IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

Reply
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:11 AM   #361
Segnosaur
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Canada, eh?
Posts: 18,237
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
- Voter ID restrictions probably won't work against Republicans since they are the ones who are likely to have basic ID in the first place (like a driver's license.)
Part of the Republican plan isn't just requiring IDs, but then defining IDs in such a way as to eliminate those most likely to be used by Democrats - like public housing IDs, student IDs, and the like.

So just sneak in a proviso that a driver's license isn't adequate. Hell, they even give those to illegal aliens! How can something that an illegal alien! can so easily acquire serve as proof that you're a US citizen? Nonsense!

Let's go with only using passports as valid voter ID. That should ****-can a bunch of redneck votes.
I don't think using passports as the only form of acceptable ID would work for the democrats. Granted, a lot of rednecks may not have them, but a lot of students and poor people would also be missing them.
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer

I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu

We are Groot - Groot
Segnosaur is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:13 AM   #362
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,626
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
You'd think they'd instead realise that rather than break American democracy they could, you know, just change their platform.
That would require they move out of their alternative reality and back into the real world
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:15 AM   #363
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,656
It's simple.

Tie to something else. Oh what's that? You don't trust that I'm John Q. Public who lives on 1234 Main Street, Anytown USA when I cast my vote for the President? Well that's weird because I still have to file John Q. Public's of 1234 Main Street, Anytown USA's Federal Tax Return. So which is it? Do I get to vote or am I not paying taxes this year because it can't be both.

My ID isn't good enough to vote? Then it's not good enough to pay taxes, get called for Jury Duty, etc, etc.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov

Last edited by JoeMorgue; 23rd June 2021 at 11:16 AM.
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:23 AM   #364
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Ted "You can tell I'm lying because my mouth is moving" Cruz was spewing this pile of BS:

Fact check: Ted Cruz falsely claims Democrats' voting bill is intended to register millions of undocumented immigrants
Quote:
Republican Texas Sen. Ted Cruz claimed Tuesday that Democrats have intentionally "designed" their sweeping elections bill so that millions of undocumented immigrants would be registered to vote.

Cruz said at a Senate Rules Committee meeting that the Democratic bill that proposes major changes to voting, campaign finance and government ethics rules, known as the For the People Act, "directs" people "to break the law and register millions of people to vote who are not eligible to vote because they are not United States citizens." Cruz said the bill "would register millions of illegal aliens to vote" -- and he said "it is intended to do that" because Democrats think these immigrants are likely to vote for Democratic candidates.
Cruz also said the bill "automatically registers to vote anyone who interacts with the government," regardless of their immigration status.

Facts First: All of these Cruz claims are false. There is no basis for the claim that the bill is intended to register millions of undocumented immigrants to vote. The bill does propose an automatic voter registration system, but its text repeatedly makes clear that only US citizens would be eligible to be registered under the system. It is just not true that the bill would register anyone at all who interacts with the government or that the bill directs people to break the law to register noncitizens.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 23rd June 2021 at 11:25 AM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:24 AM   #365
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 35,656
There's no such thing as a lie in a world that has no facts.

That statement just became the truth to ~40% of the voter base whether we like it or not.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:24 AM   #366
Armitage72
Philosopher
 
Armitage72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6,327
Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Part of the Republican plan isn't just requiring IDs, but then defining IDs in such a way as to eliminate those most likely to be used by Democrats - like public housing IDs, student IDs, and the like.

Don't forget shutting down the locations that provide the only approved ID in areas that vote heavily Democrat.

"IDs can be obtained between the hours of 2:55 pm and 3:27 pm on the second Tuesday and third Thursday of each month."
Armitage72 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:38 AM   #367
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,633
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Yeah at this point you yank the icky-sticky core of a vague spiteful trolling based on nothing but contingency theory twinged obstructionism out of the GOP and what's left exactly?
That the rich should not pay taxes, and their should be no social services.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 12:35 PM   #368
Bob001
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: US of A
Posts: 14,248
Secret Service reveals that 900 officers and employees, including agents who protected Trump and Pence, had coronavirus.
Quote:
During the first year of the COVID-19 pandemic, 881 active Secret Service employees were diagnosed with the virus, according to government records obtained by CREW under the Freedom of Information Act.

The nearly 900 Secret Service agents who contracted the virus from March 1, 2020 to March 9, 2021 included 477 Special Agents, 249 members of the Uniformed Division, 131 working in Administrative, Professional, Technical Positions, 12 Investigative Protection Officers, and 12 Technical Security Investigators.
https://www.businessinsider.com/near...ds-2021-6?op=1
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tive-for-virus
Bob001 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 01:33 PM   #369
Skeptic Ginger
Nasty Woman
 
Skeptic Ginger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 90,626
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Ted "You can tell I'm lying because my mouth is moving" Cruz was spewing this pile of BS:

Fact check: Ted Cruz falsely claims Democrats' voting bill is intended to register millions of undocumented immigrants
That man has no shame.
Skeptic Ginger is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 02:10 PM   #370
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
What are you smoking?
It's happened in this country before. Democrats built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition. The saloon system was a massively corrupt ballot harvesting operation (and partially led to Prohibition). I believe the intentions of the Democratic party right now are pure. That is however, the result of having a healthy Republican party. The more sick the Republican party gets and the longer it stays that way, the less pure the Democrats will become. Tammany Hall wasn't really all that long ago.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 05:18 PM   #371
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
That man has no shame.
He's amoral just like Trump.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 05:26 PM   #372
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's happened in this country before. Democrats built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition. The saloon system was a massively corrupt ballot harvesting operation (and partially led to Prohibition). I believe the intentions of the Democratic party right now are pure. That is however, the result of having a healthy Republican party. The more sick the Republican party gets and the longer it stays that way, the less pure the Democrats will become. Tammany Hall wasn't really all that long ago.
You're forgetting one very critical fact: the Democratic Party of the saloon system era and Tammany Hall was not the party of today. This was before the two parties switched platforms. When you speak of the Dem Party of those days, you're essentially talking about the Republican party post 1960's.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 05:48 PM   #373
Ladewig
I lost an avatar bet.
 
Ladewig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 28,277
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Honestly, at present, that might actually be a bit harder than it sounds, given how badly they've painted themselves into a corner.
Why?

Not a day goes by without a Republican Congressvermin lying in front of reporters. Given the choice between awkwardly explaining how facts have lead them to a new position and simply lying about it, the a-holes will choose the latter.

We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.

We’ve always been in favor of [fill in the blank].

Gaslight! Bring me more gaslight.

ETA
Remember
this is the party that actually claimed that the Dems were trying to repeal the pre-existing clause and the Republicans were fighting to keep it
__________________
I lost an avatar bet to Doghouse Reilly.

Last edited by Ladewig; 23rd June 2021 at 05:50 PM.
Ladewig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 09:52 PM   #374
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,324
Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why?

Not a day goes by without a Republican Congressvermin lying in front of reporters. Given the choice between awkwardly explaining how facts have lead them to a new position and simply lying about it, the a-holes will choose the latter.

We’ve always been at war with Eastasia.

We’ve always been in favor of [fill in the blank].

Gaslight! Bring me more gaslight.

ETA
Remember
this is the party that actually claimed that the Dems were trying to repeal the pre-existing clause and the Republicans were fighting to keep it
I'm aware. You're focusing a bit too much on the politicians, though, for that part, and less on what's driving them, I think. Fox News, for example, may have been started with intent to support the Republican Party, but a number of Republican politicians have bemoaned how Fox's influence has increased to a rather remarkable degree as it raised its viewers with a steady and increasingly vicious diet of partisan bs. Before Fox, Limbaugh was already leaving his mark in similar ways. In the background, at last check, the Koch brothers and their allies - libertarians to the core - created a influence network to rival the Republican Party's and have used it with significant success to alter the Republican Party's priorities to be more to their liking. Elsewhere, the "Law and Order" counterpitch to the Civil Rights Movement led to the gravitation of authoritarians towards the Republican Party, to the point where they hold a disturbing amount of power in the party.

Yes, the politicians could easily just change their tune. However, they fear that they'll simply get replaced if they do so and with very good reason.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:00 PM   #375
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're forgetting one very critical fact: the Democratic Party of the saloon system era and Tammany Hall was not the party of today. This was before the two parties switched platforms. When you speak of the Dem Party of those days, you're essentially talking about the Republican party post 1960's.
It's totes adorbs that you faith faith in people.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd June 2021, 11:27 PM   #376
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's totes adorbs that you faith faith in people.
That's some persuasive counterargument you've presented there. Is that the best retort you can come up with when faced with historical fact that renders your point incorrect ?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2021, 03:31 PM   #377
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,425
Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Report: Trump asked Justice Dept. to shut down SNL and Jimmy Kimmel for being mean to him.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...om-teasing-him
Its another "Dictators 101" lesson he learned from Putin... use law enforcement to stop entertainers mocking him and cricitising him (Google "Pussy Riot").
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2021, 05:38 PM   #378
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
That's some persuasive counterargument you've presented there. Is that the best retort you can come up with when faced with historical fact that renders your point incorrect ?
What I can't understand is what about the history of human civilization makes you think I'm wrong. The race to the bottom is the key feature of human civilization. You're cute little wish that's we've moved past our history is nice but frankly, childishly naive.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2021, 06:44 PM   #379
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's happened in this country before. Democrats built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition. The saloon system was a massively corrupt ballot harvesting operation (and partially led to Prohibition). I believe the intentions of the Democratic party right now are pure. That is however, the result of having a healthy Republican party. The more sick the Republican party gets and the longer it stays that way, the less pure the Democrats will become. Tammany Hall wasn't really all that long ago.
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
You're forgetting one very critical fact: the Democratic Party of the saloon system era and Tammany Hall was not the party of today. This was before the two parties switched platforms. When you speak of the Dem Party of those days, you're essentially talking about the Republican party post 1960's.
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What I can't understand is what about the history of human civilization makes you think I'm wrong. The race to the bottom is the key feature of human civilization. You're cute little wish that's we've moved past our history is nice but frankly, childishly naive.
Oh, come on. You made a claim that the Democrats of the 19th century and early 20th century "built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition." When I pointed out a historical fact that the Democrat party of that time was not the same Dem party of today but more aligned with that of the Republicans of today you resort to the above nonsense that has nothing to do with what I said. I said your examples were WRONG and they were. Be an adult and just admit when you're wrong instead of defending a false statement. It won't kill you.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th June 2021, 06:52 PM   #380
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,425
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on. You made a claim that the Democrats of the 19th century and early 20th century "built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition." When I pointed out a historical fact that the Democrat party of that time was not the same Dem party of today but more aligned with that of the Republicans of today you resort to the above nonsense that has nothing to do with what I said. I said your examples were WRONG and they were. Be an adult and just admit when you're wrong instead of defending a false statement. It won't kill you.
Perhaps this will help Craig4 to understand

https://www.livescience.com/34241-de...platforms.html
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 01:40 AM   #381
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on. You made a claim that the Democrats of the 19th century and early 20th century "built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition." When I pointed out a historical fact that the Democrat party of that time was not the same Dem party of today but more aligned with that of the Republicans of today you resort to the above nonsense that has nothing to do with what I said. I said your examples were WRONG and they were. Be an adult and just admit when you're wrong instead of defending a false statement. It won't kill you.
Who cares what their platforms are? Are you really so naive as to think Democrats won't do the same thing to keep and stay in power in a world where Republicans rig the elections in their states? I'm talking about the tactics used to get into and stay in power. I doubt the party platform would change much even after they started to pass election laws and allow corrupt practices to stay in power.

Last edited by Craig4; 25th June 2021 at 01:56 AM.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 01:58 AM   #382
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps this will help Craig4 to understand

https://www.livescience.com/34241-de...platforms.html
What the hell does the platform have to do with anything? The platform has nothing to do with how parties get into and stay in power. If anything a virtuous platform will justify using election laws and corrupt practices to get and stay in power.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 06:33 AM   #383
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 29,677
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Who cares what their platforms are? Are you really so naive as to think Democrats won't do the same thing to keep and stay in power in a world where Republicans rig the elections in their states? I'm talking about the tactics used to get into and stay in power. I doubt the party platform would change much even after they started to pass election laws and allow corrupt practices to stay in power.
There already are, and long have been, states where the Democrats prevail, and where it is, indeed, important (at least to them) to keep their power. No doubt they use a great deal of energy to keep it that way, and it would not surprise me if a certain degree of corruption occurs as well. But even if it does, there is a fundamental difference between engaging in illegal activity and changing the law to make it legal. Do you find equivalent voter suppression laws in those states? As Republicans now work toward voter suppression laws, do we see similar efforts in those Democratic states? I have not seen this.

Speculating on what might happen loses some of its efficacy when it contradicts what actually is happening.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 06:44 AM   #384
Delvo
Дэлво Δελϝο דֶלְבֹֿ देल्वो
 
Delvo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: North Tonawanda, NY
Posts: 9,742
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Who cares what their platforms are?
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the hell does the platform have to do with anything?
It shows a fundamental difference, not between the parties, but between the political attitudes/philosophies/movements: conservatives consistently doing much more corruption & crime, regardless of what party they're in.

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Are you really so naive as to think Democrats won't do the same thing to keep and stay in power in a world where Republicans rig the elections in their states?
There is a reason why you need to resort to future tense there: because it hypothetically could be happening in the present but isn't. But the fact that it isn't and hasn't is not a particularly strong indicator that it will someday. What basis is there to think that things are about to change like that?

Last edited by Delvo; 25th June 2021 at 07:08 AM.
Delvo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 11:06 AM   #385
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
There is a reason why you need to resort to future tense there: because it hypothetically could be happening in the present but isn't.
How do you know it's not happening? There's good evidence, IMO, that no large-scale organized fraud occurred in 2020 - at least, no one has been able to make anything stick, despite a frenzied effort to dig up dirt, and I'm willing to accept that absence of evidence in this case is evidence of absence. But assuming one party is inherently purer? Pah. In an us-vs.-them system, it's going to be very tempting to cheat somehow, perhaps in the name of the "greater good."

If you could vote twice, with a guarantee that you could get away with it, would you? I know I'd be tempted.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 11:17 AM   #386
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
What the hell does the platform have to do with anything? The platform has nothing to do with how parties get into and stay in power. If anything a virtuous platform will justify using election laws and corrupt practices to get and stay in power.
Yeah I agree with you.

But don't you also have some fairly optimistic message amidst that sentiment? Something like the world is progressing; fascism will not win?

Possibly I am thinking of someone completely different.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 11:41 AM   #387
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,324
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
How do you know it's not happening? There's good evidence, IMO, that no large-scale organized fraud occurred in 2020 - at least, no one has been able to make anything stick, despite a frenzied effort to dig up dirt, and I'm willing to accept that absence of evidence in this case is evidence of absence. But assuming one party is inherently purer? Pah. In an us-vs.-them system, it's going to be very tempting to cheat somehow, perhaps in the name of the "greater good."

If you could vote twice, with a guarantee that you could get away with it, would you? I know I'd be tempted.
Rather than some assumed assumption that one party is "purer," it's likely much more useful to actually seriously examine the driving forces in play and nature of the people in question. Personally, I think that taking a hard side here is in error, but it's really not wrong to observe that the current state of the Democratic Party is notably resistant to seizing and abusing power for partisan gain. Not immune, of course, and backlash against GOP's constant evil and power steals could possibly overcome that resistance, but that resistance isn't likely to disappear easily or immediately even if Democrats took over.

If I could vote twice with the guarantee that I could get away with it? After giving it consideration, I probably wouldn't, myself, unless the fundamental concepts in play were changed.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 01:46 PM   #388
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Oh, come on. You made a claim that the Democrats of the 19th century and early 20th century "built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition." When I pointed out a historical fact that the Democrat party of that time was not the same Dem party of today but more aligned with that of the Republicans of today you resort to the above nonsense that has nothing to do with what I said. I said your examples were WRONG and they were. Be an adult and just admit when you're wrong instead of defending a false statement. It won't kill you.
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Who cares what their platforms are? Are you really so naive as to think Democrats won't do the same thing to keep and stay in power in a world where Republicans rig the elections in their states? I'm talking about the tactics used to get into and stay in power. I doubt the party platform would change much even after they started to pass election laws and allow corrupt practices to stay in power.
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? As I already pointed out to you my post had nothing to do with what Democrats might do: it was in reply to your irrelevant claim of two specific past actions that you used as supporting evidence of what you think the Dems might do in the future:

Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
It's happened in this country before. Democrats built corrupt voter turn out schemes to overwhelm the opposition. The saloon system was a massively corrupt ballot harvesting operation (and partially led to Prohibition). I believe the intentions of the Democratic party right now are pure. That is however, the result of having a healthy Republican party. The more sick the Republican party gets and the longer it stays that way, the less pure the Democrats will become. Tammany Hall wasn't really all that long ago.
Those examples are irrelevant because they were the actions of a Democratic Party that is not the same Dem Party of today. The name is the same but that is about the only thing the Dem Party of then has with that of today. As I clearly pointed out to you: The platform of the Dem Party of then is much more in alignment with today's Republican Party which is why your specific examples are irrelevant to today's Dem Party.


It has nothing to do with my being naive as you question. It has to do with HISTORICAL FACT. If you'd stop being so defensive and actually read and understand what I wrote, maybe you'd learn something.

Last edited by Stacyhs; 25th June 2021 at 01:49 PM.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 02:07 PM   #389
Norman Alexander
Penultimate Amazing
 
Norman Alexander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Gundungurra
Posts: 10,866
If you could vote twice successfully, why not 5 or 10 times. Or 100 times. Or thousands of times, enough to win whatever election you wanted to win.
__________________
...our governments are just trying to protect us from terror. In the same way that someone banging a hornets’ nest with a stick is trying to protect us from hornets. Frankie Boyle, Guardian, July 2015
Norman Alexander is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 04:40 PM   #390
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It shows a fundamental difference, not between the parties, but between the political attitudes/philosophies/movements: conservatives consistently doing much more corruption & crime, regardless of what party they're in.

There is a reason why you need to resort to future tense there: because it hypothetically could be happening in the present but isn't. But the fact that it isn't and hasn't is not a particularly strong indicator that it will someday. What basis is there to think that things are about to change like that?
Of course it's future tense. We don't "know" what the Democrats will do in an election environment where Republicans can't hold them credibly accountable.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 04:42 PM   #391
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Do you have a reading comprehension problem? As I already pointed out to you my post had nothing to do with what Democrats might do: it was in reply to your irrelevant claim of two specific past actions that you used as supporting evidence of what you think the Dems might do in the future:



Those examples are irrelevant because they were the actions of a Democratic Party that is not the same Dem Party of today. The name is the same but that is about the only thing the Dem Party of then has with that of today. As I clearly pointed out to you: The platform of the Dem Party of then is much more in alignment with today's Republican Party which is why your specific examples are irrelevant to today's Dem Party.


It has nothing to do with my being naive as you question. It has to do with HISTORICAL FACT. If you'd stop being so defensive and actually read and understand what I wrote, maybe you'd learn something.
Yes, the Democratic Party changed. It can change again. You're silly little idea that it will always change for the better is just naive.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 04:53 PM   #392
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Yeah I agree with you.

But don't you also have some fairly optimistic message amidst that sentiment? Something like the world is progressing; fascism will not win?

Possibly I am thinking of someone completely different.
Human competition without a referee has always been a race to the bottom. The thing that keeps us from left or right fascism is the check. We need the other party to run to us like a toddler with a fully potty chair when they catch the other side from trying to get past the check.

If the Republicans go down the road of securing minority rule through manipulating the levers of power to prevent the check (ie the voters), the check is gone. The Democrats will follow suite. At the point Democrats realize the Republicans can't credibly point out their transgressions, the check is gone.

Democrats will do different things to ensure their hold on their states. If we don't stop the Republicans in Georgia, Texas and a few other places, we lose the check. If we lose the check, we lose the restraint on both Democrats and Republicans.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 06:41 PM   #393
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Yes, the Democratic Party changed. It can change again. You're silly little idea that it will always change for the better is just naive.
Jesus H. Christ. Please point out where I EVER said " it will always change for the better" or anything even remotely resembling that. If you would actually read for comprehension what someone says instead of going on the defensive knee jerk attack you might learn something. Instead you paint yourself into a corner where you can't acknowledge you misunderstood, misinterpreted or were just plain wrong. I'm not naive, especially about politics, so your 'silly little idea' that I am is as wrong as your two irrelevant, misleading historical 'examples of Democrat voter manipulation'.
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 08:03 PM   #394
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
Rather than some assumed assumption that one party is "purer," it's likely much more useful to actually seriously examine the driving forces in play and nature of the people in question. Personally, I think that taking a hard side here is in error, but it's really not wrong to observe that the current state of the Democratic Party is notably resistant to seizing and abusing power for partisan gain.
Is that a feature, or a bug?

Apologies for the cliché.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 08:06 PM   #395
Minoosh
Penultimate Amazing
 
Minoosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 12,465
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Human competition without a referee has always been a race to the bottom. The thing that keeps us from left or right fascism is the check. We need the other party to run to us like a toddler with a fully potty chair when they catch the other side from trying to get past the check.

If the Republicans go down the road of securing minority rule through manipulating the levers of power to prevent the check (ie the voters), the check is gone. The Democrats will follow suite. At the point Democrats realize the Republicans can't credibly point out their transgressions, the check is gone.

Democrats will do different things to ensure their hold on their states. If we don't stop the Republicans in Georgia, Texas and a few other places, we lose the check. If we lose the check, we lose the restraint on both Democrats and Republicans.
Part of me says this isn't my problem; let minorities, young people, whoever step up, get themselves organized and get to the polls with bright shiny state IDs that no one can possibly turn down.

But then I remember. When among fellow white Americans I am very sadly aware that about half of them are deeply racist. I choose the description "racist" over "evil" or a swear word for a reason; I'm trying to use it simply in a descriptive way. Half of my fellow white Americans are deeply afraid of other races, and dread the prospect of becoming something other than a straight-up majority in this country. I live in the Southwest and work with kids and at present live in a heavily black neighborhood, so changing demographics is no big shock to me. I may already be a minority, I haven't checked lately. Apparently it was news to folks in some states. I had thought trying to scare people with Mexicans [ETA: and other ethnicities] had gone out in 2008, but I was wrong.

Last edited by Minoosh; 25th June 2021 at 08:09 PM.
Minoosh is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th June 2021, 10:32 PM   #396
Aridas
Crazy Little Green Dragon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: East Coast, US
Posts: 8,324
Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Is that a feature, or a bug?

Apologies for the cliché.
No apology needed... and the answer to that can very easily be either, depending on what is being looked at. To poke at an example - there's been more than a few complaints that Democrats are unilaterally disarming by trying to get redistricting done by non-partisan committees in the states that they can while Republicans are actively working to gerrymander like crazy in the states that they control to secure their grips on power ever further so that even large majorities voting Democrat will be unable to break their stranglehold. What the Democrats are doing is trying to make things work like they *should* in a system where all parties are working for the long lasting good of the country, which is good, but is an endeavor that's problematic in the face of the GOP, in short, being traitorous and regularly seeking to harm the country to aid their party. Thus the resistance itself is a feature, but like many normally good things there are situations where it may lead to a suboptimal ending, which opens it to being called a bug when those situations arise.
__________________
So sayeth the crazy little dragon.

Last edited by Aridas; 25th June 2021 at 10:36 PM.
Aridas is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2021, 04:50 AM   #397
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: I live in a swamp
Posts: 24,123
Originally Posted by Delvo View Post
It shows a fundamental difference, not between the parties, but between the political attitudes/philosophies/movements: conservatives consistently doing much more corruption & crime, regardless of what party they're in.

There is a reason why you need to resort to future tense there: because it hypothetically could be happening in the present but isn't. But the fact that it isn't and hasn't is not a particularly strong indicator that it will someday. What basis is there to think that things are about to change like that?
How exactly would someone avoid a bad outcome in the future without considering future possibilities?
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2021, 08:18 AM   #398
Delphic Oracle
Philosopher
 
Delphic Oracle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 5,874
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
How exactly would someone avoid a bad outcome in the future without considering future possibilities?
Time is linear and constant.

Right now, in the present and very near future with high probability, suppression tactics are being used.

So a hypothetical concern about suppression by others at some point in the future isn't going to elicit as much concern and attention.

This should not be unexpected.

ETA: the response is the same in either case, anyways.

Overturn suppression attempts in the courts and via public referendum, vote against any politician in favor of them.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 26th June 2021 at 08:21 AM.
Delphic Oracle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2021, 12:27 PM   #399
Stacyhs
Penultimate Amazing
 
Stacyhs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 22,416
Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. And no, what the "Democrats" did pre-mid 1960's doesn't count as I've had to repeatedly explain to Craig4.

Can anyone provide examples of the post 1965 Dem party passing voter suppression laws that come anywhere near those being passed by the GOP now?
Stacyhs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th June 2021, 02:35 PM   #400
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 29,677
The whole argument about what the Democrats might do seems surpassingly odd. Right now, the Democrats are agitating hard against voter suppression, and advocating laws that make voter suppression illegal. Now that happens to align with their interests, just as a movement for redress aligns with the interests of the downtrodden, or one for racial equality aligns with the interests of minority races, or one for truth aligns with the interests of the sane.

Bad ideas align with the interests of some, but so do good ideas.

Maybe there's some philosophicaster's rationale for questioning what is in their souls, or maybe one can cook up a theory about how doing one thing is really the opposite if you look at it through your secret Illuminati decoder ring, but it seems pretty completely irrelevant to discussing the merit of what they are actually doing right now.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » USA Politics

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.