the Brazilian system better: Instead of plea deals, they offer sentencing deals. If you cooperate fully with the police and the courts, you still get convicted of the heinous crimes you actually committed. But you get a more lenient sentence. It's similar to getting time off for good behavior, or getting paroled because you've shown real remorse. Similar, but superior to those, since you're actually contributing up front to the pursuit of justice, rather than just apologizing for your injustices after all is said and done. Way better than the American grey market of plea deals.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:01 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'.
There is no such thing as an "EU standard" murder term.
And you understanding is utterly wrong; the "average" 'life' sentence in Sweden is 20-22 years, 16 yearns in Denmark, 18 years in France, 21 in Switzerland (15 years is the minimum for a life tarriff) et cetera.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.

Perhaps because you do not understand the severity of the suffering inflicted?

Murderers often have excellent prospects for rehabilitation, it is odd in that it is a severe offense that is often a first offense. Sex offenders, and especially sex traffickers for profit, are not comparable.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:23 PM   #397
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I wonder if it can be said that people who commit crimes of passion are less likely to re-offend, than people who commit crimes as a business proposition.

Obviously some people have emotional control issues and/or powerful urges, and are likely to commit more crimes of "passion" if they are not helped with these other things.

But a person who carries out a business plan to exploit people for money is probably going to view jail time as a business expense or investment risk, and go right back to that business model (or a similar one) upon release.

On the other hand, I'm probably full of it.
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Old 6th April 2021, 01:59 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Earlier someone raised the issue of prosecuting Maxwell's customers. So here's a question: Should the prosecutors offer Maxwell's customers plea deals, in exchange for their testimony?

Personally I think if it comes down to whether or not they can secure a conviction for Maxwell, they should probably offer some deals to her customers. I'd rather a few of them get relative slaps on the wrist, in exchange for ensuring she's put away, then her going free while the prosecution throws the book at a few of her customers.

I also like the Brazilian system better: Instead of plea deals, they offer sentencing deals. If you cooperate fully with the police and the courts, you still get convicted of the heinous crimes you actually committed. But you get a more lenient sentence. It's similar to getting time off for good behavior, or getting paroled because you've shown real remorse. Similar, but superior to those, since you're actually contributing up front to the pursuit of justice, rather than just apologizing for your injustices after all is said and done. Way better than the American grey market of plea deals.
Agree entirely with the final paragraph. Especially if it means that bad faith could get the sentence increased akin to violating parole conditions
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:10 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Agree entirely with the final paragraph. Especially if it means that bad faith could get the sentence increased akin to violating parole conditions
Yes! And that is one of the points raised in my readings on the Lava Jato case in Brazil. IIRC, at least one of the co-conspirators had their lenient sentencing revoked when they failed to come up with anything useful to justify the leniency.
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Old 6th April 2021, 02:19 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
There is no such thing as an "EU standard" murder term.
And you understanding is utterly wrong; the "average" 'life' sentence in Sweden is 20-22 years, 16 yearns in Denmark, 18 years in France, 21 in Switzerland (15 years is the minimum for a life tarriff) et cetera.



Perhaps because you do not understand the severity of the suffering inflicted?

Murderers often have excellent prospects for rehabilitation, it is odd in that it is a severe offense that is often a first offense. Sex offenders, and especially sex traffickers for profit, are not comparable.
I am not sure this is correct, as Finland has the same laws as Sweden and a person convicted of murder rarely gets more than twelve years. I think you need to be careful about the term, 'life' as few people get sentenced to life. Most people convicted of murder will get a set sentence rather than 'life' and that sentence is relatively lenient in many people's eyes. The people who get a life sentence will be those involved in terrorism or serial killers, or some such. I know Sweden brought in a law at the beginning of last year to increase 'life' to 20 years and if that has now been effected, then it has not yet been long enough for '20 years' to be called an 'average' of all those serving sentences for life. Likewise, in the UK, whilst the judges have the power to impose 'tariffs' and 'whole life tariffs', that is purely discretionary, and will apply to the particularly heinous murders, such as terror acts or acts against humanity (which Norway's Breivik was sentenced under and he got 21 years, which is exceptional). In the meantime, most people in the UK convicted of murder rarely get more than twelve years. The problem with a murder conviction anywhere in the western world is that courts have the power to apply a whole range of sentencing from five years to whole life.

In addition, the Latin countries are under Roman Law and their sentencing again will differ from Northern Europe, because of cultural mores and individual acts of state government, although there are similarities in that they are tribunal panels, which although classic Roman Law, adopt the German model, rather than the Napoleonic one of Latin Europe.

If Ghislaine Maxwell is merely a Madam, then I don't see her sentence as being one that demands the equivalent of life.

However, I believe her crimes go beyond mere sex and into the realms of conspiracy and extortion.
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