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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 10th August 2021, 06:46 AM   #1241
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I saw that. Giuffre's lawyers say that Andy's team have been stonewalling and the statute of limitations was about to run out.
That's right. It has come out now because today was the deadline.
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Old 10th August 2021, 07:04 AM   #1242
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
That's right. It has come out now because today was the deadline.
If we go by the color scheme on the lawsuit, it's actually a little ways above the deadline.
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Old 10th August 2021, 11:53 AM   #1243
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If we go by the color scheme on the lawsuit, it's actually a little ways above the deadline.
Fair enough. She had until 14 Aug 2021. That is a Sunday. I don't know if the US legal system is similar to the UK but deadlines are usually designated as
Wednesday.
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Old 10th August 2021, 12:25 PM   #1244
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Fair enough. She had until 14 Aug 2021. That is a Sunday. I don't know if the US legal system is similar to the UK but deadlines are usually designated as
Wednesday.
In the US, deadlines vary depending on weather conditions. Also they're different the closer you get to the tropical latitudes.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:11 PM   #1245
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I thought that this was interesting. Bit of a grain of salt, due to the source (Michael Wolff).

Quote:
Steve Bannon prepped Jeffrey Epstein for CBS interview, Michael Wolff claims

Ex-Trump strategist told financier to ‘stick to his message, which is that he is not a paedophile’, New York Times reports

Jeffrey Epstein gave a series of interviews on film in 2019 in which his interviewer said the financier and convicted sex trafficker was “engaging, not threatening … [not] at all creepy … a sympathetic figure”.

The interviewer was the former Trump strategist Steve Bannon.

The episode, as reported by the New York Times, is described in a book of profiles, Too Famous: The Rich, the Powerful, the Wishful, the Notorious, the Damned, due out in October. The author is Michael Wolff, who wrote Fire and Fury and two other exposés of Donald Trump’s presidency.

The Times also reported that Bannon told Epstein to “look directly into the camera now and then”, so as not to come across as stupid, and advised his subject “not to share his racist theories on how Black people learn”.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:37 PM   #1246
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I thought that this was interesting. Bit of a grain of salt, due to the source (Michael Wolff).
Heh. For me, what Epstein and Bannon are supposed to have said only becomes interesting once I know how Wolff is supposed to have learned about it.
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Old 13th September 2021, 05:49 PM   #1247
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
I thought that this was interesting. Bit of a grain of salt, due to the source (Michael Wolff).
Quote:
Jeffrey Epstein gave a series of interviews on film in 2019 in which his interviewer said the financier and convicted sex trafficker was “engaging, not threatening … [not] at all creepy … a sympathetic figure”.

"Villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who cloak themselves in good deeds are well camouflaged"
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Old 30th October 2021, 11:34 AM   #1248
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Ghislaine Maxwell's brother says the DOJ went after her because Bill Barr was embarrassed by Jeffrey Epstein's death

https://www.insider.com/ghislaine-ma...-death-2021-10

Quote:
  • Ghislaine Maxwell's brother is defending her ahead of her sex trafficking trial.
  • In an interview with Insider, Ian Maxwell blamed his sister's incarceration on Trump's Attorney General Bill Barr.
  • Barr went after Ghislaine because he was embarrassed by Jeffrey Epstein's suicide on his watch, Maxwell says.
He also thinks she'll be found not guilty.
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Old 14th November 2021, 01:03 AM   #1249
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There was a quite interesting article in the i a few days ago, concerning her defense's approach.
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Old 14th November 2021, 01:56 AM   #1250
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Heh. For me, what Epstein and Bannon are supposed to have said only becomes interesting once I know how Wolff is supposed to have learned about it.
Wolff isn't exactly a name you can take to the bank.
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Old 24th November 2021, 04:41 PM   #1251
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The judge is allowing testimony from Elizabeth Loftus and another expert on how false memories can be created.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...al-2021-11-22/
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Old 24th November 2021, 05:56 PM   #1252
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The judge is allowing testimony from Elizabeth Loftus and another expert on how false memories can be created.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...al-2021-11-22/

And that's absolutely fair and correct: psychologists are now well aware of the phenomenon of false memory, so it's right that the court should be made aware of it too (it's still something that many laypeople aren't really all that aware of - there's a tendency to think that in these memory-critical situations, the person is either telling the truth or lying, without realising the third possibility: that the person is sincere but wrong).

Not that I suspect it'll make all that much difference to the outcome - there's just (apparently) far too much evidence, and far too many independent cross-corroborations.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:22 PM   #1253
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
And that's absolutely fair and correct: psychologists are now well aware of the phenomenon of false memory, so it's right that the court should be made aware of it too (it's still something that many laypeople aren't really all that aware of - there's a tendency to think that in these memory-critical situations, the person is either telling the truth or lying, without realising the third possibility: that the person is sincere but wrong).

Not that I suspect it'll make all that much difference to the outcome - there's just (apparently) far too much evidence, and far too many independent cross-corroborations.
Indeed. False Memory really only applies in situations where a single, usually very young alleged victim makes accusations against a single, alleged perpetrator, and only in very specific and peculiar circumstances. When several different people are making similar allegations, false memory is not in play.

Additionally, false memories rarely arise spontaneously or absent other influences, which usually means they have been coached.
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:18 AM   #1254
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
The judge is allowing testimony from Elizabeth Loftus and another expert on how false memories can be created.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-...al-2021-11-22/
I understand why they want to and false memories is something that exists and is often poorly understood. However, I don't think it should be allowed as a general point. If the defence wants to claim that victim X is suffering from false memories, they need to have an expert explain specifically why that victim's account is a false memory, not that it could be a false memory.
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Old 25th November 2021, 04:24 AM   #1255
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed. False Memory really only applies in situations where a single, usually very young alleged victim makes accusations against a single, alleged perpetrator, and only in very specific and peculiar circumstances. When several different people are making similar allegations, false memory is not in play.

Additionally, false memories rarely arise spontaneously or absent other influences, which usually means they have been coached.
Sorry but that's all very much wrong. We all have false memories, they "spontaneously" arise all the time. We now know much more about how memory works and why false memories are so prevalent.

ETA: This link has a good summary of "false memories".

".... The bottom line

False memories aren’t rare. Everyone has them. They range from small and trivial, like where you swear you put your keys last night, to significant, like how an accident happened or what you saw during a crime
..... "
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Old 25th November 2021, 11:18 AM   #1256
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Sorry but that's all very much wrong. We all have false memories, they "spontaneously" arise all the time. We now know much more about how memory works and why false memories are so prevalen
......

Sure, we all get that memory is imperfect. We see and experience things from our unique perspective, and we tend to fill in the blanks if we don't fully understand something, although I would say false memory and just plain failed memory ("where did I leave my keys?") are not the same. But that's far different from claiming that adult women won't remember whether they were raped or molested as teenage girls, or will manufacture a false accusation. If Maxwell's defense is that her multiple accusers are all lying, deliberately or because of "false memory," it's hard to believe it will go far with a jury.

And Loftus can only testify generally about the concept. She hasn't examined the accusers and has no direct knowledge of the case. After debunking a lot of the crazy satanic cult claims from the '80s, she has apparently made a career of impugning eyewitness testimony in criminal trials, including supporting O.J. Simpson, Ted Bundy(!) and Michael Jackson. Sometimes witnesses are wrong. But they are often right, too, especially when they know the parties involved and when they themselves are the victims.

She also has what some might consider a peculiar perspective.
Quote:
"When working on legal cases, in the end I can't say the abuse didn't happen. I can only say if these memories are false, here's how they may have developed. And I have this history--going way back-of worrying about the falsely accused. If there's one question I have about myself, one puzzle, it's that history." She has always worried about unfair punishment and has accepted almost every death penalty case offered. Her schedule is packed with flights to various cities to participate in court cases.

Scratch the surface and you discover how skeptical she is about the view of sexual abuse as the root of life-long trauma: she herself was molested by a baby-sitter when she was six and shrugs it off. "It's not that big a deal," she says candidly. When I mention award-winning poet Michael O'Ryan's recent memoir--in which he describes his childhood molestation as the cause of a tragic life centered around sexual addiction, which psychotherapy only belatedly began to heal--she gently scoffs and suggests that O'Ryan's therapy itself may have helped him create a revisionist view of his life, in which all of his troubles were traceable to that early experience.
[From 1996]https://staff.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/psytoday.htm

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Old 25th November 2021, 11:59 AM   #1257
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What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:17 PM   #1258
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.

Ultimately, it will come down to what the court believes is - or is not - based in reason.

Suppose there were a (hypothetical) case with a single 32-yr-old woman saying she was (for instance) raped by Mr X when she was 14, then any court would be dangerously (= appealably or reversibly) wrong to dismiss attempts by the defence to introduce testimony from a false-memory expert. And the court would be tasked with deciding whether it was a possibility based in reason that this woman's memory of the event had been falsely implanted. If literally all there was was the woman's claim, it might actually be difficult for the court to convict the man: after all, in order to do so, the court would have to effectively conclude that there was a zero chance that this woman was undergoing false-memory syndrome.

But if, say, there was other corroborating evidence (eg credit card receipts, diary entries by her, testimony from friends she'd told about it at the time, etc), then it's likely that the court would be able to safely dismiss the possibility of this being a false-memory situation, and would convict.


In the Maxwell case, I think what we'll see in trial is that there's a whole heap of corroborating and self-reinforcing evidence/testimony. And as in my previous paragraph above, I think therefore that the weight of evidence will allow the court to conclude with safety that at least some (if not all) of the victims were remembering real events rather than false memories. Thus will the testimony of Loftus end up being (IMO) of no real value to the defence in any event.

(But as I said in a previous post: I completely agree that Loftus should be heard. Had the court dismissed this defence request, it could - probably would - have caused significant problems to the safety of any convictions, and might very well have ultimately resulted in retrials)
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:29 PM   #1259
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.

True, but what Darat says is valid and pertinent too.

Even in non-trivial instances in the extremely recent past, rational adults can be frighteningly prone to false memory. There have been countless psychological studies where, for example, they've engineered it for a subject to be walking through a park (perhaps on their way to what they believe is the test they're going to be asked to take), when all of a sudden a man appears from nowhere, pushes a woman to the ground right in front of them, robs the woman, and runs off (in a scenario set up by the investigators, of course). When they ask the subjects for details about what they just witnessed - even just moments after the event - those subjects can a) get key details wrong, and b) be adamant that they're right (about these incorrect details). And it can be over such basic things as which direction the robber ran off in; or whether or not he was wearing a hat; or whether or not he pointed a handgun at the woman.

On top of that, it's long been known that in real-world scenarios, people can similarly get important (and basic) details wrong (while at the same time insisting that they are getting those details right). It happened on 9/11, it happened in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November 1963, it even happens all the time in the classic aphorism "everyone (who was alive at the time) knows where they were and what they were doing when they heard that Kennedy had been assassinated".
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Old 25th November 2021, 03:54 PM   #1260
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Yeah. Elizabeth Loftus is a well-recognized authority on this topic. I wonder to what extent it could backfire on Maxwell if Loftus gives a professional opinion that the testimony does not run a high risk of being a false memory.

In other related stuff, I noticed that some people I know on Facebook have started saying that the trial is being suppressed by the powers that be! Why, they ask, is the Rittenhouse trial splashed across all the media but nobody is talking about the ongoing Maxwell trial.

I pointed out that the Illuminati cunningly put the trial in the future which is why we don’t know what is going on. Needless to say, I had the last laugh.
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Old 25th November 2021, 07:33 PM   #1261
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. Elizabeth Loftus is a well-recognized authority on this topic. I wonder to what extent it could backfire on Maxwell if Loftus gives a professional opinion that the testimony does not run a high risk of being a false memory.
.....
There is no chance that the defense would hire her without knowing precisely how she will testify in support of their case, as she has hundreds of times before. The prosecution will likely try to minimize her testimony by emphasizing that she has no particular knowledge regarding this particular case.
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Old 25th November 2021, 07:41 PM   #1262
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
True, but what Darat says is valid and pertinent too.

Even in non-trivial instances in the extremely recent past, rational adults can be frighteningly prone to false memory. There have been countless psychological studies where, for example, they've engineered it for a subject to be walking through a park (perhaps on their way to what they believe is the test they're going to be asked to take), when all of a sudden a man appears from nowhere, pushes a woman to the ground right in front of them, robs the woman, and runs off (in a scenario set up by the investigators, of course).
......
Those studies have been well-publicized. But they are about brief exposures to confusing events, or about circumstances where someone is coached to believe or "remember" something that didn't happen or happened differently. But Maxwell's accusers knew her, they knew Epstein, and their experiences extended over months, even years. I don't seem how the two are comparable.

What is more likely is that women who felt shame and fear as teenage girls are realizing as adults that they were abused and assaulted. But that's a reinterpretation of events, not a new or different memory.
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Old 26th November 2021, 06:59 AM   #1263
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.
In the sense you are using "spontaneously" they very much do.
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Old 26th November 2021, 07:06 AM   #1264
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I understand why they want to and false memories is something that exists and is often poorly understood. However, I don't think it should be allowed as a general point. If the defence wants to claim that victim X is suffering from false memories, they need to have an expert explain specifically why that victim's account is a false memory, not that it could be a false memory.
I agree with you. Whilst every defendant has a right to defend themselves, I despise Maxwell for trying to bring in this type of nonsense, designed purely to convince the jury that an 'expert' [a psychologist in this case] can tell when a witness is lying er, has a 'false memory.
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Old 26th November 2021, 07:12 AM   #1265
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
What Bob001 said.

We aren't talking about girls having trivial memory failures about where they left their car keys. They are making accusations of being repeatedly raped, sexually assaulted and/or sex-trafficked by people they knew personally. Those kinds of memories, if they are false, do not arise spontaneously - they would have to be coached in much the same way the children and young people at the centre of the 1980s Satanic Panic were coached into "remembering" things that never happened by clueless child psychologists using flawed techniques and planted suggestions. These girls have not woken up one morning and suddenly, falsely, remembered they were repeatedly raped, or repeatedly sex-trafficked over a period of months and years.
We do not even know if the satanic ritual claims were false. Small children are simply not believed. In face of no provable evidence, it doesn't mean it never happened.
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Old 26th November 2021, 07:33 AM   #1266
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We do not even know if the satanic ritual claims were false. Small children are simply not believed. In face of no provable evidence, it doesn't mean it never happened.
If anyone would like to discuss the Satanic Panic, they are welcome to start or resurrect a topic on it. Please don't do so here.
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Old 26th November 2021, 12:49 PM   #1267
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
In the sense you are using "spontaneously" they very much do.
Examples?
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Old 26th November 2021, 02:07 PM   #1268
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Examples?
Some in the article I linked to.
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Old 26th November 2021, 03:15 PM   #1269
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Yeah. Elizabeth Loftus is a well-recognized authority on this topic. I wonder to what extent it could backfire on Maxwell if Loftus gives a professional opinion that the testimony does not run a high risk of being a false memory.

In other related stuff, I noticed that some people I know on Facebook have started saying that the trial is being suppressed by the powers that be! Why, they ask, is the Rittenhouse trial splashed across all the media but nobody is talking about the ongoing Maxwell trial.

I pointed out that the Illuminati cunningly put the trial in the future which is why we don’t know what is going on. Needless to say, I had the last laugh.

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Old 26th November 2021, 03:23 PM   #1270
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agree with you. Whilst every defendant has a right to defend themselves, I despise Maxwell for trying to bring in this type of nonsense, designed purely to convince the jury that an 'expert' [a psychologist in this case] can tell when a witness is lying er, has a 'false memory.

No, you (rather predictably) misunderstand.

Firstly, false memory syndrome has repeatedly been shown to be a genuine phenomenon (contrary to your snipe at it by way of using inverted commas).

And secondly, there's a very important difference between a) lying and b) false memory syndrome. They're two entirely separate and different things. If a person is lying, it necessarily means that they know that what they're saying is false. But if a person has been afflicted by false memory syndrome, they genuinely believe they're being sincere and truthful.

If lie detectors were a fail-safe tool, liars would fail the test.... but people suffering from false memory syndrome would pass the test.
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Old 26th November 2021, 03:33 PM   #1271
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Those studies have been well-publicized. But they are about brief exposures to confusing events, or about circumstances where someone is coached to believe or "remember" something that didn't happen or happened differently. But Maxwell's accusers knew her, they knew Epstein, and their experiences extended over months, even years. I don't seem how the two are comparable.

Oh I fully agree that the two scenarios are very far apart, and that it far less likely to be behind the recollections of victims in the Maxwell case.

My example was merely intended to point out that, in a general sense, false memory syndrome is provably a genuine phenomenon in instances with much more gravity than "losing the car keys".

And the second intention of my post was to offer my opinion that 1) it's entirely fair and right that the defence should be allowed to call Loftus as an expert witness in the Maxwell trial, so that the court can at least assess the evidence/testimony in the light of Loftus' opinion; and 2) I'd go so far as to suggest that any convictions against Maxwell might be relatively easy for the defence to appeal if an expert in false memory syndrome were to have been prevented from appearing in court.



Quote:
What is more likely is that women who felt shame and fear as teenage girls are realizing as adults that they were abused and assaulted. But that's a reinterpretation of events, not a new or different memory.

I fully agree with everything you've written here. And I did say in my earlier post on this matter that IMO the court would reject any notions of false memory syndrome in this trial, for the reason you've given here plus the sheer number of women who've come forward with accusations against Maxwell.
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Old 26th November 2021, 08:17 PM   #1272
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I fully agree with everything you've written here. And I did say in my earlier post on this matter that IMO the court would reject any notions of false memory syndrome in this trial, for the reason you've given here plus the sheer number of women who've come forward with accusations against Maxwell.
Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.
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Old 26th November 2021, 08:23 PM   #1273
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Some in the article I linked to.
OK

"An example of a false memory is believing you started the washing machine before you left for work, only to come home and find you didn’t."

Another example of a false memory is believing you were grounded for the first time for not washing dishes when you were 12, but your mom tells you it was because you were disrespectful to her — and it wasn’t the first time.

Seriouslly? You think these examples are anytihng like what is being discussed here? You think false memories of being repeatedly sex trafficed, and repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted over a period of years, could arise all by themselves? Really?

Quote:
False memories aren’t rare. Everyone has them. They range from small and trivial, like where you swear you put your keys last night, to significant, like how an accident happened or what you saw during a crime.
These are NOT false memories, these are minor cases of misremembering things that actually happened...

- you did leave your keys somewhere, just not where you thought you left them

- you did fill the washing machine, you just misremembering pressing the start button

- you were grounded when you were 12, you just got the reason wrong.

What is being discussed here is remembering things that Maxwell is trying to claim never happened; claiming that the victims are falsely remembering traumatic experiences that they have unintentionally made from whole cloth. You link does not contains any cases like this.

This is all complete and utter BS. There are ZERO examples I have ever heard of where a person has falsely remembered being repeatedly raped and sexually assaulted over a period of years, where it turned out that the memories the victim remembered were spontaneously remembered and not coached by some nefarious psychology quack.

ETA: Maxwell's defence team has not brought in Elizabeth Loftus to testify that the victims might have misremembered where they left their car keys
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Old 26th November 2021, 09:23 PM   #1274
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.

You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.
Quote:
In a 24-page second superseding indictment, prosecutors alleged that from 1994 to 2004, Maxwell “assisted, facilitated, and contributed” to Epstein’s abuse of minor girls by recruiting them, grooming them, and ultimately sexually abusing the victims herself.

The victims were as young as 14 years old when she and Epstein sexually abused them, prosecutors contend.

Both Epstein and Maxwell knew that some of the victims were minors, the prosecutors say. And as part of her alleged scheme, prosecutors say, Maxwell worked with Epstein to entice the minor victims to travel to his luxury residences across the globe.
https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxw...093050067.html

There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.
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Old 26th November 2021, 10:04 PM   #1275
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.

https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxw...093050067.html

Quote:
In a 24-page second superseding indictment, prosecutors alleged that from 1994 to 2004, Maxwell “assisted, facilitated, and contributed” to Epstein’s abuse of minor girls by recruiting them, grooming them, and ultimately sexually abusing the victims herself.
There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.
That is an absolute crapload of false memories (four victims over a period of ten years!!) that would have to have somehow spontaneously arisen, without anyone coaching them to "remember". The likelihood of that happening is microscopically tiny.
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Old 27th November 2021, 04:31 AM   #1276
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Originally Posted by Orphia Nay View Post
Surely higher numbers of complaints mean a higher likelihood of false memories in one or some of them.

I'm not implying mass hysteria, but just that ideas can be contagious.

Disclaimer: I'm not aware of how many complainants there are, but there look like a dozen or so after a brief look at Wikipedia.

I don't think we can make blanket statements about the truth of the memories in all cases.
The problem is all memories are 'constructed' and reconstructed*. It is easy to influence the detail of the memory. Accepting Epstein raped the girls. The detail of whether Maxwell was present of not is certainly influenceable. Perhaps someone walked in on the act and backed out again, was that Maxwell? There has been lots of discussion on the internet, it would certainly be possible that witnesses may have had contact with each other directly or indirectly and influenced each others memories. It is easy for police interviews to be directive. "Do you know who walked in on you whilst Epstein was raping you? Was it Maxwell who walked in? We know she did in other cases. Did you see Maxwell's face?" Coaching does not have to been conscious or intended for it to have happened. There has been a slip in the questioning from who was it? to it was Maxwell but can you confirm this?

Most miscarriages of justice are based on eye witness testimony. Certainly consistencies in details between witnesses who have had no contact even indirectly is supportive, but my guess is the defence will be looking for commonalities, do they have the same legal representatives, therapists, are they members of common face book groups even anonymously.

Remember that Maxwell is not being tried for Rape. The trial is on trafficking facilitation etc. So it is going to be lots of peripheral details, was it Maxwell who booked the plane tickets? Who asked her to book the plane tickets? Was she in the room? Did she help with make up? Did she advise on what dress to wear, what to pack? It is not going to be did she go down on you?

*Each time you recall the event you reconstruct the memory.

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Old 27th November 2021, 04:39 AM   #1277
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
That is an absolute crapload of false memories (four victims over a period of ten years!!) that would have to have somehow spontaneously arisen, without anyone coaching them to "remember". The likelihood of that happening is microscopically tiny.
Who has said all these claims are all false memories?
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:31 AM   #1278
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
No, you (rather predictably) misunderstand.

Firstly, false memory syndrome has repeatedly been shown to be a genuine phenomenon (contrary to your snipe at it by way of using inverted commas).

And secondly, there's a very important difference between a) lying and b) false memory syndrome. They're two entirely separate and different things. If a person is lying, it necessarily means that they know that what they're saying is false. But if a person has been afflicted by false memory syndrome, they genuinely believe they're being sincere and truthful.

If lie detectors were a fail-safe tool, liars would fail the test.... but people suffering from false memory syndrome would pass the test.
The issue of 'false memory' might be relevant in someone bringing a child sex abuse case many years later. Then Loftus' hypothesis holds very true that one fills in the missing gaps in retrospect, whilst trying to retrieve the ephemeral memories, possibly even from a time when you did not have the vocabulary to describe what exactly happened.

In the case of women aged between 14 to 17 I am not sure it is appropriate to label their testimonies as 'false memories'. Sound like a cynical attempt to get off the charges by appealing to the jury to dismiss the witness's testimonies as being unreliable, as with a child's or someone not quite mentis compos. That is insulting and disrespectful to the witness IMV.

There are perfectly adequate ways of weighing up evidence and the credibility of witnesses, without resorting to psychological skullduggery.
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:50 AM   #1279
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The issue of 'false memory' might be relevant in someone bringing a child sex abuse case many years later. Then Loftus' hypothesis holds very true that one fills in the missing gaps in retrospect, whilst trying to retrieve the ephemeral memories, possibly even from a time when you did not have the vocabulary to describe what exactly happened.

In the case of women aged between 14 to 17 I am not sure it is appropriate to label their testimonies as 'false memories'. Sound like a cynical attempt to get off the charges by appealing to the jury to dismiss the witness's testimonies as being unreliable, as with a child's or someone not quite mentis compos. That is insulting and disrespectful to the witness IMV.

There are perfectly adequate ways of weighing up evidence and the credibility of witnesses, without resorting to psychological skullduggery.

Then we can all be thankful that you're not a criminal-court judge.
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Old 27th November 2021, 06:51 AM   #1280
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
You could take a moment to educate yourself. The charges against Maxwell are based on reports by four adult women about what she and Epstein did to them as teenagers.

https://news.yahoo.com/ghislane-maxw...093050067.html

There's no doubt that Epstein engaged in extensive sex trafficking and abuse for many years, and Maxwell helped him. The question at hand is what she did or didn't do with regard to these four specific women. Federal prosecutors don't go to trial unless they have a strong case.

..or there has been a lot of publicity and sensationalism.
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