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Old 6th February 2021, 05:43 AM   #241
Darat
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What we wanted was independence, and we have that.

What you wanted, was to protect the economy.
And that is understandable. It's understandable for you to have concerns.

There's still the chance to do more to protect the economy.
Can we stop fighting and try and work together to do that ?
Was this to me?
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:53 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
You're quibbling over legal semantics, anyone could see from a moral point of view it was impossible to ignore.
I mean it wasn't. Politicians lie about the stuff they want to do all the time.

Quote:
The extremists who tried to stop us leaving, marginalised the moderates who advocated compromises and deeper engagement with the European Union.
And those same moderates were marginalised by groups like the ERG who were living in some kind of fantasy land right up until the moment that it looked like they wouldn't.

Or they got cold feet in ensuring their bets against the UK would pay out massively for them.

Quote:
Leaving was necessary
Why was it necessary?

Quote:
...but so was compromise.
Probably. But to be honest, it's not the place for remain people to put forward compromises in leaving when it became quite clear that nobody actually knew what was voted for outside of the vague concept of "leaving the EU".

Quote:
I blame the ERG and the Stop Brexit extremists equally for that.
Why? The Remain people were never going to support Brexit, even after it passed. You aren't going to get compromise on that. The ERG wanted Brexit and through their refusals to compromise stymied the whole thing to get a pretty bad withdrawal agreement.

Quote:
Somewhere between the two opposing views, was a medium setting, a compromise that would have worked for everyone.
I mean there wasn't. This whole debacle was created to reverse the flow of votes from the Tories to UKIP and also to shut the loud minority of pro-Brexit people within the party. I honestly don't think David Cameron expected the vote to go the way it did, he was expecting Remain to win which would ideally shut up the loudmouths while also stopping or reversing the flow of votes back to the party.

His resignation after the vote threw a massive spanner in the works of the pro-Brexit side of the party, since they thought they could coast through all this unscathed because everything would be Cameron's fault if it went pear shaped.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
The point being Davis resigned because he wouldn't COMPROMISE.

May, sought COMPROMISE.
May sought compromise but she was handed a poisoned chalice when she became PM. She had the unenviable task of actually determining what kind of Brexit people actually voted for, when the correct answer was "all of them".

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What we wanted was independence, and we have that.
What kind of independence do you have now that you don't by being part of the EU?

Quote:
There's still the chance to do more to protect the economy.
Can we stop fighting and try and work together to do that ?
I think it's far too late for that. That discussion should have been had either after the referendum but before triggering Article 50, or better yet, before the vote at all, allowing the people to vote on the Brexit agreed to by parliament.

Now all that happens is that you have to work with the cards you've been dealt, and it's a rather bad hand.
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Last edited by Wildy; 6th February 2021 at 05:55 AM. Reason: Forgot a bit
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:57 AM   #243
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Once again, you're still trotting out the same failed arguments that you were trotting out before the referendum and which lost you the referendum, in the hope that things will be seen differently.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The UK is an independent sovereign state and has been for hundreds of years.
Correction, is independent again after 47 years in a customs union and political union that held sovereignty over internal laws, like our trade policy, like our agricultural policy, like our fisheries policy, like our industrial policy and our state aid policy.

We had NO democratic choice in those matters because it was set externally.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
We need to trade with the rest of the world
Obviously.
And not being a producer of things such as oranges there is no reason for us to levy tariffs on them.
Yet the EU imposed a tariff on things we do not make and did not need to charge for.

Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
The EU was such a trading bloc.
It's far more than a trading bloc (EFTA is a trading bloc).
It's a political union with an unelected policy making Commission and a Parliament.

At the time of the referendum 19 of the 28 Commissioners were right wing EuroTories.
Ours was Jonathan Hill, and his party lost the 2014 EU elections (coming 3rd).

With an elected Commission I would have been more sympathetic and would have considered staying, in order to reform.

But reform was tried and rebuffed over and over again.
It may have worked for you, it did not work for me.

Independence works for me, even if it does not work for you.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:00 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
What kind of independence do you have now that you don't by being part of the EU?
Independent trade policy, independent agricultural policy, a seat at the WTO, an independent state aid policy.

Imagine if we'd had to wait for permission from the Commission before we furloughed people?
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:00 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.
How about the government negotiated that to begin with?

It's more important to negotiate with Norway and get the deep sea boats back in to their waters.
Most of the Peterhead boats don't fish EU waters for example.

In the UK we eat white fish to the almost complete exclusion of everything else.
UK waters don't produce the white fish like Cod that we want, that's why we need access to the Norwegian waters.
Coastal and inshore boats and those fishing out in to the North Sea and the Channel do not catch much cod.
That's why the EU is such an important market for our fishermen.

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 6th February 2021 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:02 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Why was it necessary?
Ultimately you'd have seen UKIP grow and grow and one day enter government if the referendum hadn't been honoured.

Now they're a dead party.
This has killed them.

Be grateful.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:07 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How about the government negotiated that to begin with?
Agreed

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's more important to negotiate with Norway and get the deep sea boats back in to their waters.
Most of the Peterhead boats don't fish EU waters for example.
Fair point.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
In the UK we eat white fish to the almost complete exclusion of everything else.
UK waters don't produce the white fish like Cod that we want, that's why we need access to the Norwegian waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_cod


Our waters do produce cod, but it's complicated.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:47 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Independent trade policy, independent agricultural policy, a seat at the WTO, an independent state aid policy.
The first two basically boil down to "rules I don't like". I don't really get what you mean by "a seat at the WTO" since the UK was and is a member of the organisation.

Independent state aid is an interesting thing to complain about, especially when coupled with "independent agricultural policy". Or is it that subsidies are bad when it's in industries you don't care too much about, while they're good when you do?

Quote:
Imagine if we'd had to wait for permission from the Commission before we furloughed people?
Is that a thing that happened? And if so, can you provide a source?

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.
I don't see how pushing the EU for the same terms as Norwegian fishermen would get you access to Norway's fishing grounds.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Ultimately you'd have seen UKIP grow and grow and one day enter government if the referendum hadn't been honoured.

Now they're a dead party.
This has killed them.

Be grateful.
I was immediately reminded of this Spongebob clip:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I feel like that is probably one of the worst reasons to shoot yourself in the foot now, because you might shoot yourself in the foot later.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:54 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
...snip....

Is that a thing that happened? And if so, can you provide a source?

..snip...
Of course it wouldn’t have done - every country in the EU has made their own calls on how to support their economies. They have also made calls on how to do it at an EU level.

It’s akin to the nonsense about how “they” couldn’t shut their borders because they were in the EU that still comes up despite it being plastered all over our media last March and April how they were closing their borders! Even had stories about some towns which in effect straddle borders not being able to visit their neighbours.
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Old 6th February 2021, 06:58 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Correction, is independent again after 47 years in a customs union and political union that held sovereignty over internal laws, like our trade policy, like our agricultural policy, like our fisheries policy, like our industrial policy and our state aid policy.

We had NO democratic choice in those matters because it was set externally.
Apart from having MEPs and commissioners you mean?

Apart from being able to participate in drawing up and formulating policy and laws?

Now we have no say at all and will have to comply with whatever legislation is required to trade with EU countries.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:10 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Once again, you're still trotting out the same failed arguments that you were trotting out before the referendum and which lost you the referendum, in the hope that things will be seen differently.


Correction, is independent again after 47 years in a customs union and political union that held sovereignty over internal laws, like our trade policy, like our agricultural policy, like our fisheries policy, like our industrial policy and our state aid policy.

We had NO democratic choice in those matters because it was set externally.


Obviously.
And not being a producer of things such as oranges there is no reason for us to levy tariffs on them.
Yet the EU imposed a tariff on things we do not make and did not need to charge for.



It's far more than a trading bloc (EFTA is a trading bloc).
It's a political union with an unelected policy making Commission and a Parliament.

At the time of the referendum 19 of the 28 Commissioners were right wing EuroTories.
Ours was Jonathan Hill, and his party lost the 2014 EU elections (coming 3rd).

With an elected Commission I would have been more sympathetic and would have considered staying, in order to reform.

But reform was tried and rebuffed over and over again.
It may have worked for you, it did not work for me.

Independence works for me, even if it does not work for you.

Conformity to standards is good, right? When you buy electrical equipment, it's good to know it conforms to the same standards as the country you bought it from. You wouldn't want to buy a football which has been handsewn by a ten-year-old working 60 hour weeks in a sweatshop, with zero education?

Bully for the UK, it can now go back to Fahrenheit and pounds and ounces, yet still carry on with left-hand drive, the wrong plugs, its own currency and all the exceptional things it thinks makes for 'independence'. I like the old pound shillings and pence, and feet and inches as being a mathematician base-60 is more elegant to my mind that dreary old decimalisation.

But, you note, nobody in the EU forced the UK to use the EURO currency, nor drive on the right, nor even produce left-hand drive cars and it could have had navy blue passports any time it wanted, as several EU nations do.

IOW the UK never lost its independence. Why would any worker want to go back to the days of unlimited hours of work, near zero maternity leave and Dickensian conditions? As for immigrants, it is still going to need them!
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:12 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Independent trade policy, independent agricultural policy, a seat at the WTO, an independent state aid policy.

Imagine if we'd had to wait for permission from the Commission before we furloughed people?
Rubbish! Finland is an EU nation and its government quite independently took steps to call an Act of Emergency in March 2020 and impose Covid19 restrictions without having to ask anybody's permission at all.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:14 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
How about the government negotiated that to begin with?

It's more important to negotiate with Norway and get the deep sea boats back in to their waters.
Most of the Peterhead boats don't fish EU waters for example.

In the UK we eat white fish to the almost complete exclusion of everything else.
UK waters don't produce the white fish like Cod that we want, that's why we need access to the Norwegian waters.
Coastal and inshore boats and those fishing out in to the North Sea and the Channel do not catch much cod.
That's why the EU is such an important market for our fishermen.

Yes, we catch the fish to sell the fish...to the EU!
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:19 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
Why are we called 'Remoaners' when the 'winners' won't stop ******* complaining about what they won?
Because they need to create a strawman enemy to blame all the Brexit problems on.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:20 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
“Political negotiators “
And utterly incompetent ones. But then any competent ones opposed Brexit.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:26 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By pushing for them to have the same terms as Norwegian fishermen.

Would you agree to all the other elements of the EU-Norway trade agreement?
Contributing to the EU budget, adhering to EU standards, rules and laws, without influence over them? Acceptance of the Four Fundamental Freedoms?
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:28 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
But that was a deal the Brexit folk claimed they didn’t want...
Indeed even May blocked "Norway plus". But then Brexiteers tend to ignore inconvenient facts.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:31 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Once again, you're still trotting out the same failed arguments that you were trotting out before the referendum and which lost you the referendum, in the hope that things will be seen differently.
You mean "pointing out the unpleasant economic, political and social realities that are starting to appear"...

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Correction, is independent again after 47 years in a customs union
Utter bollocks. You seem to share the common Brexiteer delusion about "independence"
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:40 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
What we wanted was independence, and we have that.

What you wanted, was to protect the economy.
And that is understandable. It's understandable for you to have concerns.

There's still the chance to do more to protect the economy.
Can we stop fighting and try and work together to do that ?
You wanted independence. And brexit promised that
Others wanted to close the borders to scary brown people but remain in the trade deals. And brexit promised that
Others wanted to keep free movement for UK citizens but close the borders to scary brown people and leave the trade agreemenst. And brexit promised that.
Others wanted to keep all advantages without having to pay for them. And brexit promised that.
Others wanted 350M a day for the NHS. And brexit promised that.
Others wanted to burn all trade deals and replace them with ones which were better. And brexit promised that.
Others wanted free range to all EU fishing grounds, while keeping the EU out of british waters. And brexit promised that.
Others wanted to show they really won WW2 and thus never having to compromise with the wants of other EU countries (especially Germany). And brexit promised that.

At no point did anyone involved in brexit explain HOW these many, often contradictionary and often utterly impossible promises would be kept.
Nor is anyone involved in the campaigning ever going to take any form of responsibility when it turns out most promises will never occur.

If you want to trade internationally you will need to give up some 'independence'. Even the US and China need to, so the UK certainly will. But now you get to negotiate from a far worse position.
If you wish to keep using some EU facilities, you will have to keep paying them, but now without any input in how to calculate the costs.
Etc etc.

But it's ok, the ones that REALLY wanted brexit, the industrialists that would like to remove labour and standard protections will keep telling that all the negative side effects are due to the EU and remoaners, so all will be fine.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:42 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Apart from having MEPs and commissioners you mean?

Apart from being able to participate in drawing up and formulating policy and laws?

Now we have no say at all and will have to comply with whatever legislation is required to trade with EU countries.
LOL

That's funny.
Only the Commission can initiate legislation in the EU Parliament, and they aren't elected.

MEPs despite being elected cannot put forwards Private Members Bills.
They may only approve / amend / reject legislation, it's time consuming and messy.

MPs here put forwards a manifesto, public gets to see the policies before they vote, the party with the most MPs governs in accordance with that manifesto.

Democracy is more than electing politicians, it's picking policies.

How could we voters pick and influence policies in the EU when we couldn't elect Commissioners ?

It's hilarious to think that charade was viewed as democracy.
It really really wasn't and THAT is why I voted leave and would again, inspite of the difficulties of Johnson and his mates who are currently in government.

It could have been Labour, IF Labour had been willing to listen to the majority.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:47 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post

Would you agree to all the other elements of the EU-Norway trade agreement?
Contributing to the EU budget, adhering to EU standards, rules and laws, without influence over them? Acceptance of the Four Fundamental Freedoms?
You mean the full EEA agreement, rather than the fisheries agreement (which is a separate agreement)?

I advocated the public having a vote on that before we triggered Article 50.

And we voters never had influence over EU laws anyway.

EU membership is off the table.

There are many alternatives which are on the table.

On one extreme is WTO terms, on the other, a Turkish style customs union relationship.
Closer to the middle, the EEA agreement and Norway's fisheries treaty.
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:55 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
You mean "pointing out the unpleasant economic, political and social realities that are starting to appear"...
No, I mean whining, shrieking and failing to convince anyone on the other side not to be an independent self governing democracy and then sulking for years and years and years about it.

Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Utter bollocks. You seem to share the common Brexiteer delusion about "independence"
By your logic Scotland is a sovereign country, because it could in theory become independent.


Temper temper.
The delusion is yours.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:00 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
LOL

That's funny.
Only the Commission can initiate legislation in the EU Parliament, and they aren't elected.
They are nominated by the govt who are elected.

You didn't get to elect the PM, Chancellor or Home Secretary.
You didn't get to elect the Queen.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:09 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They are nominated by the govt who are elected.
Not democratic enough.
Governments are elected to preside over domestic matters not EU.

1994 EU elections won by Labour.
Commissioners (there were two at the time) were appointed by the government of John Major, who lost.
1999 EU elections won by Conservatives.
Commissioners appointed by Tony Blair.
2004 EU elections won by Conservatives.
Same thing.
2009 EU elections won by Conservatives.
Labour's Baroness Ashton made Commissioner.
2004 EU elections won by UKIP.
Conservatives Lord Jonathan Hill made Commissioner.

Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You didn't get to elect the PM, Chancellor or Home Secretary.
You didn't get to elect the Queen.
Maybe it's time we did get to elect the PM directly.
And we should definitely have a referendum on whether or not to keep or abolish the monarchy.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:26 AM   #265
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John Redwood Tweets

@johnredwood
Well done Cadbury. Great to hear production of the Dairy Milk bar is coming home to the U.K.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:26 AM   #266
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Cadbury is owned by Mondelez International.
An American multinational.
Guess how much tax they paid last year?

Europeans don't eat Cadbury's chocolate because compared it tastes like sweet plastic.
Their market is the UK.
They only moved out for cheaper production costs in Eastern Europe which BREXIT has negated

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 6th February 2021 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:30 AM   #267
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Like the owners of Rowntree, they dumped the workers in the UK for Poland and now they've ditched the Polish workers.
An appalling way to treat staff of any nationality.
If you want UK chocolate that actually tastes like chocolate Thorntons are the only ones left of any size.
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Old 6th February 2021, 08:43 AM   #268
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Ford ceased producing cars in the UK in about 2000, and vans in 2012.
That was a factor.

Terry's of York ceased production in 2006, production relocated out of the UK.
That was a factor.

Between 1988 and 1994 the Rowntree UK workforce was cut by 2000, Smarties production was relocated to Hamburg in 2006, another 645 jobs lost.

Dairy Box production was relocated to Spain, Black Magic to the Czech Republic. All to pay staff less.

Membership was supposed to create a level playing field, instead it created a migration of business out of the country to places where wages are lower.

The situation now, may not be great, but it wasn't great before either.

There were people dependent on food banks, the first of those food banks was opened by the Trussell trust in 2000.

I just want things to get better.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:09 AM   #269
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Here in Finland you'll see Lindt chocolate from Switzerland, Ritter Sports from Germany and After Eight Mints seem very popular, too, and very expensive compared to UK prices. We, of course, have our own world famous premium real chocolate by Fazer, and there is also the Panda brand. I don't recall seeing any Cadbury's brand chocolate despite Finns having a sweet tooth and at least two aisles of sweets and chocolates in every supermarket. I was sent a jumbo-sized bar of Cadbury's Dairy Milk for Christmas - I do miss my favourite, Cadbury's Whole Nut - it is 23% cocoa, Fair Trade but doesn't seem to indicate where it was made. It just says 'under licence Cadbury's Birmingham and gives Mondelez Ireland as the contact telephone number.

In the public interest of ISF I need to do a chocolate taste test. I have in front of me:
  • Cadbury's Dairy Milk
  • Fazer Domino
  • Fazer Lontoo Rae

Domino is a kind of biscuit like Oreo and Lontoo Rae means London Drops: 'London drops are oblong-shaped sweets about 2 cm long and 5 mm thick. They consist of a soft liquorice-flavoured core inside a hard, sugary aniseed-flavoured coating. They are coloured in pastel colours, coming in white, pale purple and pale yellow.'

These are mixed in with the chocolate to produce aforesaid chocolate bars.

Experiment

Aim: To test which chocolate tastes the best, British or Finnish formula.

Apparatus: a small china bowl with four squares each of Cadbury's Dairy Milk, Fazer's Domino and Lontoo Rae.

Method: place the broken up squares in the bowl. Dip in hand at random. Take out square without looking and place on tongue. Note taste, texture, consistency, umami factor and aftertaste.

Results:

Square one: Definitely had a crunch biscuit taste in there. Not a biscuit fan. Chocolate has a gummy kind of texture. The mixture of salt from the biscuit and the sugar from the chocolate and cocoa fat gives it some umami factor. Chocolate aftertaste.

Square two - same as square one

Square three: fat roundish, clearly Cadbury's Dairy Milk. Strangely devoid of any taste at all. Bland crumbly texture. Feint taste of chocolate. Vanilla aftertaste.

Square four: Chewy, definitely the Lontoo Rae. Nice licorice aftertaste. Almond flavoured crunchy shell delicious.

Squares Five - Twelve: can save for later

Conclusion: Winner is Lontoo Rae, followed by Domino with Cadbury's Dairy Milk close behind.

One suspects Cadbury's Dairy Milk would be defined as 'chocolate-flavoured confectionery' in the EU, rather than chocolate proper.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:11 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Like the owners of Rowntree, they dumped the workers in the UK for Poland and now they've ditched the Polish workers.
An appalling way to treat staff of any nationality.
If you want UK chocolate that actually tastes like chocolate Thorntons are the only ones left of any size.
I adore Thorntons. Always used to hop down to Cheapside for Champagne Truffles at lunch time.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:42 AM   #271
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In 2009 after a lot of effort, Cadbury's Dairy Milk became fair trade.

Then, Kraft took over, and undid all the hard work https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7451906.html
Not only that, they changed the recipe.

Real Dairy Milk, the stuff from my childhood and younger adult life, was rather good.

The stuff since the takeover, meh.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:44 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
In 2009 after a lot of effort, Cadbury's Dairy Milk became fair trade.

Then, Kraft took over, and undid all the hard work https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7451906.html
Not only that, they changed the recipe.

Real Dairy Milk, the stuff from my childhood and younger adult life, was rather good.

The stuff since the takeover, meh.
You are right. I have been really puzzled, as Dairy Milk used to be so delicious even until relatively recently.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:58 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
In 2009 after a lot of effort, Cadbury's Dairy Milk became fair trade.

Then, Kraft took over, and undid all the hard work https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a7451906.html
Not only that, they changed the recipe.

Real Dairy Milk, the stuff from my childhood and younger adult life, was rather good.

The stuff since the takeover, meh.
Rose tinted memories.

It barely qualifies as chocolate, but it is better than the Rowntree stuff. Yorkies were always terrible.
It's light years ahead of the US stuff.

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Old 6th February 2021, 10:06 AM   #274
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Fair enough, life would be boring if everyone liked the same things.
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Old 6th February 2021, 10:36 AM   #275
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I used to like a cream egg but they changed the filling a long time ago then they stopped using the 'dairy cream' chocolate for the outside when they were taken over as a cost saving measure.

Still like a Whisper now and again.
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Old 6th February 2021, 10:53 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
Fair enough, life would be boring if everyone liked the same things.
Totally aside - often heard folk say that but when you think about it it makes no sense at all.
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Old 6th February 2021, 02:47 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Cadbury is owned by Mondelez International.
An American multinational.
Guess how much tax they paid last year?

Europeans don't eat Cadbury's chocolate because compared it tastes like sweet plastic.
Their market is the UK.
They only moved out for cheaper production costs in Eastern Europe which BREXIT has negated
I wonder, is Cadbury worse or better than Polish production?
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:48 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
<snippage>
You really have no understanding to EU-Norways relations, how they operate and how they've been developed do you?
Just the usual repetitive, pathetic, Brexiter whines about "independence".

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
And we voters never had influence over EU laws anyway.
Sigh. Pathetic really.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
EU membership is off the table.
Nope. A few years and the UK will be begging to rejoin.

Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
There are many alternatives which are on the table.
Right..........


Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
On one extreme is WTO terms, on the other, a Turkish style customs union relationship.
Closer to the middle, the EEA agreement and Norway's fisheries treaty.
Oh good grief. Again, you make your ignorance of economics very obvious.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:49 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
They are nominated by the govt who are elected.

You didn't get to elect the PM, Chancellor or Home Secretary.
You didn't get to elect the Queen.
Brexiteers have had these inconvenient facts pointed out; they seem immune to such rational thought.
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:49 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Airfix View Post
By your logic Scotland is a sovereign country, because it could in theory become independent.
It will be, again, quite soon.
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