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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:35 AM   #81
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Maybe not calling Brexiteers "rabid" would be a start.
Pre-judging people is never a good thing.

Let me explain my view of sovereignty.
Sovereignty is power, that power belongs to those who live here.
Including immigrants.

It is the power to democratically decide how we are governed.
It is something that needs working on.
We are not democratic enough.

I lost the vote in 2011 to replace First Past the Post with AV.

For me, the next challenge to make this country more democratic requires a vote on European style Proportional Representation, not whingey sulks about not being in the EU anymore.

That's what I want to campaign for.

Whatever concerns you may have about Brexiteers and the TPP, this Brexiteer is cool about the TPP, I don't have any hatred of foreigners.

All my adult life I have been motivated by trying to make politics more locally connected and democratic.

The greater the gap the more abstracted the political process and the more alienated the voter becomes.

That's my personal feeling on the matter.
That's why sovereignty is important to me.
...But haven't you lost your sovereignty by joining the TPP...?

After all, it is another trading bloc...just like <ahem!> the EU.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:37 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
I have never claimed that the Oxford / AZ vaccine is 100% British (whatever that means). AZ is a multinational Anglo-Swedish pharmaceutical company. You are creating a straw dog. You claimed the EU had funded the vaccine manufacturing capability in the UK. I asked you for evidence for this claim. You claim it, you should provide evidence to back your claim.

I provided EU documents saying that the EU supported vaccine manufacturing by 1) pre paying for vaccine and 2) providing loans (the EU term) from the EIB. Banks do not give grants.* I provided references to the fact that the UK government funded the UK manufacturing capability. Notably your highlighted section above does NOT refer to vaccine manufacturing.

The reason the EU wanted the UK factory regarded as EU was otherwise its product would be a biological product from a third country and would need to go through all the paperwork and customs restrictions we hear about blocking the travel of molluscs and bees. One would not want millions of vaccine doses going to waste because the customs paperwork was wrong or the factory had not been inspected by the EU pharma authorities etc. As a GMO the vaccine is particularly restricted.

* i would be very anxious if an insolvency practitioner thought banks gave out money as grants; a little hint, banks always want their money back - with interest.
While the documents and links you provided do say the UK funded the UK factory they do not say that the UK funded 100% of the UK factory. I've googled for it and there is nothing I can find definitive. I certainly read previously that the EU had contributed to funding UK capacity but I can't find anything definitive on that either.

I think it is worth bearing in mind that whether or not they funded the factory wouldn't automatically give anyone the right to any vaccine over and above what rights they have contractually. And if in fact AZ promised the UK priority on UK production for funding it then I think that was material and should have been disclosed to the EU as part of that contractual arrangement. We are shooting in the dark because AFAIK nobody has published the UK contract.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:44 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The EIB certainly appears to be able to finance projects outside the EU. I would have been surprised if it hadn't.

https://www.eib.org/attachments/coun...rt_2017_en.pdf
Certainly it has given grants to Cornwall and various other places needing regeneration in the UK.

A grant is not a loan.

The great thing about a grant is that it can be ring-fenced against taxes and there is no requirement to pay it back.

Sure, it comes out of EU taxpayers' money. A redistribution of wealth, if you like, for the common good.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:46 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Maybe not calling Brexiteers "rabid" would be a start.
Pre-judging people is never a good thing.
He didn't. He called rabid brexiteers rabid.

Quote:
Let me explain my view of sovereignty.
Sovereignty is power, that power belongs to those who live here.
Including immigrants.

It is the power to democratically decide how we are governed.
It is something that needs working on.
We are not democratic enough.

I lost the vote in 2011 to replace First Past the Post with AV.

For me, the next challenge to make this country more democratic requires a vote on European style Proportional Representation, not whingey sulks about not being in the EU anymore.

That's what I want to campaign for.

Whatever concerns you may have about Brexiteers and the TPP, this Brexiteer is cool about the TPP, I don't have any hatred of foreigners.
You may or may not. If you don't then you are not representative of the average Brexiteer.

Quote:
All my adult life I have been motivated by trying to make politics more locally connected and democratic.

The greater the gap the more abstracted the political process and the more alienated the voter becomes.

That's my personal feeling on the matter.
That's why sovereignty is important to me.
And how does letting someone in Malaysia set our trade rules make things more locally connected and democratic?

Incidentally, you say the TPP doesn't stop us having FTAs with other countries? I haven't read the text of the agreement but partnerships like that may well and usually do at least set up limitations on how we can trade with other countries. There may well be rules that say we can't offer someone else better terms or agreements on standards or rules that might make it difficult to sign an FTA with other people.

I would be worried about the terms of the TPP if China was to join. I'm not comfortable with allowing for example Vietnam to determine the terms on which the UK trades with China.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:46 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
...But haven't you lost your sovereignty by joining the TPP...?

After all, it is another trading bloc...just like <ahem!> the EU.
I know I haven't lost my sovereignty by joining the TPP, it isn't a political customs union, it doesn't stop us negotiating FTAs with others. It doesn't decide our rail policy or postal services policies, it doesn't set standards for VAT or impose a tampon tax.

The TPP doesn't decide what our agricultural policy should be, for example whether it should be subsidised or not.

There is a bloc that many of the TPP members are also members of, it's called the Cairns group.
Were we to join that, it would decide what our agricultural policy should be, and our agricultural policy would be unsubsidised.

Because it would remove democratic choice, I oppose joining the Cairns group.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:48 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Certainly it has given grants to Cornwall and various other places needing regeneration in the UK.

A grant is not a loan.

The great thing about a grant is that it can be ring-fenced against taxes and there is no requirement to pay it back.

Sure, it comes out of EU taxpayers' money. A redistribution of wealth, if you like, for the common good.
The UK was a net contributor to the EU, the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers.
The EU did not give us money, it gave us our own money back and told us how to spend it.

That decision abstracted democratic choice.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:50 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I would be worried about the terms of the TPP if China was to join.
As would I.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I'm not comfortable with allowing for example Vietnam to determine the terms on which the UK trades with China.
Nor am I.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:52 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I know I haven't lost my sovereignty by joining the TPP, it isn't a political customs union, it doesn't stop us negotiating FTAs with others. It doesn't decide our rail policy or postal services policies, it doesn't set standards for VAT or impose a tampon tax.

The TPP doesn't decide what our agricultural policy should be, for example whether it should be subsidised or not.

There is a bloc that many of the TPP members are also members of, it's called the Cairns group.
Were we to join that, it would decide what our agricultural policy should be, and our agricultural policy would be unsubsidised.

Because it would remove democratic choice, I oppose joining the Cairns group.

If the UK is now going to be flooded with cheap goods made out of cheap material produced by cheap labour in China, Vietnam, Mexico and goodness knows what other 'Emerging Economy' BRIC country, how does that return manufacturing and full employment back to the UK?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:54 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor to the EU, the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers.
The EU did not give us money, it gave us our own money back and told us how to spend it.

That decision abstracted democratic choice.
SOME of the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers. You talk as if we were the only ones making a contribution.

It abstracted democratic choice??? Unlike the Tories deciding to spend the money with their mates and in the parts of the country that vote Tory? That democratic choice? Of course those parts of the country have a democratic choice to not vote Tory and then be ignored anyway. I guess they also have a democratic choice to leave the UK? Oh no the Tories won't allow them that either.

EU funding has done a hell of a lot for the neglected parts of the UK that the Tories couldn't give a **** about. If you think allowing Boris to decide how money is spent rather than the EU has helped anyone in the UK other than Boris's mates then you are hopelessly naive at best.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 04:54 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
As would I.


Nor am I.
You do realise that China was mooted to be joining?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:00 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
If the UK is now going to be flooded with cheap goods made out of cheap material produced by cheap labour in China, Vietnam, Mexico and goodness knows what other 'Emerging Economy' BRIC country, how does that return manufacturing and full employment back to the UK?
It's worth noting why so many free marketeers like these kind of partnerships and want FTAs without all the associated 'political' overlays.

Because they can be an exploiters charter to have things made in the cheapest locations with the lowest standards and then shipped into the UK.

It's modern day colonialism and that's why they DON'T want to have freedom of movement from the countries that they exploit. They want those people trapped there in slave wage economies. They don't want people setting standards and policies that protect workers and the environment or anything else.

And people like Airfix buy into this for reasons known only to themselves.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:21 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And how does letting someone in Malaysia set our trade rules make things more locally connected and democratic?
I’ll have you know I’d probably be quite good at setting trade rules. Right now Malaysia hasn’t ratified so won’t be involved in changing any rules for a while.

Farage came out against the TPP when Trump was removing the US from it. I haven’t seen what he’s said on CPTPP as a stimulus for post-Brexit trade, though.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
I know I haven't lost my sovereignty by joining the TPP, it isn't a political customs union, it doesn't stop us negotiating FTAs with others. It doesn't decide our rail policy or postal services policies, it doesn't set standards for VAT or impose a tampon tax.
That’s selective. It does set rules on certain things and if the UK signs up to those rules, determined by signatories without any UK input (say, without a referendum) then some people will feel we have lost ‘sovereignty’. Some of the rules it sets might be seen as good, such as those on labour laws. But they’re still rules.

Quote:
The TPP doesn't decide what our agricultural policy should be, for example whether it should be subsidised or not.
A case in point. CPTPP does actually set rules on subsidy, specifically agricultural export subsidy.

Originally Posted by CPTPP Article 2.21.2
No Party shall adopt or maintain any export subsidy on any agricultural good destined for the territory of another Party.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:29 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You do realise that China was mooted to be joining?
I do now.

I hope that does not happen.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:29 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
SOME of the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers. You talk as if we were the only ones making a contribution.

It abstracted democratic choice??? Unlike the Tories deciding to spend the money with their mates and in the parts of the country that vote Tory? That democratic choice? Of course those parts of the country have a democratic choice to not vote Tory and then be ignored anyway. I guess they also have a democratic choice to leave the UK? Oh no the Tories won't allow them that either.

EU funding has done a hell of a lot for the neglected parts of the UK that the Tories couldn't give a **** about. If you think allowing Boris to decide how money is spent rather than the EU has helped anyone in the UK other than Boris's mates then you are hopelessly naive at best.

My point to a Brexiteer when stopped in the street during the referendum campaign. When I pointed out all the things locally that had been subsidised or paid for by the EU, his response was that after leaving we'd have all that money so it would still be used to subsidise / pay for such things. Really, a Tory Govt is going to pay for infrastructure re-generation in the South Wales valleys? Not a chance - it'll go to the leafy suburbs of England, or more likely, tax cuts for the rich.

His next argument was that in that case we needed to elect a Labour Govt so I told him history, the gullibility of the British public and the ongoing ineptitude of the Labour party itself were a bit against us there.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:38 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's worth noting why so many free marketeers like these kind of partnerships and want FTAs without all the associated 'political' overlays.
Those political overlays from the EU included the CAP, the CFP, regulatory fees, railway marketisation demands etc.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Because they can be an exploiters charter to have things made in the cheapest locations with the lowest standards and then shipped into the UK.
We don't require FTAs in order for disgusting exploitation to take place. That was happening anyway, look how many mobile phones are made in China for example.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's modern day colonialism and that's why they DON'T want to have freedom of movement from the countries that they exploit.
We had freedom of movement from Eastern Europe whilst exploiting Eastern Europe.
At the same time there were factory closures all over the place.

So your argument is a bit illogical.

An underclass were created here, some of whom ran out of money, ended up homeless and living on barbequed rats.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/...rough-sleepers

Are you so myopic as to only see EU good, alternatives bad ?

Free movement, is discriminatory migration based on where someone comes from. It does not take into account economic means to cope, it does not take into account character, qualifications or communication skills.

It can set some people up to fail.

I have nothing against the foreigners coming, working, living in this country, nothing at all.
But it's not racist to advocate a system that does not set people up to fail.

And it's ridiculous to see Brexiteers being called racist or xenophobic.
Do not fall prey to prejudice.

There is more to this than you currently understand.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:42 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
SOME of the EU taxpayers were British taxpayers. You talk as if we were the only ones making a contribution.
The UK was a net contributor.

It works thus:-
If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, you've given me £9.
I haven't given you £11 I've repaid you YOUR £11.

It's not rocket science.

I find it strange that you do not understand at all when there's so much information available, including from the EU's own website.

Your point about the Tories is a strawman argument.
I do not like the Tories and did not vote for them.
I am not advocating being governed by them, that's something I seek to address at a future election.

Last edited by Airfix; 3rd February 2021 at 05:44 AM.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:53 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor.

It works thus:-
If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, you've given me £9.
I haven't given you £11 I've repaid you YOUR £11.

It's not rocket science.
.
It isn't rocket science but it is a bit more complicated than you make out. You will have seen many UK businesses complaining about difficulties since we left, similarly UK purchasers are paying extra.

We are looking at:-

If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, and we both save £30 we are both quids in.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:59 AM   #98
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Apologies if it’s been posted before. Interview with Philip Hammond on how he saw Brexit. I found it an interesting read. https://ukandeu.ac.uk/interview-pdf/?personid=42190

Quote:
When I became Foreign Secretary in 2014 I started to see immediately how, contrary to what both political parties had been telling the British people for years – and I had swallowed, along with most of the British public, that this
Page 8/41

European Union thing was something over there in Brussels that was being done to us poor, defenceless Brits, and all these things coming down the line were actually imposed on us by perfidious foreigners – actually the truth was slightly different. The European Union had been shaped, to a very significant extent, by British influence.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 05:59 AM   #99
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I was talking about the regional grants like those awarded to Cornwall using "EU" (our) money.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:02 AM   #100
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Those political overlays from the EU included the CAP, the CFP, regulatory fees, railway marketisation demands etc.
indeed they did. Because the project was about co-operation at a level above and beyond 'free trade' which is what the free marketeers didn't like.

Quote:
We don't require FTAs in order for disgusting exploitation to take place. That was happening anyway, look how many mobile phones are made in China for example.
We don't require them but they certainly help. Imagine how much greater the scale would be if everything was made in China and able to be imported without limitations?

Quote:
We had freedom of movement from Eastern Europe whilst exploiting Eastern Europe.
At the same time there were factory closures all over the place.
But if you look at Eastern Europe you will see the extent to which it has developed, wages risen and standard of life risen. And the free movement of people allowed those in Eastern Europe access to the well paid jobs in the rich Western European countries rather than being tied into low paid work at home.

Quote:

Free movement, is discriminatory migration based on where someone comes from. It does not take into account economic means to cope, it does not take into account character, qualifications or communication skills.

It can set some people up to fail.

I have nothing against the foreigners coming, working, living in this country, nothing at all.
But it's not racist to advocate a system that does not set people up to fail.
No it's quite the opposite. It puts someone in Poland on the same footing as someone from Portsmouth and allows the employer to judge character, qualifications and communication skills for the role.

Quote:
And it's ridiculous to see Brexiteers being called racist or xenophobic.
Do not fall prey to prejudice.

There is more to this than you currently understand.
It's not ridiculous to say that a large chunk of Brexiteers are exactly racist and xenophobic when that is what they are.

As for there being more than I currently understand I await eagerly for you to tell me something I am not aware of.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:06 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor.

It works thus:-
If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, you've given me £9.
I haven't given you £11 I've repaid you YOUR £11.

It's not rocket science.

I find it strange that you do not understand at all when there's so much information available, including from the EU's own website.

Your point about the Tories is a strawman argument.
I do not like the Tories and did not vote for them.
I am not advocating being governed by them, that's something I seek to address at a future election.
You do realise that other countries were net contributors too yes? And that the UK received a lot of things for that contribution?

I find it strange that you are Dunning Kreugering this to the extent that you are trying to suggest I am the one who doesn't understand.

The point about the Tories is that thanks to yourself and people like you instead of the EU deciding how those funds are spent the Tories get to decide. That's the REALITY. Whether you like it or not is neither here nor there. That's what is actually happening as a result of your vote.

Good luck with 'changing it at a future election' I think the Home Counties and rural England might have a surprise for you!
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:15 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
You do realise that other countries were net contributors too yes?
Some, not all and certainly not the grants you ascribe to the EU.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And that the UK received a lot of things for that contribution?
The rebate, which was mostly paid for by France.

Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
The point about the Tories is that thanks to yourself and people like you instead of the EU deciding how those funds are spent the Tories get to decide.
Only whilst they're in power.

And you do not realise that by not taking ownership of the situation and trying to constructively make the best of the new possibilities, too many of the pro EU side tried to stop Brexit your side put them there.

It was suggested by many a pro EU activist that Brexiteers were "thick", "ignorant", "didn't know what they voted for", or worse were "racist".

How the hell were your side going to win people over with tactics like that ?

I don't like the Tories, but as I say, they won't always be in power.

Get over your defeat and start being constructive.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:22 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
No it's quite the opposite. It puts someone in Poland on the same footing as someone from Portsmouth and allows the employer to judge character, qualifications and communication skills for the role. .
It really doesn't, because someone from Portsmouth, who has a home in Portsmouth, and can move back in with their parents if they're hard up, isn't on the same footing as someone from Poland.

And people from Poland have ended up homeless and dying on the street because of this crazy idealism.

The real world does not work the way you want it to.

Furthermore, with production costs being cheaper in Eastern Europe, and wages being cheaper in Eastern Europe, there were factory closures, like the Cadbury's Somerdale Factory. The Peugeot Ryton plant closed. Ford's car production here ended long before the referendum.

The very thing you'd hoped to avoid was happening all the time, within the EU itself.

And you saying Brexiteers are racist, is prejudiced and ignorant.

You are demonising people you don't even know.

Dunning Kruger territory Archie.

Last edited by Airfix; 3rd February 2021 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:26 AM   #104
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Some, not all and certainly not the grants you ascribe to the EU.
No idea what this means. try again.

Quote:
The rebate, which was mostly paid for by France.
And free access to the EU markets. No idea what your France comment means. Try again

Quote:
Only whilst they're in power.
Which they ALWAYS ******* are!

Quote:
And you do not realise that by not taking ownership of the situation and trying to constructively make the best of the new possibilities, too many of the pro EU side tried to stop Brexit your side put them there.
Can't parse this. The Tory government was put there by the people who voted Tory. Like they ALWAYS do.

Quote:
It was suggested by many a pro EU activist that Brexiteers were "thick", "ignorant", "didn't know what they voted for", or worse were "racist".
Which a lot of them are.

Quote:
How the hell were your side going to win people over with tactics like that ?
It's not a tactic, it's the truth.

Quote:
I don't like the Tories, but as I say, they won't always be in power.
The Home Counties and Rural England have a wake up call for you!

Quote:
Get over your defeat and start being constructive.
The Tories bellends you put in power are responsible for being constructive now. Not me

Last edited by Archie Gemmill Goal; 3rd February 2021 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:31 AM   #105
erwinl
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor.

It works thus:-
If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, you've given me £9.
I haven't given you £11 I've repaid you YOUR £11.

It's not rocket science.

I find it strange that you do not understand at all when there's so much information available, including from the EU's own website.

Your point about the Tories is a strawman argument.
I do not like the Tories and did not vote for them.
I am not advocating being governed by them, that's something I seek to address at a future election.
Is an organization like the EU (or for that matter any other like it) a zero sum game?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:32 AM   #106
Archie Gemmill Goal
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
It really doesn't, because someone from Portsmouth, who has a home in Portsmouth, and can move back in with their parents if they're hard up, isn't on the same footing as someone from Poland.
A 40 year old married man with 3 kids is going to move back in with his parents if he loses his job? Seriously?

And you think an employer is going to factor this in to their hiring decisions?

Quote:
And people from Poland have ended up homeless and dying on the street because of this crazy idealism.
People from the UK are homeless and dying on the streets of the UK right this second. What point are you trying to make?

Quote:
The real world does not work the way you want it to.
I'd say my view of the world is much more connected to reality than this guff coming from you

Quote:
Furthermore, with production costs being cheaper in Eastern Europe, and wages being cheaper in Eastern Europe, there were factory closures, like the Cadbury's Somerdale Factory. The Peugeot Ryton plant closed. Ford's car production here ended long before the referendum.

The very thing you'd hoped to avoid was happening all the time, within the EU itself.
What are you talking about? I never once denied that production costs in Eastern Europe were lower or that factories were being relocated. Quite the opposite I said that being in the EU helps those economies develop and over time those disparities start to even out because the people in Poland have to be employed to the same working standards as the people in the UK.

Quote:
And you saying Brexiteers are racist, is prejudiced and ignorant.
It's evidenced by what they say and do.

Quote:
You are demonising people you don't even know.
You think I don't know these people?

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Dunning Kruger territory Archie.
You don't know what that means either.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:34 AM   #107
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Erwinl, most FTAs don't cost more than a few million a year to be members of.
The EU was costing £9bn a year whilst the trade with it we did fell year on year from 54% of exports in 2000 to 43% of exports in 2016.

It was a declining market that at the same time provided more and more legislation.

The relationship wasn't working for me so I voted leave.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:38 AM   #108
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Archie, the Dunning Kruger scale is a scale of confidence and experience.
You have much confidence in your statements about Brexiteers, but not much experience of us at all.

You are prejudiced, blinded by hate and I've seen you resort to straw man arguments as well.

I do not pretend to be the font of all knowledge, but I studied the EU website, I studied laws and rules of the organisation, I made an effort to understand what it was I was looking at, and even at the ballot box, I paused and thought it over some more.

Do not pre judge people.
If you do, you become guilty of the same prejudice you accuse them of.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:40 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Erwinl, most FTAs don't cost more than a few million a year to be members of.
The EU was costing £9bn a year whilst the trade with it we did fell year on year from 54% of exports in 2000 to 43% of exports in 2016.

It was a declining market that at the same time provided more and more legislation.

The relationship wasn't working for me so I voted leave.
But the value of those exports went up by £100bn between 2000 and 2016.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:42 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by gypsyjackson View Post
But the value of those exports went up by £100bn between 2000 and 2016.
The value of our exports to the rest of the world went up even further, despite tariff and non tariff barriers.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 06:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Erwinl, most FTAs don't cost more than a few million a year to be members of.
The EU was costing £9bn a year whilst the trade with it we did fell year on year from 54% of exports in 2000 to 43% of exports in 2016.

It was a declining market that at the same time provided more and more legislation.

The relationship wasn't working for me so I voted leave.
Highlighted
Is that including or excluding services?

A nations economy is more than only the exports.

Edit: But I take it that you do see it as a zero sum game.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 07:00 AM   #112
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Including services.

And most of our trade is internal anyway, not intra EU.
................
Now let me explain something:
The UK voted to leave.
Parliament voted to honour the referendum and triggered Article 50, thus confirming that the referendum wasn't merely "advisory" as bad losers had tried to make out.

Then there was an election which the Tories won with their biggest number of votes since 1992, but because Labour had started to support leaving, the Tories fell short of a majority.

Then there was Labour's Keir Starmer trying to push for a second referendum.

Then there were the delays of 2019.
Then there was another election and this time the Tories got even more votes and an outright majority, with constituencies like Bolsover falling to the Tories.

I'd never imagined in my life that Dennis Skinner's seat would turn blue, but it did, all because there was no credible alternative in order to get out of the EU.

What will it take for you to just let go of the past and accept this situation, and work with us so we can get rid of the Tories ?

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Old 3rd February 2021, 07:12 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Including services.

And most of our trade is internal anyway, not intra EU.
................
Now let me explain something:
The UK voted to leave.
Parliament voted to honour the referendum and triggered Article 50, thus confirming that the referendum wasn't merely "advisory" as bad losers had tried to make out.

Then there was an election which the Tories won with their biggest number of votes since 1992, but because Labour had started to support leaving, the Tories fell short of a majority.

Then there was Labour's Keir Starmer trying to push for a second referendum.

Then there were the delays of 2019.
Then there was another election and this time the Tories got even more votes and an outright majority, with constituencies like Bolsover falling to the Tories.

I'd never imagined in my life that Dennis Skinner's seat would turn blue, but it did, all because there was no credible alternative in order to get out of the EU.

What will it take for you to just let go of the past and accept this situation, and work with us so we can get rid of the Tories ?
Uhm

I thought you didn't want to work with us anymore?
That was the entire purpose of the Brexit wasn't it?

And now you want EU civilians to help you in the UK politics in order to get rid of one of the UK's political parties?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 07:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
Uhm

I thought you didn't want to work with us anymore?
What made you think that wishing to be self governing meant not wanting to work with you, or to be friends ?

Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
That was the entire purpose of the Brexit wasn't it?
No, it really wasn't the entire purpose of Brexit.

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
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Old 3rd February 2021, 07:52 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What made you think that wishing to be self governing meant not wanting to work with you, or to be friends ?


No, it really wasn't the entire purpose of Brexit.

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
Seriously? Brexit was a good idea because Ulrika-ka-ka supported it and she's sort of foreign?

Also the phrase everyone form.... to... implies that most of the people between them were in agreement. Two of your examples are from the political class who were in mostly against Brexit, so it's disingenuous as well.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 07:56 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What made you think that wishing to be self governing meant not wanting to work with you, or to be friends ?


No, it really wasn't the entire purpose of Brexit.

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
Highlighted.

The reactions I got when I was at Tankfest, the day after the Brexit vote, might have something to do with it.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 08:37 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It's worth noting why so many free marketeers like these kind of partnerships and want FTAs without all the associated 'political' overlays.

Because they can be an exploiters charter to have things made in the cheapest locations with the lowest standards and then shipped into the UK.

It's modern day colonialism and that's why they DON'T want to have freedom of movement from the countries that they exploit. They want those people trapped there in slave wage economies. They don't want people setting standards and policies that protect workers and the environment or anything else.

And people like Airfix buy into this for reasons known only to themselves.
Exactly. And when ministers like Elizabeth Truss or Alex Johnson surrounded by Union Jacks foist all of this non-happy news on us all polished up like a brightly gleaming turd, people actually buy it. They seem impervious that Britain once had a thriving textiles industry in Lancashire - whole factories providing employment for entire towns - and making our own clothing, cushions, lace, blankets, you name it - and then it was all outsourced to cheapo-cheapo China and the whole lot closed down, as China only cost £0.50 in labour costs and raw materials, as opposed to the local equivalent cost of £2.50. Now China is emerging with a well-heeled middle class, who expect the same wages as us in the West - this is what Truss was alluding to when she trots out the old cliché that in ten years' time China will be on a par with the First World - is this really "Good News!" for Brits?

Sadly, the population is so in thrall to the government propaganda now on a par with PRAVDA so that BBC reporters dare not challenge anything the government says for fear of losing their £250K pa job (funded by us the taxpayers) and the corporation silenced by super-injunctions to gag them from reporting on 'Boris'' latest indiscretion under the guise of protecting a child.

Wake up, people, a trade deal with emerging economies is not good news. We are trading in a Merc for a Robin Reliant (surrounded by Union Jacks).
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Old 3rd February 2021, 08:45 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The UK was a net contributor.

It works thus:-
If you give me £20 and I give you £11 back, you've given me £9.
I haven't given you £11 I've repaid you YOUR £11.

<snip>
Nope. People throughout the UK and EU have each contributed a vanishingly minuscle sum of money and the lovely people of Cornwall can now go out and buy a delicious pasty with the money donated from us all.
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Old 3rd February 2021, 08:51 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Some, not all and certainly not the grants you ascribe to the EU.


The rebate, which was mostly paid for by France.


Only whilst they're in power.

And you do not realise that by not taking ownership of the situation and trying to constructively make the best of the new possibilities, too many of the pro EU side tried to stop Brexit your side put them there.

It was suggested by many a pro EU activist that Brexiteers were "thick", "ignorant", "didn't know what they voted for", or worse were "racist".

How the hell were your side going to win people over with tactics like that ?

I don't like the Tories, but as I say, they won't always be in power.

Get over your defeat and start being constructive.
If Brexiteers are not racist, why did Nigel Farage appeal to them with photoshopped pictures of long lines of refuges fleeing war, terrorism and famine? What was with the posters threatening "76,000,000 Turks are about to join the EU" (the hidden message = "all these Muslims").
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Old 3rd February 2021, 08:51 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What made you think that wishing to be self governing meant not wanting to work with you, or to be friends ?


No, it really wasn't the entire purpose of Brexit.

The point of Brexit is political independence.

Why do you think everyone from former MP Gisela Stewart to former SDP leader Lord David Owen and Swedish born television presenter Ulrika Jonsson were onboard with it ?
The major figures who were for Brexit seem to disagree with you and have made that disagreement a point of law. The likes of Johnson decided that they were fine with the EU deciding how we can move goods around within our own borders. How is that "political independence"? The only way I can see it is political independence is that we now have nothing to do with the politics of the EU so can't use political means to help shape how the EU determines what we can move around within our own borders.

Perhaps the expectations of Brexiters weren't as aligned as some thought?
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