IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Brexit

Reply
Old 7th February 2021, 07:53 PM   #361
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,468
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What you really mean is that I'm not a fantasist Europhile who thinks everything is wonderful whilst all around me everythings going up in flames.

As I don't share your delusion, you would be puzzled.
But you are deluded.

And meanwhile, there's been Black Wednesday, the Greek sovereign debt crisis, the Italian crisis, the Piigs crisis, imposed marketisations and I simply do not agree with the policies of the Commission.

Do I like the Tories and the way they have handled this ? NO.

But what was the alternative ?
Remaining part of an authoritarian corporatist clique that is deeply flawed unreformable and just does not work.

Open your eyes man.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Paxman in Brussels, a BBC documentary.
You don’t seem to be aware but we left the EU over a year ago.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th February 2021, 11:38 PM   #362
erwinl
Illuminator
 
erwinl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,013
The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.

Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.
__________________
Bow before your king
Member of the "Zombie Misheard Lyrics Support Group"
erwinl is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:35 AM   #363
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What I am doing is making a point to another poster who moronically accused me of xenophobia.

There are arguments for independence that are not all anti foreigner.

Yes, insults don't help. I frequently quote the LeaveHQ webpage as it helpfully does things like explain the problem with the WTO option etc. The author is quite well informed on trade etc and explains it clearly. He is also to mind hopelessly optimistic about good sense prevailing and people actually caring about facts over headlines.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:45 AM   #364
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The NHS could be dismantled outside the EU, but any government that did, would be out on it's ear, and it's successor would have a mandate to renationalise it.

No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normalityWP
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:51 AM   #365
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,589
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
No, it's a standard playbook used before. Starve X of funds so it can't perform. Use X's inability to perform as a justification for outsourcing and refuse more funds until X performs better . Let X wither on the vine. Creeping_normalityWP
IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 02:58 AM   #366
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
And also how the money flowing to the oursourcing companies is "commercially sensitive". David Allen Green on why all public contracts should be public domain linky
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 04:22 AM   #367
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
You don’t seem to be aware but we left the EU over a year ago.
I'm well aware of that.

We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.

As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 04:29 AM   #368
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 36,761
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.
Because those taking the contracts are only in it to milk as much money for their shareholders as possible.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 04:51 AM   #369
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
Both. The island as a whole seems set for years of mistrust, and that can't end well.
Indeed. The sheer incompetence of the NI "government" doesn't help. Personally I preferred sealing the border last year, many of the Covid cases were the result of cross-border passage, and then keeping it sealed.

Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
B
I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.
In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically).

However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 04:53 AM   #370
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The Irish are livid with the EU over the vaccine fiasco in which Ursula von der Leyen was willing to impose a hard border on vaccines, even Sinn Fein, the former political wing of the IRA were scathing in their criticism of the EU.

Right now, all we have to do is be fair and let the EU keep shooting itself in the foot and Ireland will turn on the EU.

One of the big problems with the EU is it's penchant for authoritarianism.
Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 04:56 AM   #371
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.
Yeah, a common refrain from the "I'm not a racist but" crowd.


Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.
Well the Turks got it worse, the sheer bigotry that was on display was disgusting.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 05:00 AM   #372
SezMe
post-pre-born
Moderator
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,178
Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean?
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 05:10 AM   #373
SezMe
post-pre-born
Moderator
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,178
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."
That's a really cheap shot. You ought to apologize.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 05:15 AM   #374
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
Interesting data in that link. What does "devolved government" mean?

Certain powers and responsibilities are transferred from central government to the local government, in this case the Northern Ireland Assembly. Northern_Ireland_AssemblyWP. Scotland and Wales also have devolved assemblies.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

Last edited by Wudang; 8th February 2021 at 05:51 AM.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 05:29 AM   #375
SezMe
post-pre-born
Moderator
 
SezMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Santa Barbara, CA
Posts: 25,178
Wudang, that link is broken...at least for me in the colonies.
SezMe is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 05:49 AM   #376
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
Aaagh! I was going to do a wiki link but used url tags instead. Fixed now
eta: It wasn't. Case sensitive. 3rd time lucky.
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.

Last edited by Wudang; 8th February 2021 at 05:51 AM.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 06:03 AM   #377
Airfix
Graduate Poster
 
Airfix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,047
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.
I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.

I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?
Airfix is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 06:53 AM   #378
malbui
Beauf
 
malbui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 3,048
Originally Posted by Sherkeu View Post
I have been looking into just how Switzerland manages while fully surrounded. Seems they developed agreements over the years that allow them to trade and move freely but not be a member at the same time. They go along for the most part but keep sovereign veto in their back pocket. I would need a lot more reading to understand how they make it work.
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
<snip>

In much the same way as they make the confederation work; trust, give-and-take, common sense and mutual respect between the cantons (and demi-cantons). It's something they're very good at (I lived there for a couple of years, fascinating place politically).

However the Swiss-EU relationship has evolved over decades and lacked the intrusive sense of British exceptionalism that created Brexit and the subsequent stupidities. The Swiss right-wing nationalism is far less influential on federal level policy and lacks the sheep like popular support that exists in the UK, as the referenda demonstrate.
* Declaration of interest: I work for the federal civil service.

The Swiss-EU relationship is complex and deeply unsatisfactory on many levels but it works because of Realpolitik and general commitment on both sides to make things work.

Switzerland needs very close ties with the EU because it is completely surrounded by EU member states and a very great proportion of its trade (especially stuff like milk) goes just over the border. The current structures aren't great (free movement of peoples but outside the Customs Union, for example, which gave Brexiters huge opportunities to lie through their teeth for several years about the realities of doing business with the country) but it's hard to see how there could be significant change unless it was at either extreme. The national referendum in February 2014 on immigration gave a wafer-thin victory to the anti-immigrationists, which caused utter panic in central government because of the guillotine clauses that meant that if CH unilaterally broke the free movement agreement, then all single market agreements would fall. It took a lot of politicking and tweaking to avoid that catastrophe.

At the other extreme there is the persistent question of actually joining the EU. This has always been rejected in the past but the subject shows ever starker divisions between the language communities: as a crude generalisation, the further you get from the south-western corner of the country, the less enthusiasm there is for membership. The cities, which are cosmopolitan and not exactly far from borders (Geneva stretches to the French border, from Basle you can walk into France and Germany) are generally in favour of ever closer links with the EU, while in Heidiland they look at you funny if your family hasn't lived there since the Rütlischwur in 1291.

TL/DR: it's complicated but we make it work because it has to work. Pragmatism and cold hard cash count for a lot around here.
__________________
"But Master! Does not the fire need water too? Does not the mountain need the storm? Does not your scrotum need kicking?"
malbui is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 06:58 AM   #379
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,468
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO this government might even manage to take it a stage further. The sudden realisation in a pandemic that the NHS is both beloved and useful may mean that they rush to secure more funds for it. This in turn means that the subsequent privatisation is even more lucrative for the cronies in receipt of the outsourcing contracts.

It never ceases to depress me how poorly the outsourced services seem to perform. Whether it's cleaning, nutrition or surgery, it seems that the quality of service plummets, the cost soars and the only way to get things back under control is to take things back in house.
If a private company claims it can offer the same service for a lot less the first question should always be “how”, unless they have some revolutionary and new service/process then they can’t*. Which is why we see time and time again these companies reneging on their contracts, coming back for more money or simply dropping the keys on the desk of the ministry and saying “we’re out of here”.


*At the absolute best all they will have done is found some way to externalise or rather shove some of their expenses onto the public purse that we all end up having to pick up anyway, usually at a much higher cost.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 06:59 AM   #380
Wudang
BOFH
 
Wudang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,864
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.

I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?

I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone".
__________________
"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott.
Wudang is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 06:59 AM   #381
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,468
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I'm well aware of that.

We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.

As a result it enabled Boris to be the man to "get Brexit done" and he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.
Nope - May had a parliamentary majority - only the Tories could have prevented us leaving.
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 07:36 AM   #382
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,225
A clear journalistic explanation about brexit:

Why we had to back Brexit: a Leave voter remembers the nightmare dystopia of 2016

FOOD shortages, a 68 per cent fall in exports, and the collapse of businesses across Britain. But however bad Brexit may seem, the alternative was worse. Roy Hobbs explains:

“People are quick to forget what it was like back then, in 2016. Migration was out of control. For every Brit working, there were four foreign criminals getting free NHS operations to laugh at us.

“Every day the Express would tell us how our taxes were being funnelled to so-called ‘deprived areas’ in Bulgaria and South Wales for infrastructure to improve people’s lives. Disgusting.

“You couldn’t ignore it. You only had to flick on the telly and Nigel Farage would be on Question Time explaining that the entire population of Turkey was on the march and would reach us any day. Then everyone in the audience would clap, proving it was true. Some nights I’d cry myself to sleep.

“And he still wasn’t prime minister, unfathomably. Instead we had an Eton-educated toff who didn’t understand the first thing about the lives of ordinary people. Can you see now why we had no choice?

What made me realise that we’d reached rock bottom was when I had my hip replacement and all the doctors were foreign, apart from approximately half of them. I knew there and then we had to get our independence back.

“So the next time someone moans that they’ve lost their job, can’t run their business, or can’t get life-saving surgery because the NHS is understaffed, just remind them that they should be thanking us.”

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...20210208205105
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 07:52 AM   #383
Captain_Swoop
Penultimate Amazing
 
Captain_Swoop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 36,761
To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective.
Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's.
Captain_Swoop is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:40 AM   #384
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 22,617
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Oh dear jeebus more deluded Brits predicting "Irexit".
Cop on.
Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option?

They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off.

Third world England.

At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus.

Well done Brexiteers, somehow.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:48 AM   #385
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year, mostly as a result of problems caused by Brexit, the Observer can reveal.

The dramatic drop in the volume of traffic carried on ferries and through the Channel tunnel has been reported to Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove by the Road Haulage Association after a survey of its international members. In a letter to Gove dated 1 February, the RHA’s chief executive, Richard Burnett, also told the minister he and his officials had repeatedly warned over several months of problems and called for measures to lessen difficulties – but had been largely ignored.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...8-since-brexit
Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:52 AM   #386
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
You're a leave voter. All leave voters are xenophobes. The "I've dated EU peeps" is just the 2021 version of "I have black friends but...."
Logical fallacy of the sweeping generalisation. Plenty of left-wing Labour voters - including Corbyn (married to a Spaniard) and Kate Hoy - were pro-Leave, for different reasons.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 08:59 AM   #387
Francesca R
Girl
 
Francesca R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: London EC1
Posts: 18,774
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
We could have left in March 2019, but Starmer and other extremists wouldn't allow it.
Starmer, and all of the Labour MPs (except five), and all the SNP, Libdem, Green MPs, and all the Democratic Unionists, and thirty four Tories inc Cash, Baker et al.

Strange recollection you have there.
Francesca R is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:03 AM   #388
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I didn't say Irexit, did I ?
You're being quite presumptive and prejudicial.
Rght......


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I'll concede that maybe I was being presumptive too, but going by Sinn Fein's criticism of the Commission's role in the vaccine fiasco, and the Taoiseach Micheal Martin, there is an anger which could bring down the Commission. You seem oblivious to that, are you ?
Bollocks. Unlike you I comprehend Irish politics, I know most of the players and I understand the relationship with the EU. There is no "anger which could bring down the Commission", you are utterly delusional. Support for the EU is still ~90%; there's more support for London leaving the UK than Ireland leaving the EU.....

And it's "Sinn Féin" and "Micheál Martin" do try and get it right.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:03 AM   #389
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
What we need is to subjugate a third of the planet and force them to buy our shoddy stuff.
Then we can claim it's the best in the world because a third of the world buys it while those that have any money buy their cars from Germany, watches from Switzerland and suits from Italy.
What is the UK good at? Rock music, folk music, any music, we could...oh wait...musicians now have to buy visas to tour and pay tax on their instruments on returning. back to the drawing board.

Textiles and the rag trade? Oh wait...that went to China decades ago...

Coal? What's that you say? Thatcher closed down all the mines? Dash...

Financial Services? Ah gotcha! City of London central finance hub of the world. What? They're all deserting for France?

Cadbury's/Bourneville? The Poles are sending this back to the UK? Nobody wants UK chocolate when they can get Belgian or Swiss...? Still, there is Cadbury's World where you can learn it was set up as part of a temperance movement to get people off the booze and drink cocoa instead. Gonna need that, Buddy, gonna need that!!!
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:04 AM   #390
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
I don't know what you're readiing but even the Express is covering Martin asking the UK to calm down and "dial down the tone".
I assume, from his past pronouncements, it's the Fail or similar nationalist rags. Certainly nothing realistic.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:08 AM   #391
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Odd. Why would anyone look at the Brexit fiasco and somehow think it a good option?
Self-delusion? Racism? Abject stupidity? Nationalism?

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
They have toasted the fishermen, kicked services to touch, and are now dependant on imigration of brown people to prop up the NHS which they are about to sell off.

Third world England.

At least Scotland and Wales have some chance of getting out from the sinking ship. Norn Iron is already under the bus.

Well done Brexiteers, somehow.
Indeed.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

Last edited by catsmate; 8th February 2021 at 09:10 AM.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:08 AM   #392
The Don
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Don's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 32,589
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.
It's not because of Thing A that I ******-up, it's because of Thing B I completely *********-up
The Don is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:09 AM   #393
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Was he a leading light or remotely leading voice of the campaign ? NO
This is David Owen, remainer in the 1970's and 80's who quit Labour because it's manifesto commitment to leave the EEC, and co founded the SDP with Roy Jenkins.
YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Listen to him and consider what he has to say.

Voices like his influenced me.

I started paying attention to politics around the time PMQs were first broadcast on TV. I've paid attention ever since.

Back in 1990, when he was still an MP, he was a good orator.
I watched the Maastricht debates, and I watched as John Major forced it upon us without it being in the manifesto and without a referendum.

I watched as Tony Blair forced the Amsterdam and Nice treaties through, without manifesto commitments and without referendums.

I watched as James Goldsmith's referendum party and Alan Sked's UK Independence Party appeared.
I watched when Alan Sked quit after falling out with Nigel (Farage).

I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ?

Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT:

It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire.
Nobody wanted to join the European Union originally but now the UK has been in it for 47 years it is a retrograde step to try it wind the clock back to 1976. Economics evolves all the time. Time to wave goodbye to the past.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:11 AM   #394
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
The whole 'some of my best friends are from the EU' , aside, there was one thing, which I saw last summer and which amused me greatly.

Several trucks with large stickers on them proclaiming 'I will not transport to the UK'.

Invariably they were Polish trucks. They know they were singled out in the Brexit xenophobia and they don't like it at all.
What a bunch of ingrates, after we gave them a wonderful Christmas...















...at our new gleaming brand spanking new lorry park in Kent. (OK, so they had to pay, but it's the thought that counts.)
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:13 AM   #395
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Johnson explains that that is not due to Brexit but is due to Covid.
Right......

I suppose anyone who bought the Brexit lie might fall for BoJo's latest lie too.
However the UK's RHA and BPA disagree.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:16 AM   #396
Vixen
Penultimate Amazing
 
Vixen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 25,080
Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
To put the much heralded Albanian trade deal in to perspective.
Albania's population is about the same as Manchester's. It's entire GDP is roughly around 28% of Manchester's.
To put Elizabeth Truss' '64 new trade deals' into perspective, there used to be 114 IIRC.
__________________
Blott en dag, ett ögonblick i sänder,

vilken tröst, vad än som kommer på!
Vixen is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:43 AM   #397
Hlafordlaes
Disorder of Kilopi
 
Hlafordlaes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: State of Flux
Posts: 16,136
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
... I watched as Tony Blair proposed a European Union rapid reaction force, what the hell does a trading bloc need soldiers for ?
The initial raison d'etre of the precursor to the EU and the EEC, the ECSCWP, was to
Quote:
"make war not only unthinkable but materially impossible", which was to be achieved by regional integration, of which the ECSC was the first step
Laudable, and given the security provided by NATO (and the fact that the UK and France are nuclear powers), there does seem to be no logic to an independent force. However, alliances can change, the balance of power shift. Arguably, increasing US boldness following the collapse of the USSR has led to actions bordering on the reckless, even criminal. Peace in Western Europe, now including much of the East as well, increasingly may depend on Europeans alone. (2016 update: DJ Trump). The EU, representing 27 member states all located in Europe, may fairly consider itself a vehicle for creating a European force.

The problem is the big Bear to the East, which, given its 22 million dead in WWII, could hardly accept a Germany that is fully involved in building weapons. However, the smart money is on grooming future Russian leaders, such that there may be rapprochement, then perhaps even close cooperation in security matters, and more open trade ties. That is something few east of the Urals or west of Ireland wish to see, but it may be the solution to Europe's current weakness and Russia's chronic underdevelopment.

For some. Food for thought.

Quote:
Sorry if this upsets anyone, BUT: It is not racist to not want to be part of an empire.
Apparently we share neither dictionary nor encyclopedia.
__________________
His real name is Count Douchenozzle von Stenchfahrter und Lichtendicks. - shemp
Hlafordlaes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 09:44 AM   #398
Darat
Lackey
Administrator
 
Darat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: South East, UK
Posts: 100,468
Originally Posted by The Don View Post
It's not because of Thing A that I ******-up, it's because of Thing B I completely *********-up AS WELL
FTFY!
__________________
I wish I knew how to quit you
Darat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:33 AM   #399
RolandRat
Graduate Poster
 
RolandRat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1,373
Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
he got an 80 seat majority, because it's what most of the UK wants.
Garbage. The majority of people voted for parties that at least supported a second referendum.

Originally Posted by SezMe View Post
That's a really cheap shot. You ought to apologize.
No.
RolandRat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th February 2021, 11:40 AM   #400
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 25,949
Originally Posted by RolandRat View Post
Garbage. The majority of people voted for parties that at least supported a second referendum.
Some sort of democracy....
Perhaps the UK should utilise a more equitable form of voting?
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Non-USA & General Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:17 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.