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Tags Ghislaine Maxwell , Jeffrey Epstein , sex trafficking

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Old 31st March 2021, 06:05 AM   #201
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
A person murdered can suffer no longer, a person sexually abused, raped, or sold into any form of slavery has to live with that for the rest of their life.
But they have a "rest of their life." A murder victim doesn't. I don't think you will find too many survivors of the most unspeakable crimes and atrocities who, once rescued, would say "I wish I had been killed." That's not to minimize their suffering. Some non-murder crimes certainly deserve life in prison.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:13 AM   #202
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We make this so much harder then it needs to be.

Person experienced X.
Is X worse than death?
Well are you suggesting we kill people who have experienced X to ease their suffering?
No?
Well then conversation over, a bunch of inevitable philosophical blustering aside.

None of this either excuses or has anything to do with Epstein and Gladwell running a slave trading operation.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:29 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Yup!



Indeed, that's the maximum, and what Maxwell did is about as bad as it gets as far as procuring minors for sex.

It wasn't just a few, it was dozens over a long period. She was the organizer of a sex-trafficking, sex slavery ring - she procured three girls a day for Epstein alone, girls as young as 13. If you aren't going to sentence the maximum for the worst examples in a given class of crime, what is the point of the maximum?

She also didn't just procure girls, she sexually assaulted them as well, under the guise of "training" them.

Here, have a read...if you have the stomach for it!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...effrey-epstein

Of course, she maybe could mitigate that if she rats out everyone she knows that "benefited" from Epstein's vile predilection for under-aged girls. That 35 years should absolutely be held over her head like the proverbial Sword of Damocles.


One should exercise a degree of caution though, when it comes to those depositions in the civil case.

There are, for example, many legitimate reasons why someone such as Maxwell might a) be substantively factually innocent of the claims made against her by Giuffre, and yet b) settle the case by paying off Giuffre. And of course there is also the potential for Giuffre to have magnified or even invented some or all of her claims, in order to try to maximise her payday.

Please note though that I am not saying I believe Maxwell is significantly non-culpable, nor that Giuffre made stuff up. What I am saying is that it's improper to refer to depositions like those as necessarily statements of fact or truth.

The only arena which has any chance of testing and validating Giuffre's claims (and others' claims), and consequently proving Maxwell's culpability, is a criminal trial.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:41 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She seems to be a very nasty and vile piece of work. If she is found guilty (which seems very likely) I hope she gets the maximum penalty (35 years) with no remission.

If she thinks she's being hard done by now, then she is going to be in for a very rude shock if she ends up somewhere like Danbury or Hazleton.


I take issue (in agreement with Darat) with the notion that anyone/everyone who's incarcerated as a convicted criminal - irrespective of the heinousness of their crimes - should have to live in substandard conditions and/or in fear of their personal safety.

The "punishment" part of modern jurisprudence has nothing to do with those sorts of things. By contrast, the punishment consists (or at least should consist) of 1) the conviction itself (and the lasting effect upon their future life, at least in the short term), 2) restriction of movement (for which prisons obviously fit the bill), and 3) restriction of personal choice (in prison, for example, prisoners can't just do whatever they want, eat/drink/smoke whatever they want, exercise whenever they want, wake up whenever they want, etc).

It's very unhelpful, reductive and regressive to observe the "lock 'em up and throw away the key!" approach being advocated and applauded. Don't get me wrong: if Maxwell is justly convicted of the crimes with which she's likely to end up being charged, I hope she gets a very long sentence of incarceration in a Federal prison. But at the same time, I hope that her living conditions - both physical and mental - are above the minimum threshold of human decency.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:46 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
It's very difficult to draw any straight lines between one crime and another, it's all a fudge really.

In this instance the sheer numbers of victims involved have to have an effect, don't they? If she'd done it once then 35 years might seem a little excessive. But 35 years is way less than a year per victim isn't it?


Absolutely correct. If it's proved in her criminal trial that she did indeed participate in the methodical planning of these offences over a very long time period, this will comprise an extremely large aggravation factor when it comes to sentencing. She will get many, many more years of incarceration that (for example) somebody who was convicted of similar offences carried out on a one-time unpremeditated basis.

And rightly so.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:49 AM   #206
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There is a factor of "making an example of them" in this to consider.

Now to be 100%, absolutely clear I agree completely that in civil societies responses to crimes (I find the whole punishment vs rehab vs this vs that debate to be mostly semantics) should never be cruel for the sake of being cruel.

But we don't want the next Maxwell to look at whatever sentence we give Maxwell and be able to run some sort of risk-reward cost benefit analysis and decide the risk is worth trying to do the same thing.

Responses to wrong doing sort of do have to just be... unpleasant or what's the point?
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:50 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The victims were not prostitutes. They were too young to consent, and the evidence is overwhelming that they were intimidated and confused by master predators. You are blaming the victims in the worst way.


Yes.

Perhaps Vixen would do well to consider, for example, the archetypal case of a middle-aged man pulling up in his car alongside a 14-year-old on her way home from school, and (after some type of quick negotiation) offering her £100 if she would masturbate him.

The principle is pretty much exactly the same.
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Old 31st March 2021, 06:56 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There is a factor of "making an example of them" in this to consider.

Now to be 100%, absolutely clear I agree completely that in civil societies responses to crimes (I find the whole punishment vs rehab vs this vs that debate to be mostly semantics) should never be cruel for the sake of being cruel.

But we don't want the next Maxwell to look at whatever sentence we give Maxwell and be able to run some sort of risk-reward cost benefit analysis and decide the risk is worth trying to do the same thing.

Responses to wrong doing sort of do have to just be... unpleasant or what's the point?

But being shut away from society - and away from friends and family aside from a pretty small number of visits per year - is unpleasant. Having to wear prison clothes, clean the prison, do whatever the prison officers tell you to do whenever they tell you to do it (including waking up, leaving your cell, exercising, going to the library, etc etc) is unpleasant. Being made to do menial work tasks in the prison is unpleasant.

And having to endure all of that for multiple decades is...... extremely unpleasant.


However, having to endure all of that while, at the same time, having to live in conditions which fall below the standards of human decency and/or living in fear of personal injury at the hands of other prisoners or prison officers, is unacceptable. Or at least it ought to be unacceptable in "westernised" nations in the 21st Century.
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Old 31st March 2021, 07:00 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
But being shut away from society - and away from friends and family aside from a pretty small number of visits per year - is unpleasant. Having to wear prison clothes, clean the prison, do whatever the prison officers tell you to do whenever they tell you to do it (including waking up, leaving your cell, exercising, going to the library, etc etc) is unpleasant. Being made to do menial work tasks in the prison is unpleasant.
Without going too far down a philosophical rabbit hole, Maxwell lived at the peak of high society for decades.

There are people who would trade that for living their last few years in a life that was only "unpleasant within normal parameters" so to speak.
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Old 31st March 2021, 08:54 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes.

Perhaps Vixen would do well to consider, for example, the archetypal case of a middle-aged man pulling up in his car alongside a 14-year-old on her way home from school, and (after some type of quick negotiation) offering her £100 if she would masturbate him.

The principle is pretty much exactly the same.
Not really. What you describe is a straightforward offer of a transaction, and most girls would run away. Epstein and Maxwell groomed these girls, sometimes for a long time, and used them to bring in other girls.

A closer analogy would be a sleazebag who goes up to a girl in a mall and says "You're so beautiful! You could be a model! Let me help you. Just come with me."
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Old 31st March 2021, 09:10 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
New suit says Epstein threatened to feed one of his victims to alligators.
Alligators are the new pigs, I guess.
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Old 31st March 2021, 10:18 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
....
However, having to endure all of that while, at the same time, having to live in conditions which fall below the standards of human decency and/or living in fear of personal injury at the hands of other prisoners or prison officers, is unacceptable. Or at least it ought to be unacceptable in "westernised" nations in the 21st Century.
As a non-violent prisoner, she will be sent to a medium-security facility at worst, and she could probably make a deal for minimum security. Such places are called Club Fed. There's no reason to think the entire U.S. federal prison system is "below the standards of human decency."
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:10 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
As a non-violent prisoner, she will be sent to a medium-security facility at worst, and she could probably make a deal for minimum security. Such places are called Club Fed. There's no reason to think the entire U.S. federal prison system is "below the standards of human decency."


Oh yes, I know that (fortunately) US Federal and State prison stock has been being upgraded and improved - including the building of many new prisons for all categories of offender - over the past 20 years or so,

And I wasn't in any way implying that Maxwell - if convicted - would actually be likely to be placed in substandard conditions. Nor was I implying that Federal (or State) prison stock is generally substandard.

Rather, my point was wholly related to any arguments that it would somehow be a fair or just outcome for Maxwell (if convicted) if she were to be placed in substandard prison conditions.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:32 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
How does it compare with the maximum sentence for murder?
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:42 PM   #215
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The victims were not prostitutes. They were too young to consent, and the evidence is overwhelming that they were intimidated and confused by master predators. You are blaming the victims in the worst way.
Bear in mind, when Virginia Guiffre met Prince Andrew, she was seventeen, a minor in the USA, a consenting adult in the UK. There is no way Maxwell could have flew her into the UK from the USA against her will. Guiffre herself admits that she too procured hundreds of women for Epstein, who preferred teenage girls but they were not exclusively minors, nd many did it for money.

Yes, it is highly traumatic for the young victims and the older ones to have unwanted men forcing themselves on them, and the shock and pain will live with some of them all of their lives.

However, whilst the press and the prosecutors are concentrating on the salacious sex crimes, IMV what about the extremely serious crime of blackmail (these were famous politicians and scientists being catered for by Epstein) and it is known there were tapes. Who was funding all this? If a foreign power then it all becomes a lot more sinister than some Madam grooming teenage girls. However, this belongs in the conspiracy thread, I am sure.
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Old 31st March 2021, 01:55 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Yes.

Perhaps Vixen would do well to consider, for example, the archetypal case of a middle-aged man pulling up in his car alongside a 14-year-old on her way home from school, and (after some type of quick negotiation) offering her £100 if she would masturbate him.

The principle is pretty much exactly the same.
Maxwell and Epstein preyed on the most vulnerable in society. Giuffre herself was a runaway when she first started work at Mar Largo. Many of his victims saw massaging Epstein as easy money and they in turn recruited their friends, in some kind of Sex Ponzi scheme. These poverty stricken girls in dysfunctional homes (many lived in trailers) went back time and again for the $200 dollar hand outs for twenty minutes 'work'. In this, Epstein and Maxwell were no better than the Asian grooming gangs in the North of England, except Epstein catered for the men at the very top of the establishment. The list of scientists who dined with Epstein reads like a who's who of nobel prize winners.

There were also rich girls, girls who wanted their pictures exhibited in galleries and sold, in exchange for expensive courses abroad, paid for by Epstein. There is the mystery of where Epstein got all his money from.

I am sure many of these girls will have been starstruck. Mick Jagger is pictured t one of these dinners.

I have read the attorney's book about the case, Brad Edwards, who gives a clear lucid account. However, as you say, it is his job to get these girls maximum compensation from an extremely rich Maxwell and the Epstein estate worth circa $500,000,000 but first he needs to get the convictions.

There is always the other side to the story. Maxwell claims she finished with Epstein way back about twenty years ago so there is an element of #metoo from the Weinstein trial and the other scandals coming to light.

There does need to be perspective.
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Old 31st March 2021, 02:11 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
Why are you comparing her possible sentence in America for trafficking etc, with murder sentences in Europe? Why are you not comparing with the maximum sentence for murder in America?
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Old 31st March 2021, 02:12 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Why are you comparing her possible sentence in America for trafficking etc, with murder sentences in Europe? Why are you not comparing with the maximum sentence for murder in America?
You think the death penalty is proportionate?
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Old 31st March 2021, 02:17 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
She hasn't been convicted yet, let alone sentenced. But she was part of a years-long criminal conspiracy that injured nobody-knows-how-many teenage girls. It wasn't one act and one victim. That's the basis for a lengthy sentence. There are people in the U.S. serving life sentences for non-violent drug offenses. Sex trafficking of children needs to be taken at least as seriously.
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Old 31st March 2021, 02:34 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
She hasn't been convicted yet, let alone sentenced. But she was part of a years-long criminal conspiracy that injured nobody-knows-how-many teenage girls. It wasn't one act and one victim. That's the basis for a lengthy sentence. There are people in the U.S. serving life sentences for non-violent drug offenses. Sex trafficking of children needs to be taken at least as seriously.
35 years? She is 60 (iirc) so it will virtually be life.

Quote:
A person convicted of second-degree murder in California will face a sentence of 15 years-to-life in prison, and thus must serve at least 15 years in prison before being eligible for parole. ... If a gun was used during the murder, the punishment will include an additional 10, 20, or 25 years to life prison sentence.
wiki (It doesn't mention New York)

Don't get me wrong, I do not feel sorry for her.
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Old 31st March 2021, 03:00 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
35 years? She is 60 (iirc) so it will virtually be life.
I don't see the problem.
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Old 31st March 2021, 03:01 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.

Aside from the fact that the only valid comparison in this instance is the comparison with US State and Federal sentence guidelines for murder.....

... you're also completely wrong in your presentation of sentencing structure across Europe. It's a sheer falsification to claim that "these days in Europe, life is just 12 years".

From what I know for certain wrt England & Wales sentencing guidelines, and from what I understand to be the case across Western Europe at least, 12 years is around the bare minimum time of imprisonment for murder. Most murderers get longer than that. Realise also that if someone is sentenced to, say, "Life, with a minimum of 16 years' imprisonment", this actually means two distinct things: 1) the person will first be considered for parole after 16 years' imprisonment - which in no way implies that the person will actually be granted parole*; and 2) even when the person is released from prison on parole, they will be "on licence" for the whole of the remainder of their lives - this means regular monitoring and home visits, and instant re-imprisonment if they commit even a minor offence.

So.........


* There are plenty of people in prison for murder in England & Wales, for example, who've remained in prison until long, long after their minimum tariff has passed - because each time they've applied for parole they've been turned down (on account of factors such as lack of remorse, lack of engagement with rehabilitation and education courses, poor discipline in prison, and so on).
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Old 31st March 2021, 03:07 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't see the problem.


Nor do I. If she's convicted on all of the forecast charges in a fair trial, then the sentencing judge* will know that she has engaged in a calculated, manipulative violation of dozens of underage girls, for the sexual gratification of her, Epstein and their.... *clients*. The negative impact on those girls and their life chances adds up to a very very large amount of wrong (and perhaps "evil" might be an appropriate word here).

If she's convicted of those crimes, she'll be entirely deserving of imprisonment until she's either a very old woman or a deceased woman.


* not sure whether there are juries involved in sentencing in federal trials.
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Old 31st March 2021, 11:42 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
I take issue (in agreement with Darat) with the notion that anyone/everyone who's incarcerated as a convicted criminal - irrespective of the heinousness of their crimes - should have to live in substandard conditions and/or in fear of their personal safety.
I never suggested this.

She comes across as an extreme example of white-privilege to the point of ridiculousness. She is used to living the high-life, and was finding remand very difficult (even though she was treated no differently to any other female prisoner on remand). All I did was observe that if she thought things were tough now, just wait till she ends up behind bars in a real women's federal big-house like Danbury.


Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Nor do I. If she's convicted on all of the forecast charges in a fair trial, then the sentencing judge* will know that she has engaged in a calculated, manipulative violation of dozens of underage girls, for the sexual gratification of her, Epstein and their.... *clients*. The negative impact on those girls and their life chances adds up to a very very large amount of wrong (and perhaps "evil" might be an appropriate word here).

If she's convicted of those crimes, she'll be entirely deserving of imprisonment until she's either a very old woman or a deceased woman.
Absolutely agree.
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Old 1st April 2021, 12:44 AM   #225
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OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
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Old 1st April 2021, 02:16 AM   #226
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Maybe she drifted into the role like a frog being boiled, never experienced the heat as she should have. Not a serial killer lusting for more satisfaction but surely finding the cash flowed freely again as had been her presumption in previous circumstance.
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Old 1st April 2021, 02:33 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally
Like any other criminal suspect under indictment.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
but is held
Like any other criminal suspect who is considered an extreme flight risk, and has both the means and the motive to flee if given a chance. This woman has fat offshore bank accounts, multiple passports and access to private jets that could take her anywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
in solitary confinement
For her own protection*

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
in a cell which is constantly lit
For her own protection*

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
under constant observation
For her own protection*

Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
If you can show me some constitutional right that is being violated here, please do so, otherwise, it sucks to be Maxwell.

* The conditions under which she is being held are very likely informed by what happened to Epstein. They really screwed the pooch on that one, and I don't believe they are willing to risk that happening again.
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Old 1st April 2021, 05:00 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.


I suspect they are extremely sensitive to the possibility of her committing suicide before any trial. To paraphrase Wilde: "to lose one of the two alleged masterminds before there's even a trial may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness."
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Old 1st April 2021, 05:50 AM   #229
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One looks like carelessness. Two looks like a plot.
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Old 1st April 2021, 06:22 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
She seems to be a very nasty and vile piece of work.
Indeed, and I wish her well...
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:03 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
These days in Europe, life is just twelve years. For example, if that suspected German guy were to be charged and convicted in Germany for the murder of Madeliene McCann, he would get just twelve years. At least Gordon Brown's UK government brought in the concept of 'whole life tariffs' or 'tariffs' to deal with the most heinous murderers.

So, for Maxwell to get 35 years for sex trafficking of minors seems disproportionate in comparison, but hey, that's America.
Life should be life. 35 years for what she did seems fair to me.
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:05 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You think the death penalty is proportionate?
Regardless of whether you agree with it, it's proportionate by default: a death for a death.
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Old 1st April 2021, 07:19 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
According to press reports, she is under video observation. It's not like somebody's sitting outside her cell. A prisoner in jail doesn't have much expectation of privacy. And if it's too bright for her taste, her lawyer can surely get her a comfortable sleep mask.
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Old 1st April 2021, 08:09 AM   #234
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Old 1st April 2021, 08:49 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
OTOH, she is currently innocent legally, but is held in solitary confinement, in a cell which is constantly lit, under constant observation. This would be regarded as being inhuman conditions in many countries even for a convicted felon. Even for the US I believe these conditions are limited to the worst suspects held in Guantanamo.
To be fair, Maxwell is the author of her own misfortune there for doing a bunk and going into hiding the first time round.
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Old 1st April 2021, 08:54 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by LondonJohn View Post
Aside from the fact that the only valid comparison in this instance is the comparison with US State and Federal sentence guidelines for murder.....

... you're also completely wrong in your presentation of sentencing structure across Europe. It's a sheer falsification to claim that "these days in Europe, life is just 12 years".

From what I know for certain wrt England & Wales sentencing guidelines, and from what I understand to be the case across Western Europe at least, 12 years is around the bare minimum time of imprisonment for murder. Most murderers get longer than that. Realise also that if someone is sentenced to, say, "Life, with a minimum of 16 years' imprisonment", this actually means two distinct things: 1) the person will first be considered for parole after 16 years' imprisonment - which in no way implies that the person will actually be granted parole*; and 2) even when the person is released from prison on parole, they will be "on licence" for the whole of the remainder of their lives - this means regular monitoring and home visits, and instant re-imprisonment if they commit even a minor offence.

So.........


* There are plenty of people in prison for murder in England & Wales, for example, who've remained in prison until long, long after their minimum tariff has passed - because each time they've applied for parole they've been turned down (on account of factors such as lack of remorse, lack of engagement with rehabilitation and education courses, poor discipline in prison, and so on).
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
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Old 1st April 2021, 08:56 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
To be fair, Maxwell is the author of her own misfortune there for doing a bunk and going into hiding the first time round.
To be fair, she's authored more than enough misfortune for others for one lifetime. I don't see any reason to give her back any of the years remaining in her own.
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Old 1st April 2021, 08:58 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
Jesus Christ. It's like you're signaling virtue to some alien race of misanthropes. Like those douchebags in The Three-Body Problem who actively work for the Centaurians to come destroy human civilization.
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Old 1st April 2021, 09:04 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Yes, the EU standard appears to be 12 years for murder, with up to three years added on if 'aggravated'. For example, included prolonged torture, use of a weapon, sexual assault, robbery, etc. However, the convict has a legal right to parole after two-thirds of the sentence has been served, assuming he or she hasn't committed further crimes whilst in jail.

So, 35 years for sex trafficking minors - who were not necessarily traumatised by it - seems a bit steep.
There were multiple crimes with multiple victims committed as part of a conspiracy over a period of years. And who are you to say that teenage girls weren't traumatized?

Last edited by Bob001; 1st April 2021 at 09:11 AM.
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Old 1st April 2021, 09:15 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
To be fair, she's authored more than enough misfortune for others for one lifetime. I don't see any reason to give her back any of the years remaining in her own.
While I doubt it could be used as a basis for actual sentencing, I think at least as a basis for our own attitude. I think the number of years one has gotten away with something should have a bearing on how sorry one is at the severity of the sentence.

I always wonder, for example, at the outpouring of oh-poor-old-man stuff we sometimes hear when an old torturer or concentration camp guard is hunted down. A 70 year deferral of sentence for your crimes? What a bargain. If it had been offered explicitly at the time, anyone would have signed on in blood.

Maxwell's crimes weren't quite so egregious, but she got away with them and lived high for a long time. I think she has no kick coming if she now regrets the high price.
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