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Tags Ahmaud Arbery , Georgia incidents , Gregory McMichael , prosecutorial misconduct , racism charges , racism incidents , shooting incidents , Travis McMichael , William Bryan

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Old 7th July 2021, 08:35 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
My Winnie The Pooh I've had for 53 years and sitting out in my room is more important to me than a burglar's life.
Reasonable.
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Old 7th July 2021, 08:37 AM   #42
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I wouldn't kill someone over a TV, although were I able, I might attempt to stop them if they were clearly stealing stuff. However, if I don't know their intentions, I wouldn't take the chance. They are in the process of committing a crime and thus don't get the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 7th July 2021, 08:39 AM   #43
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I wouldn't kill anyone over the (non-living stuff) in my house. I would still (if circumstances warranted, massive amounts of nuance, all that aside) kill someone for being in my house (uninvited, as an intruder, refusing to leave, etc) because I feel that particular act is inherently threatening.

None of this has anything to do with Arbery, even as "thought experiment." It's just more racists murder apologetics.
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Old 7th July 2021, 08:41 AM   #44
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Yeah, sorry for being led into this. Again.
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Old 7th July 2021, 11:22 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Warp12 View Post
Reasonable.
No.
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Old 8th July 2021, 04:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I wouldn't kill anyone over the (non-living stuff) in my house. I would still (if circumstances warranted, massive amounts of nuance, all that aside) kill someone for being in my house (uninvited, as an intruder, refusing to leave, etc) because I feel that particular act is inherently threatening.

None of this has anything to do with Arbery, even as "thought experiment." It's just more racists murder apologetics.
Wait, you think there is some ulterior motive to conflating the actions of victims facing life-threatening crimes with those of Arbery's murderers who were actually the criminals threatening a life in this case?

Say it ain't so!
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Old 8th July 2021, 05:26 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Wait, you think there is some ulterior motive to conflating the actions of victims facing life-threatening crimes with those of Arbery's murderers who were actually the criminals threatening a life in this case?

Say it ain't so!
Noooo....

I totes believe that someone just up and decided that this thread was the perfect place for a totally unrelated "thought experiment."
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Old 8th July 2021, 05:31 AM   #48
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I really is shocking the half-assed, self serving lies these murderers told and were accepted at face value by the local DA. I know they have already lost their election and are out of office, but what a truly ghastly example of either corruption or incompetence. It's a real injustice that there's no criminal liability for this obvious dereliction of duty.

The lynch mob's story is going to absolutely collapse during trial. Even the mildest bit of prodding reveals the massive legal holes in their argument and makes it plain that their actions were blatantly criminal. Prosecutors are going into this trial on easy mode.

Maybe surprise isn't the right word, because we all know how terrible the justice system is in this country, but it still shocks the conscience to see a daylight murder getting pencil-whipped away as "self-defense" like this.

They were so very close to getting away with it. If these freaks could have used a bit of restraint and stopped bragging about their snuff film, they would be free men.
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Old 8th July 2021, 06:13 AM   #49
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Little Law

Just to add a little law on why it is so hard to charge homeowners in the U.S.:

Not only do you have to prove the underlying crime, be it murder or some type of assault beyond a reasonable doubt, you must disprove self-defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Some jurisdictions left it to the defendant to prove beyond a preponderance of evidence standard that the act was committed in self-defense, but this was ruled as impermissible burden shifting and therefore the prosecution must now prove the crime and disprove self-defense.

In my jurisdiction "homicide" consists of:

- Murder in the 1st Degree (requires specific intent to kill, intent can be formed in a second)

- Murder in the Second Degree (aka, felony killing, a killing committed in the course of committing a crime)

- Murder in the 3rd Degree (all other forms of murder, does not require specific intent to kill, but actor acts with depraved heart without regard for human life)

- Voluntary manslaughter (heat of passion, imperfect self-defense)

- Involuntary manslaughter (doing an act in a grossly negligent or reckless manner)


Self-Defense contains a subjective and objective element. The actor himself must believe himself to be in fear of death or serious bodily injury AND that belief must be reasonable given the circumstances.

Many states have codified the 'castle doctrine' which in variations state that a "burglar" or someone who has broken into a home, has done so with 'evil' intent, i.e., it is assumed for the purpose of the law that the individual standing in your home means you harm. Further, you have no duty to retreat, it is your home.

Some states have further codified the 'stand your ground' doctrine, which more or less states that if you are in public doing a lawful act you have no duty to retreat even if you have the means and opportunity to do so.

Combine ALL this, and it makes it extremely difficult to prosecute except in the most outrageous cases and then usually all you get is voluntary manslaughter.

Caveat: While I am an expert in my jurisdiction, your mileage may vary.
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Old 8th July 2021, 06:25 AM   #50
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Arbury was gunned down in the street and the property the murders claimed they where protecting wasn't even theirs to begin with.

Why is everyone trying to bring castle defense into this?
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Old 8th July 2021, 06:34 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Noooo....

I totes believe that someone just up and decided that this thread was the perfect place for a totally unrelated "thought experiment."
Your keen insight into human nature is surely unbounded. Here I was thinking I could slip my racist murder apologetics past you, and while that might have worked with a few of the lesser mortals who populate this place, I forgot that JowMorgue was here and would surely call me out for what it is.

I have met my match, and surely there is no point in attempting to further deceive you with phony explanations. I bow to your greater knowledge.
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Old 8th July 2021, 06:37 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your keen insight into human nature is surely unbounded. Here I was thinking I could slip my racist murder apologetics past you, and while that might have worked with a few of the lesser mortals who populate this place, I forgot that JowMorgue was here and would surely call me out for what it is.

I have met my match, and surely there is no point in attempting to further deceive you with phony explanations. I bow to your greater knowledge.
Self-awareness is a big first step. Good luck on your journey of self-improvement.
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Old 8th July 2021, 06:51 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Your keen insight into human nature is surely unbounded. Here I was thinking I could slip my racist murder apologetics past you, and while that might have worked with a few of the lesser mortals who populate this place, I forgot that JowMorgue was here and would surely call me out for what it is.

I have met my match, and surely there is no point in attempting to further deceive you with phony explanations. I bow to your greater knowledge.
The internet tough guy routine would sell better if hidden anywhere in it was an actual logical defense that suggests you were doing anything but that.
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Old 8th July 2021, 07:12 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I really is shocking the half-assed, self serving lies these murderers told and were accepted at face value by the local DA. I know they have already lost their election and are out of office, but what a truly ghastly example of either corruption or incompetence. It's a real injustice that there's no criminal liability for this obvious dereliction of duty.

The lynch mob's story is going to absolutely collapse during trial. Even the mildest bit of prodding reveals the massive legal holes in their argument and makes it plain that their actions were blatantly criminal. Prosecutors are going into this trial on easy mode.

Maybe surprise isn't the right word, because we all know how terrible the justice system is in this country, but it still shocks the conscience to see a daylight murder getting pencil-whipped away as "self-defense" like this.

They were so very close to getting away with it. If these freaks could have used a bit of restraint and stopped bragging about their snuff film, they would be free men.
That would have been bad enough, but the DA went well beyond simply accepting their statements, he provided the covering lies to why prosecution shouldn't go ahead.
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Old 8th July 2021, 07:14 AM   #55
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I don't think Meadmaker's post was apologetic, but I don't think it was a relevant example, nor was it a hypothetical.

Perhaps Mead is willing to clarify what it was supposed to help with in this thread.
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Old 8th July 2021, 07:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You're missing the point.. as usual.

Your claim, you burden to prove. Can you, or can't you, show an example of a homeowner in your state, shooting an unarmed intruder, and then subsequently being charged for the shooting.

Put up or shut up!
Dude, you're impossible.

You claimed that you would "threaten robbers with a gun". The word you used was in fact THREATEN.

While it is a generalization on my part, it's a statutory one. Saying you intend to threaten someone with a gun in my State (NJ USA) falls somewhere on the brandishing/aggravated assault spectrum. I thought it was interesting that other countries would condone this, assuming you are not advocating criminality.

You respond with a couple counter examples from unrelated states, for whatever reason.

Now you expect me to dig up a couple anecdotes for you, when I was talking about the legality of the action, not the conviction rate.

Btw, here in NJ we laugh about how liberal other states are in their treatment of firearms. I believe we have literally the most restrictive in the nation.
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Old 8th July 2021, 08:51 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Btw, here in NJ we laugh about how liberal other states are in their treatment of firearms. I believe we have literally the most restrictive in the nation.
California takes that cake, but you guys are definitely in the top 5.

I am genuinely interested to see if the Arbery's are going to stick with self-defense or change it up. The self-defense is going to be tough to stick with in this case, and given they weren't on any of their own property then I'm not sure what they were defending.
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Old 8th July 2021, 08:55 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
California takes that cake, but you guys are definitely in the top 5.

I am genuinely interested to see if the Arbery's are going to stick with self-defense or change it up. The self-defense is going to be tough to stick with in this case, and given they weren't on any of their own property then I'm not sure what they were defending.
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of pleading out.

Georgia is a death penalty state, and the facts of the case absolutely support a capital murder charge.
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Old 8th July 2021, 08:55 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
California takes that cake, but you guys are definitely in the top 5.

I am genuinely interested to see if the ArberyMcMicheal's are going to stick with self-defense or change it up. The self-defense is going to be tough to stick with in this case, and given they weren't on any of their own property then I'm not sure what they were defending.
ftfy. Too many people conflating the perps with the victim can make it easy to make that honest mistake. Which is probably why they've been doing so...
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:01 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
California takes that cake, but you guys are definitely in the top 5.
Jersey has no carry at all, open or concealed of any firearms, and here even a hardware store BB gun is considered a long gun and is regulated like an AR -15. Cali, Mass, and the other notoriously tough states, IIRC, allow some forms of carry. I guess it depends on what parts you consider the most restrictive.

Quote:
I am genuinely interested to see if the Arbery's are going to stick with self-defense or change it up. The self-defense is going to be tough to stick with in this case, and given they weren't on any of their own property then I'm not sure what they were defending.
They could theoretically claim personal self defense, but their carry would have to be legal. That was one of my first questions ITT, whether carrying 'at the ready', as opposed to slung, would be considered legal open carry. If it is, they could kinda sorta try self defense, but I think their provocation would negate it solidly.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:20 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
ftfy. Too many people conflating the perps with the victim can make it easy to make that honest mistake. Which is probably why they've been doing so...
Much appreciated. I should have been more diligent, was typing what I was reading at the time.

Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I'm surprised there hasn't been more talk of pleading out.

Georgia is a death penalty state, and the facts of the case absolutely support a capital murder charge.
As we saw with the George Floyd case, it's possible that the defendants are trying to plead out but they're waiting for Federal buy-in. If the plea doesn't coincide with the feds then the feds can get them on hate crimes too. Chauvin is facing that in real-time and I'd think the McMicheal's realize that. The wheels move slow, but I'd be shocked if there wasn't some sort of, at the very least, realistic attempt at a plea before the trial. Then again, the prosecutors and Feds could be going for the head too. Punish them severely to make an example out of them. Ironic considering how black people have been treated in our justice system throughout the years.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
They could theoretically claim personal self defense, but their carry would have to be legal. That was one of my first questions ITT, whether carrying 'at the ready', as opposed to slung, would be considered legal open carry. If it is, they could kinda sorta try self defense, but I think their provocation would negate it solidly.
Yeah, as I've been saying in the Rittenhouse thread, it's really tough to claim self-defense when you initiate the confrontation.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:23 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Yeah, as I've been saying in the Rittenhouse thread, it's really tough to claim self-defense when you initiate the confrontation.
Protecting others can be seen as self-defense as well, I think, so it's not completely crazy to expect them to try to claim that they were protecting their community.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:26 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Protecting others can be seen as self-defense as well, I think, so it's not completely crazy to expect them to try to claim that they were protecting their community.
Not completely crazy, no. It might even have merit. But they would still have to overcome the hurdle of brandishing versus carrying. I think that should be too big a hurdle to successfully use as a defense.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:33 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Not completely crazy, no. It might even have merit. But they would still have to overcome the hurdle of brandishing versus carrying. I think that should be too big a hurdle to successfully use as a defense.
I dont think that's really going to be relevant. It's probably in their best interests to try to paint the murder as a single, charged encounter at the side of the road, but the totality of the facts already establishes that the lynch squad was engaged in lawless aggression well before McMichael stepped out of his truck.

The physical evidence is quite clear that the three men assaulted Arbery with their trucks and were engaged in a coordinated, felonious attempt of unlawfully imprison or otherwise assault him. I suspect it's going to be very easy for the prosecutors to establish the fact that they were unlawful aggressors well before the fatal moment seen on the widely circulated video.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:45 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Protecting others can be seen as self-defense as well, I think, so it's not completely crazy to expect them to try to claim that they were protecting their community.
I mean, not really. Everything changed when Arbery tried to flee. Once he was leaving the neighborhood I can't imagine seeing it as "protecting their community" when the video shows them taking active steps to prohibit his escape. There was nobody threatened at all, anywhere. There couldn't have been and since Ahmed had nothing in his hands there was no way he stole anything.

You're right in that it's not completely crazy, but any defense attorney worth his weight in used toilet paper would tell them what their chances are with that defense.

Maybe if Ahmed was just coming out of the house. It's the chase that changes everything imo.
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Old 8th July 2021, 10:53 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I mean, not really. Everything changed when Arbery tried to flee. Once he was leaving the neighborhood I can't imagine seeing it as "protecting their community" when the video shows them taking active steps to prohibit his escape. There was nobody threatened at all, anywhere. There couldn't have been and since Ahmed had nothing in his hands there was no way he stole anything.

You're right in that it's not completely crazy, but any defense attorney worth his weight in used toilet paper would tell them what their chances are with that defense.

Maybe if Ahmed was just coming out of the house. It's the chase that changes everything imo.
Hey, I said not completely. It's still crazy.
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Old 2nd September 2021, 10:58 PM   #67
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Georgia DA Jackie Johnson has been indicted

The Georgia prosecutor who failed to properly investigate the murder of Arbery has now been indicted for obstructing law enforcement and failing to uphold her oath of office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...da-indictment/

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Old 2nd September 2021, 11:59 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Georgia prosecutor who failed to properly investigate the murder of Arbery has now been indicted for obstructing law enforcement and failing to uphold her oath of office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...da-indictment/

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Good news. I don't recall her role, but I do recall that there were a number of people in the DA's office and the State office that swept this the under the rug and they should be held accountable.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 12:41 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by DevilsAdvocate View Post
Good news. I don't recall her role, but I do recall that there were a number of people in the DA's office and the State office that swept this the under the rug and they should be held accountable.
She was the Brunswick DA; the buck stopped with her. She was the first one who tried to cover it all up, and then she covered her arse by recusing herself. The next one to try to do a cover up was prosecutor George Barnhill, the Waycross DA, who said that the three [the McMichaels' and Bryant] had "solid first hand probable cause" to pursue Arbery, a "burglary suspect," and stop him. Then he recused himself and the case was handed to a third prosecutor, Thomas Durden, who was going to convene a Grand Jury before the GBI took over the case, and almost immediately arrested the McMichaels. I would say Barnhill will be in the gun as well at some point.

Had it not been for the "sheer genius" of those three rednecks who showed the video thinking it would justify their actions rather than display their culpability in murder, no-one would ever have known what these scumbag corrupt officials did.

Makes me wonder how many other times the course of justice has been perverted because white officials swept the murder of a back man by white thugs under the carpet.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 05:07 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Georgia prosecutor who failed to properly investigate the murder of Arbery has now been indicted for obstructing law enforcement and failing to uphold her oath of office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...da-indictment/

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I AGREE
About ******* time.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 05:26 AM   #71
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Prosecutors get wide discretion that is often unreviewable, but the obvious corruption in this case is beyond the pale.

Glad this turd is finally getting hammered.
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Old 3rd September 2021, 09:29 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Georgia prosecutor who failed to properly investigate the murder of Arbery has now been indicted for obstructing law enforcement and failing to uphold her oath of office.
Excellent!
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Old 5th September 2021, 07:46 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Prosecutors get wide discretion that is often unreviewable, but the obvious corruption in this case is beyond the pale.

Glad this turd is finally getting hammered.
Corruption? Was there a quid pro quo?
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Old 5th September 2021, 08:49 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Corruption?
Yes.

Corruption isn't always about money. It can be about lobbying, cronyism, nepotism, parochialism, patronage and influence peddling. In this case, I would say influence peddling might apply.

Influence peddling: The practice of using one's authority, or influence with people in authority, to get favours or preferential treatment for another person, often but not always for money.


Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Was there a quid pro quo?
Yes. Letting her friends, the white ex-cop and his son get away with a murder.
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Old 7th September 2021, 04:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Corruption? Was there a quid pro quo?
I meant this in the more broad sense that smartcooky so aptly described. I have no reason to be believe that money changed hands, or that people even met in shady rooms to conspire, but rather that the DA used her authority in a way that was contrary to the purpose of her office. A DA using their broad authority to sweep murders under the rug is corruption. Whether the corruption in this case was motivated by a prior personal relationship, a racial prejudice, or undue deference to former cops and/or vigilantes is hard to say.

Authority comes with certain responsibilities, and egregious enough dereliction of that duty can, and should, be treated as criminal.
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Old 9th September 2021, 11:29 AM   #76
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Mugshot just dropped of this turd of a DA that got arrested trying to sweep a lynching under the rug.

Quote:
This is the mugshot of disgraced District Attorney Jackie Johnson who was just arrested today for her role in the coverup of the murder of Ahmaud Arbery.
https://twitter.com/MerrittForTexas/...91861746855937

She seems unhappy.
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Old 9th September 2021, 11:33 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Mugshot just dropped of this turd of a DA that got arrested trying to sweep a lynching under the rug.



https://twitter.com/MerrittForTexas/...91861746855937

She seems unhappy.
She looks like she's in the middle of saying something... "Do you know who I am?"
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Old 9th September 2021, 11:56 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
She looks like she's in the middle of saying something... "Do you know who I am?"
"Is there a manager or someone in charge I can speak to? DON'T TAKE ME PICTURE!"
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Old 9th September 2021, 01:29 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
"Is there a manager or someone in charge I can speak to? DON'T TAKE ME PICTURE!"
Isn't her name "Jackie" though?
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Old 15th September 2021, 09:32 AM   #80
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This one slipped past me, from Aug 31:

Quote:
Defense attorneys representing the three men charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery cannot present evidence at trial of Arbery’s past run-ins with the law, a judge has ruled.

Superior Court Judge Timothy Walmsley’s decision is a big victory for prosecutors, who had strongly opposed the defense attempts to get Arbery’s past “bad acts” before a jury. This essentially would have put the slain Arbery on trial.
https://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-new...GOC6JRZBRL2YY/


Defense won't be allowed to smear murder victim for unrelated prior history of petty criminal conduct.
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