IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

Reply
Old 1st July 2021, 02:58 PM   #1
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Jogging in Georgia while black - The Trial

Mod InfoContinuation thread. First part is here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post13525070.
Posted By:Darat



Mod Info4/11 Moved this to the trials section since the trial has started.
Posted By:Darat



Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was reading a news story, a couple of days ago, about a completely unrelated case and found myself nodding in agreement with what had happened, and then I realized that it had certain parallels with this case that made me very uncomfortable.

In the case of the McMichaels, I have said that the crime was in threatening the jogger. Having done so, the jogger was entitled to self defense, which, in this case, meant that the jogger, Arbery, grabbed Travis McMichael's gun. The fact that McMichael was in danger at that moment is not a valid legal defense, because he had placed himself in that danger by threatening Arbery.



I'm going to have to be slightly coy about the story I read yesterday in order to not poison the well against one of the participants, but the story had a lot of similarities. A man was seen committing a crime. It was not a crime that put anyone in any danger of death or injury. (i.e, there was no element of self defense involved with regards to the suspect.) Two people, having seen the man, grabbed guns, and chased him. Guns were drawn and pointed at the fleeing criminal. One of the people chasing the man got very close, and the fleeing suspect turned and grabbed the gun. While the two struggled for control of the gun, the second person who had been chasing the fleeing suspect fired multiple shots at and hit the suspect. He did not die, but was taken to a hospital in critical condition.

I found myself thinking very positively about the two gun weilding chasers, but then I thought of the incident that sparked this thread, and started asking myself what was so different. Was it only that I started out with an opinion of the McMichaels as Georgia racist rednecks, or was there something truly different?

So, let's get to one obvious difference. In the story I read yesterday, the two people chasing the suspect actually saw the man committing a crime. In the case of the McMichaels, they merely suspected Arbery had committed a crime. (Trespassing, while technically a crime, is really not worth calling a crime, and would never be prosecuted under the circumstance. They suspected Arbery was a thief, not just a trespasser.)

Other than that, there's a lot of similarity. In both cases, the people chasing the suspect were attempting to effect a citizen's arrest. The suspect fled, but when cornered attempted to take the gun from the chaser, and ended up getting shot himself.

It has all of the elements that I said made the McMichaels guilty. The biggest difference was that they were actually witnesses to an actual crime, instead of just believing that they had caught a criminal, but without evidence. Despite that, I found myself thinking that the people from yesterday's story had done a good deed.

No mention of anyone's race was made in the story.

Ok....the rest of the story.

As I said, I didn't want to poison the well. The crime which the man committed was voyeurism and exhibitionism. He was peeping into the window of a 10 year old girl's room, and masturbating. The people chasing him were the girl's parents. The parents did not set out to kill the man, or even shoot him, but they were trying to arrest him so the cops could pick him up. The woman was the one who got close. The criminal grabbed her gun, and the husband shot the guy.

Now, no jury in the world would convict them. An awful lot of people think it would have been ok if they had just plain shot him without ever trying to apprehend him.

Knowing that he is a super-creepy pedophile, we instantly turn against him, but at its heart, here is the same story. If you ask me in advance, I would say use a camera, not a gun. I wouldn't want private citizens going around and pointing guns at people, even if they think those people are criminals. All the arguments I made in the Arbery case would apply in this case as well.

And yet, I feel like the parents in this story did the right thing. Is it just that I actually believe in the guilt of the man they shot, while I don't believe in Arbery's guilt? If the McMichaels had actually caught Arbery stealing, would their actions have been ok? It just made me think about my reaction to the Arbery case versus this one. Is the difference in my reaction just based on a sympathetic view of the people who pulled the guns?

There is a very big difference... the person in this case actually was committing a serious felony punishable by years in prison, and he was actually caught in the act of committing that felony.

In the Santilla Shores jogger case, Arbury, was not committing any crime at all. The McMichaels' and Bryant only thought that he might have been the same guy that might have stolen a gun from McMichaels senior's car some weeks earlier.


Here is how you tell the difference.

Putting aside for a moment the fact that Arbury was black, and that in Georgia, just being Black is regarded by most Rednecks as a crime in and of itself, which of these two; the person in your story, or Arbury, would have presented probable cause to be detained and arrested by a fair and reasonable LEO, and subsequently charged with a felony?

Answer that question, and you answer your question.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by Darat; 4th November 2021 at 01:06 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 03:02 PM   #2
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,070
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I'm going to have to be slightly coy about the story I read yesterday in order to not poison the well against one of the participants, but the story had a lot of similarities. A man was seen committing a crime. It was not a crime that put anyone in any danger of death or injury. (i.e, there was no element of self defense involved with regards to the suspect.)
Reading your summary, my initial reaction was to view the armed chasers in exactly the same way that I viewed the McMichaels' - as overzealous vigilantes who should be condemned for trying to pretend to be the law when they are not.

I still strongly hold that they should NOT have chased the perpetrator with guns. FWIW, I'm pro-gun, and we own several firearms. But you just don't go chasing people with them - they're for sport and for self-defense, not for playing cowboy.

That said... I have some comments regarding the spoilered bit.

I think your assessment that the crime didn't put anyone in danger. Granted, it wasn't impending danger... but it's the kind of behavior that is reasonable to assume represents a danger to their 10 yo child. A grown adult peeping through a window and masturbating to a 10 year old child *is* a danger to that child.

I can understand the parents' inclination to chase and apprehend him, but as you said, I think that photos and video turned over to the police would have been a much better approach. Also, warning to all of the other neighbors in the area.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 04:51 PM   #3
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 36,117
Really?

******* really?

"Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?"

**** that. **** that so much.

And **** "sHOw mE wheRE anYEONe is SAYing ThAT!" even harder.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 05:05 PM   #4
sir drinks-a-lot
Philosopher
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,028
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was reading a news story, a couple of days ago, about a completely unrelated case and found myself nodding in agreement with what had happened, and then I realized that it had certain parallels with this case that made me very uncomfortable.

In the case of the McMichaels, I have said that the crime was in threatening the jogger. Having done so, the jogger was entitled to self defense, which, in this case, meant that the jogger, Arbery, grabbed Travis McMichael's gun. The fact that McMichael was in danger at that moment is not a valid legal defense, because he had placed himself in that danger by threatening Arbery.



I'm going to have to be slightly coy about the story I read yesterday in order to not poison the well against one of the participants, but the story had a lot of similarities. A man was seen committing a crime. It was not a crime that put anyone in any danger of death or injury. (i.e, there was no element of self defense involved with regards to the suspect.) Two people, having seen the man, grabbed guns, and chased him. Guns were drawn and pointed at the fleeing criminal. One of the people chasing the man got very close, and the fleeing suspect turned and grabbed the gun. While the two struggled for control of the gun, the second person who had been chasing the fleeing suspect fired multiple shots at and hit the suspect. He did not die, but was taken to a hospital in critical condition.

I found myself thinking very positively about the two gun weilding chasers, but then I thought of the incident that sparked this thread, and started asking myself what was so different. Was it only that I started out with an opinion of the McMichaels as Georgia racist rednecks, or was there something truly different?

So, let's get to one obvious difference. In the story I read yesterday, the two people chasing the suspect actually saw the man committing a crime. In the case of the McMichaels, they merely suspected Arbery had committed a crime. (Trespassing, while technically a crime, is really not worth calling a crime, and would never be prosecuted under the circumstance. They suspected Arbery was a thief, not just a trespasser.)

Other than that, there's a lot of similarity. In both cases, the people chasing the suspect were attempting to effect a citizen's arrest. The suspect fled, but when cornered attempted to take the gun from the chaser, and ended up getting shot himself.

It has all of the elements that I said made the McMichaels guilty. The biggest difference was that they were actually witnesses to an actual crime, instead of just believing that they had caught a criminal, but without evidence. Despite that, I found myself thinking that the people from yesterday's story had done a good deed.

No mention of anyone's race was made in the story.

Ok....the rest of the story.

As I said, I didn't want to poison the well. The crime which the man committed was voyeurism and exhibitionism. He was peeping into the window of a 10 year old girl's room, and masturbating. The people chasing him were the girl's parents. The parents did not set out to kill the man, or even shoot him, but they were trying to arrest him so the cops could pick him up. The woman was the one who got close. The criminal grabbed her gun, and the husband shot the guy.

Now, no jury in the world would convict them. An awful lot of people think it would have been ok if they had just plain shot him without ever trying to apprehend him.

Knowing that he is a super-creepy pedophile, we instantly turn against him, but at its heart, here is the same story. If you ask me in advance, I would say use a camera, not a gun. I wouldn't want private citizens going around and pointing guns at people, even if they think those people are criminals. All the arguments I made in the Arbery case would apply in this case as well.

And yet, I feel like the parents in this story did the right thing. Is it just that I actually believe in the guilt of the man they shot, while I don't believe in Arbery's guilt? If the McMichaels had actually caught Arbery stealing, would their actions have been ok? It just made me think about my reaction to the Arbery case versus this one. Is the difference in my reaction just based on a sympathetic view of the people who pulled the guns?
An interesting comparison and a pretty good thought experiment to tease out some of the subtleties. And a good job of not poisoning the well (there was more than enough well poisoning to go around in the post after yours).

An additional difference is not only that they knew the guy committed a crime, but that the crime was in progress on their property. Additionally, a case might be made that they wouldn't have felt safe confronting the guy without weapons and they wanted the behavior to end immediately.
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 05:07 PM   #5
sir drinks-a-lot
Philosopher
 
sir drinks-a-lot's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Cole Valley, CA
Posts: 5,028
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?"
As soon as someone comes into the thread and says that, we'll be sure to send them your way!
__________________
I don't like that man. I must get to know him better. --Abraham Lincoln
sir drinks-a-lot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 05:10 PM   #6
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Really?

******* really?

"Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?"

**** that. **** that so much.

And **** "sHOw mE wheRE anYEONe is SAYing ThAT!" even harder.
To be fair, that's pretty much what the original DA was saying when brushing a daylight lynching under the rug, so there's that.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 06:25 PM   #7
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Putting aside for a moment the fact that Arbury was black, and that in Georgia, just being Black is regarded by most Rednecks as a crime in and of itself, which of these two; the person in your story, or Arbury, would have presented probable cause to be detained and arrested by a fair and reasonable LEO, and subsequently charged with a felony?

Answer that question, and you answer your question.
Yes, I see your point. I'm not absolutely certain in the eyes of the law, but it makes sense.


It still seems like it's giving the green light for people to go vigilante on chasing down someone if they are certain that he is a criminal and the police would do the same thing.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 1st July 2021 at 06:28 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 06:29 PM   #8
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Really?

******* really?

"Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?"

**** that. **** that so much.

And **** "sHOw mE wheRE anYEONe is SAYing ThAT!" even harder.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 06:40 PM   #9
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
I found a link to the story of the Peeping Tom. (It's not the same link that I originally read. This one has embedded video.)

https://nypost.com/2021/06/29/texas-...ghters-window/
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st July 2021, 08:32 PM   #10
JimOfAllTrades
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 819
I still think you don't chase someone with guns unless you're willing to kill them. You don't follow someone off your property with the intent to kill them for crimes that are not death penalty crimes.

Don't know if the crime is death penalty crime? Don't follow them with a gun. Scared for your safety while following? Don't follow them.

I feel for the parents here. If I had been that father I might have gone out with a baseball bat and taken my chances with getting charged with assault. Actually I would have wanted to run him down with my car. But I wouldn't. I hope.

If you're going to follow them stay back for your safety. Take pictures, get license plate numbers (apparently not applicable in this case), call the cops and get them following as soon as you can. Tell the cops where the guy is.

But don't go out with a gun unless you intend to kill, and know that if you do you're likely committing murder. Not just some kind of "technically" murder, but actual murder where you are in the wrong and killed someone.
JimOfAllTrades is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 04:58 AM   #11
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Just to bring some balance, here is a story from a few years ago about a father who caught a man in the act of sexually assaulting his 11 year old son, and gave him a brutal beating. (The molester is not a pretty sight on the video)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


The father was not charged at all.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 09:05 AM   #12
Emily's Cat
Rarely prone to hissy-fits
 
Emily's Cat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: The Wettest Desert on Earth
Posts: 17,070
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Really?

******* really?

"Well IN A TOTALLY DIFFERENT SET OF EVENTS a totally different person committed a crime, so isn't the black guy getting shotgunned down in the street sort of okay?"

**** that. **** that so much.

And **** "sHOw mE wheRE anYEONe is SAYing ThAT!" even harder.
That's not at all what Meadmaker said.
__________________
The distance between the linguistic dehumanization of a people and their actual suppression and extermination is not great; it is but a small step. - Haig Bosmajian
Emily's Cat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd July 2021, 01:51 PM   #13
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,307
Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
An interesting comparison and a pretty good thought experiment to tease out some of the subtleties. And a good job of not poisoning the well (there was more than enough well poisoning to go around in the post after yours).

An additional difference is not only that they knew the guy committed a crime, but that the crime was in progress on their property. Additionally, a case might be made that they wouldn't have felt safe confronting the guy without weapons and they wanted the behavior to end immediately.
None of that justifies civilians shooting someone. In Australia the shooters would face serious jail time.

I canít envisage any situation where theft should result in someone getting shot.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 03:15 AM   #14
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
None of that justifies civilians shooting someone. In Australia the shooters would face serious jail time.

I can’t envisage any situation where theft should result in someone getting shot.

Perhaps.

I know for sure that here, while that is the law, getting a jury to convict parents who caught someone sexually abusing their child is a tough ask. The defence lawyer will make absolutely sure that they will do their best to put every juror in the shoes of the defendant - especially if the juror has children of their own.

There have been several cases over the years where farmers or homeowners have shot thieves in the act of stealing on their property, and they were either never charged (because the CP knew the chances of conviction were slim to none), of they were charged, and the jury found them not guilty.

If I'm ever on a jury for a case like this, the farmer/homeowner is getting a not guilty vote from me right from the get-go. It would take a very convincing argument with an extraordinary set of circumstances to change my mind.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 03:32 AM   #15
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,307
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Perhaps.

I know for sure that here, while that is the law, getting a jury to convict parents who caught someone sexually abusing their child is a tough ask. The defence lawyer will make absolutely sure that they will do their best to put every juror in the shoes of the defendant - especially if the juror has children of their own.

There have been several cases over the years where farmers or homeowners have shot thieves in the act of stealing on their property, and they were either never charged (because the CP knew the chances of conviction were slim to none), of they were charged, and the jury found them not guilty.

If I'm ever on a jury for a case like this, the farmer/homeowner is getting a not guilty vote from me right from the get-go. It would take a very convincing argument with an extraordinary set of circumstances to change my mind.
For theft? Seriously?
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 04:02 AM   #16
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
For theft? Seriously?
Ever been burgled?
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 02:21 PM   #17
JimOfAllTrades
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 819
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ever been burgled?
I have, twice. I (and my wife at the time) were very upset and felt quite vulnerable for a time. But I would not have shot at someone for it, even if I had caught them in the act and had a gun available, unless they were actively threatening me or my family.

But not running away, and I wouldn't chase them with a gun. At least I hope I'd be clear headed enough to not do something like that.
JimOfAllTrades is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 02:34 PM   #18
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 48,307
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ever been burgled?
You would chase and shoot a burglar?

In Australia and Iím certain NZ you would end up jailed.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 03:10 PM   #19
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
You would chase and shoot a burglar?
I would threaten him with a firearm.

If he ran away or left, I would not shoot him or go after him.

If, instead of running or leaving, he tried to confront me.. then that is a different story

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
In Australia and I’m certain NZ you would end up jailed.
Homeowner not charged
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/cri...with-homeowner

Farmer shot thieves stealing a quad bike from his shed...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/farmer...GFIR3YEWIDEVY/

... the Police charged him, but after a three day trial, the jury found him not guilty in 15 minutes
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/farmer...GJ6HRB72OJKIA/

As I said, earlier, most times when this happens the police don't charge the farmer/homeowner, and even if they do, its very, very difficult to get a jury to convict. You get someone like me on the jury who can put themselves in the shoes of the homeowner/farmer, and the conviction will fail.

There have been a few of these incidents in this country over the last couple of decades. I cannot recall a single occasion when a thief/intruder/burglar has been shot by the property owner, and the property owner has been convicted.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 4th July 2021 at 03:17 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 03:32 PM   #20
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
I have been part of an armed robbery in a fast food restaurant. At the time, there was a high profile case being tried in the US where someone had shot some suspected criminals.

I found myself thinking that I would be perfectly happy if someone had blown the SOBs that were robbing the place, and holding us hostage while they did it, to kingdom come. On the other hand, I also remember thinking that I hoped no one had a gun and was tempted to try it, because in all likelihood they would fail, at least on the first attempt, and innocent people could be hurt. (Innocent people like me and my girlfriend. My girlfriend was in fact stand about 2 feet away from one of the robbers, who was waving around a gun and telling us to all hold still. If he had decided he needed a hostage, my girlfriend would have been it.)

In the Arbery case, I think Roddy and the McMichaels felt the same way.....except they didn't actually have any substantive reason to believe that Arbery was a criminal.

In the Peeping Tom case, I learned a few things since I first posted the story.
1. The incident happened at 2:00 am.
2. The Peeping Tom was drunk.
3. I watched the video I linked earlier, and saw the street where it happened.

After I learned those things, I wondered if I should have been so quick to assume that the parents' story was actually correct. Was it possible that what actually happened is that a drunk guy was stumbling home from the bar and decided to duck into some bushes and take a leak.

The guy survived, so the investigators will no doubt ask a bunch of questions and see if they can find out more about what was going on, but it goes back to what made me start thinking about the Peeping Tom case in connection with the Arbery case? Why was I so quick to believe the parents' story, and congratulate them, when I was so quick to condemn the McMichaels?
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.

Last edited by Meadmaker; 4th July 2021 at 03:34 PM.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 03:35 PM   #21
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 36,117
What does any of this have to do with Arbery?
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2021, 09:00 PM   #22
JimOfAllTrades
Muse
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 819
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I would threaten him with a firearm.
I still say you don't threaten with a gun unless you're willing to kill, and you don't kill people for theft.

In the Arbery case, they threatened and killed him for suspicion of theft. They are flat out murderers.
JimOfAllTrades is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2021, 11:24 AM   #23
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,622
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I would threaten him with a firearm.

If he ran away or left, I would not shoot him or go after him.
This is what I find interesting about an international forum.

In my US State, you would be guilty of some rather serious crimes if you pointed a gun at someone who was not an imminent threat to your life. The thief would be a petty criminal in the eyes of the law; you would be the felon.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2021, 11:40 AM   #24
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What does any of this have to do with Arbery?
It's just a thought experiment. Feel free to ignore it if those aren't your thing.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 01:29 PM   #25
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 51,738
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ever been burgled?
You have convinced me that Amber Guyger was a reasonable and normal to break into someone else's apartment and gun them down. Really any pretext is enough justification to kill really.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 02:46 PM   #26
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is what I find interesting about an international forum.

In my US State, you would be guilty of some rather serious crimes if you pointed a gun at someone who was not an imminent threat to your life. The thief would be a petty criminal in the eyes of the law; you would be the felon.
This is a generalisation, and apparently, not true in all states...

WA: Shot and killed unarmed intruder...
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...ected-burglar/
... no charges

UT: Homeowner shot and killed intruder...
https://www.heraldextra.com/news/loc...51c9e7cf2.html
... no charges

GA: Homeowner shot and killed intruder...
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/pol...ntruders-death
... no charges

There are literally hundreds of cases just like this in a huge range of US States. They vary between armed and unarmed intruders, intruders confronting homeowners and ones running away, inside and outside the house. No charges against the homeowners seems to be the rule rather than the exception, It varies from state to state, city to city, county to county. It appears to be something of a lottery depending on the DA or the prosecutors' mindset in each jurisdiction.

This next one, from California, seems particularly egregious...

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...126-story.html

The homeowner shot and killed one of two intruders, a woman who was unarmed, and running away. She claimed she was pregnant, but he shot her twice in the back, then dragged her body into his garage in an attempt to lure the other intruder in so he could shoot him too. Yet no charges were laid against the homeowner.

"Greer exercised his legal and legitimate right of self-defense when he shot and killed Andrea Miller" - LA County Deputy Assistant DA Janet Moore

This is California, a liberal left wing state with stricter gun laws that most. How does that fit into your generalisation?
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 03:23 PM   #27
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,622
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
This is a generalisation, and apparently, not true in all states.... How does that fit into your generalisation?
Let's see if you can work out the difference between a generalization and a qualified example. Little hint for you in the hilited part:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is what I find interesting about an international forum.

In my US State, you would be guilty of some rather serious crimes if you pointed a gun at someone who was not an imminent threat to your life. The thief would be a petty criminal in the eyes of the law; you would be the felon.
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 03:39 PM   #28
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Let's see if you can work out the difference between a generalization and a qualified example. Little hint for you in the hilited part:

I know the difference - You didn't give a "qualified example" of a homeowner shooting an intruder in your State.

What State do you live in?
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!

Last edited by smartcooky; 6th July 2021 at 03:40 PM.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 03:50 PM   #29
Warp12
Illuminator
 
Warp12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 3,046
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post

This next one, from California, seems particularly egregious...

https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...126-story.html

The homeowner shot and killed one of two intruders, a woman who was unarmed, and running away. She claimed she was pregnant, but he shot her twice in the back, then dragged her body into his garage in an attempt to lure the other intruder in so he could shoot him too. Yet no charges were laid against the homeowner.

That is egregious...TWO intruders? Way too many.
__________________
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Warp12 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 04:02 PM   #30
Thermal
Penultimate Amazing
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: East Coast USA
Posts: 16,622
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I know the difference - You didn't give a "qualified example" of a homeowner shooting an intruder in your State.

What State do you live in?
Well, to answer your question that you are leaving stand as-is:

Your examples from California, Utah, etc have precisely Jack squat to do with my State, and consequently **** all to do with any generalizations I may or may not have made. Is there a reason you think they should?

Also, under my avatar you can see I live on the East Coast USA. California is sort of the West Coast, so all the more reason for you to have known your examples would have meant squat dick to any East Coast generalization. Though it would be reasonable if you had not memorized US geography, which is fair what with you being in New Zealand. .
__________________
We find comfort among those who agree with us, growth among those who don't -Frank A. Clark

Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect -Mark Twain
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 04:56 PM   #31
mgidm86
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,969
Dear burglars,

There are some things I own that if I caught someone trying to steal from my home I would absolutely stop them with any means necessary, including their death.

You don't get to just walk in and steal the things I have worked so hard and damaged my body for over the years, or steal the things that allow me to work and pay for rent and food. Some of these things are either irreplaceable or more meaningful to me than some piece of crap's life.

My Winnie The Pooh I've had for 53 years and sitting out in my room is more important to me than a burglar's life. Sorry if you don't like that, but maybe you should reconsider robbing people, because we aren't always logical.

I like the threat of death hanging over the heads of would be home burglars. I should consider the safety of someone who would, in a matter of minutes, destroy my life just by walking in and taking stuff? Or worse?

Would they value my life if they surprised me in a dark hallway rather than me surprising them? I would have to assume no. Should I wait to see a gun, or just shoot them?

Was the burglar considering my life when they decided to break into my home and steal the things I work so hard for? No? Then to hell with them. Literally.

I do not own a gun anymore. I do not live in fear. This all has little to do with the thread topic.
__________________
I'm taking a leave of absence in case anyone notices.



Stop feeding the trolls PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!
mgidm86 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 05:05 PM   #32
quadraginta
Becoming Beth
 
quadraginta's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Central Vale of Humility (USA, sort of)
Posts: 26,613
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
<snip>

This is California, a liberal left wing state with stricter gun laws that most. How does that fit into your generalisation?

You're from NZ so this may come as somewhat of a surprise to you, but the state of California is not a homogeneous entity. There are liberals, progressives, conservatives, and outright whacko right-wingnuts.

By way of example, the John Birch Society was born in California. More than a few parts of it are hotbeds of foam-at-the-mouth reactionaries.

Mebbe NZ is more monocultural, but California isn't like that, despite what conservative talk show hosts might want you to believe.
__________________
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."

"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation."
quadraginta is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 05:54 PM   #33
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, to answer your question that you are leaving stand as-is:

Your examples from California, Utah, etc have precisely Jack squat to do with my State, and consequently **** all to do with any generalizations I may or may not have made. Is there a reason you think they should?

Also, under my avatar you can see I live on the East Coast USA. California is sort of the West Coast, so all the more reason for you to have known your examples would have meant squat dick to any East Coast generalization. Though it would be reasonable if you had not memorized US geography, which is fair what with you being in New Zealand. .
You're missing the point.. as usual.

Your claim, you burden to prove. Can you, or can't you, show an example of a homeowner in your state, shooting an unarmed intruder, and then subsequently being charged for the shooting.

Put up or shut up!
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 06:18 PM   #34
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 19,669
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
You're from NZ so this may come as somewhat of a surprise to you, but the state of California is not a homogeneous entity. There are liberals, progressives, conservatives, and outright whacko right-wingnuts.

By way of example, the John Birch Society was born in California. More than a few parts of it are hotbeds of foam-at-the-mouth reactionaries.

Mebbe NZ is more monocultural, but California isn't like that, despite what conservative talk show hosts might want you to believe.
Yes, I am well aware of what California is, and is not. I probably know more about the USA than most USAians know about my country.

I was merely commenting on overall probabilities. The probability that liberal and left-wing attitudes prevail overall in states like California and New York are greater than they would be in say, Texas, Georgia or Florida.
__________________
If you don't like my posts, opinions, or directness then put me on your ignore list. This will benefit both of us; you won't have to take umbrage at my posts, and I won't have to waste time talking to you... simples!
"Woke" is a pejorative term used by racists, bigots and homophobes to describe people who have a properly functioning moral compass!
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2021, 09:11 PM   #35
arthwollipot
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him
 
arthwollipot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 74,444
Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My Winnie The Pooh I've had for 53 years and sitting out in my room is more important to me than a burglar's life.
You don't often see it stated this baldly.
__________________
We are all #KenBehrens
arthwollipot is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2021, 05:45 AM   #36
Myriad
The Clarity Is Devastating
 
Myriad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Betwixt
Posts: 18,462
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
You don't often see it stated this baldly.

Attachment causes suffering.
__________________
A zÝmbie once bit my sister...

Last edited by Myriad; 7th July 2021 at 05:46 AM.
Myriad is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2021, 05:47 AM   #37
JoeMorgue
Self Employed
Remittance Man
 
JoeMorgue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 36,117
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
What does any of this have to do with Arbery?
Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It's just a thought experiment. Feel free to ignore it if those aren't your thing.
Oh you mean pro-racist-murder fan fiction. Got it.
__________________
"When enough people make false promises, words stop meaning anything. Then there are no more answers, only better and better lies." - Jon Snow

"Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid." - Valery Legasov
JoeMorgue is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2021, 07:20 AM   #38
SuburbanTurkey
Penultimate Amazing
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 12,143
It's going to be a busy fall. The Arbery lynch squad goes on trial in mid October, followed by Rittenhouse's double murder and other felonies trial in early November.
__________________
Gobble gobble
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2021, 08:13 AM   #39
Belz...
Fiend God
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In a post-fact world
Posts: 96,875
Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Attachment causes suffering.
And leads to the Dark Side.
__________________
Master of the Shining Darkness

"My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward


Belz... is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2021, 08:24 AM   #40
Meadmaker
Penultimate Amazing
 
Meadmaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27,146
Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Oh you mean pro-racist-murder fan fiction. Got it.
__________________
Proud of every silver medal I've ever received.
Meadmaker is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:19 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.